The Big Cat Posted December 2, 2013 Posted December 2, 2013 Ah…thanks. I hope he wasn't trying to coddle Stevie. I assume his talk with him this week would be different. Hopefully more Parcells-like. Catch the ball, hold the ball or your gone. It rather strikes me as a fact finding mission. Is this kid full of ****? Can he be reached? I'm sure he got his answer following the conversation. I won't speculate what that answer was, nor whether the events of last evening further impacted it.
Jauronimo Posted December 2, 2013 Posted December 2, 2013 (edited) I'm what the drones call a 'human.' I observe things and interpret them. Cool. I interpreted the very same information, believe it or not. I stopped short of the part where you said "since X happened and Y happened, Y must have happened because of X...because...they both happened" since thats just asinine, but I did consider all the available information. I guess you would interpret that to mean I'm not human? To clarify, are you sticking with the "I told you so" gambit or have you adopted the "its just a message board, bro" position? Edited December 2, 2013 by Jauronimo
reddogblitz Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 I'm not so sure the immaturity relates to being a choker. Michael Irvin was one of the most immature WRs in NFL history and also the most clutch. Jackie Smith was a mature stand up guy yet choked by dropping a sure TD in SB XIII. Speaking of Michael Irvin, after the Pitt drop when they showed the highlight, he said "it's not how many catches you make or how many yards you get, it's do you make the big catch when the games on the line?" SJ don't and never has. I just saw the highlight of the 3rd down drop in the 4th Q in the Patsies home opener game today for the fist time. A total catchable ball dropped ending an important drive. Marrone was about 5 yards away and threw his hat. So he's now seen SJ blow plays that were instrumental in 2 of our losses. I'm not so sure SJ will be back next year. Marrone's start this year has not been so good. He's gotta pick up big time next year or he'll be close to his exit the following year. Does he want to risk his career on SJ dropping more clutch passes next year? He says he holds his players accountable. What does that mean exactly?
#34fan Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Having vices does not make one immature by default. I think Irvin knew that he had to produce on the field... He knew his job was to win, and made no bones about it. Stevie, by contrast, seems to think he's there to spin footballs, and do dumb end-zone celebrations... There's no quality control, no discipline, no professionalism, and very little focus. You can be good at your job, and still struggle with ho's and cocaine. I don't recommend Steve go out and start a 300 dollar a day habit, but at this point, he isn't consistent enough to be a #1 or even a #2 wide receiver. Stevie, this is your brain on spoiled, self-centered, narcissistic, thinking... Any questions?
Maury Ballstein Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 (edited) So big cat called it ? He predicted that a Falcons db would make a play due to Stevie's USS FUKHMORE shirt ? You da man big cat ! Pull up your Scott chandler files, I need to understand why chandler fumbled. Edited December 4, 2013 by Ryan L Billz
NoSaint Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Having vices does not make one immature by default. I think Irvin knew that he had to produce on the field... He knew his job was to win, and made no bones about it. Stevie, by contrast, seems to think he's there to spin footballs, and do dumb end-zone celebrations... There's no quality control, no discipline, no professionalism, and very little focus. You can be good at your job, and still struggle with ho's and cocaine. I don't recommend Steve go out and start a 300 dollar a day habit, but at this point, he isn't consistent enough to be a #1 or even a #2 wide receiver. Stevie, this is your brain on spoiled, self-centered, narcissistic, thinking... Any questions? Maturity is such a vague word, it's set up to fail in a debate like this. If you get into more specific traits it definitely helps make the discussion more worthwhile. Kind of like the broad term "character" vs the more focused "football character"
Fan in Chicago Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 (edited) Maturity is such a vague word, it's set up to fail in a debate like this. If you get into more specific traits it definitely helps make the discussion more worthwhile. Kind of like the broad term "character" vs the more focused "football character" What got lost in the muddy fist fight about the connection between immaturity & performance, is the fact that Stevie has proven himself over and over again as not being a clutch player. As one who will give you good statistical performances, yet let you down in key moments. If he caught that pass and we won, it would be hailed as one of his finest games due to the rest of his day. Setting aside his off-field behavior, purely on the basis of his in-game performances, I would get a big strong WR next year. Then renegotiate Stevie's contract, relegate him to the #3 role and preferably not have him on the field on key downs (keep said new WR, Woods, GOodwin and a new TE as catching options during critical moments) Edited December 4, 2013 by Fan in Chicago
Jauronimo Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Maturity is such a vague word, it's set up to fail in a debate like this. If you get into more specific traits it definitely helps make the discussion more worthwhile. Kind of like the broad term "character" vs the more focused "football character" Nebulous terms are an obstacle. Any argument which rests on previously undocumented relationships between personality traits and football outcomes is highly suspect. As long as that argument stays in the territory of opinion and speculation, its all fine discussion.
The Big Cat Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Nebulous terms are an obstacle. Any argument which rests on previously undocumented relationships between personality traits and football outcomes is highly suspect. As long as that argument stays in the territory of opinion and speculation, its all fine discussion. Rather than criticize how some of us have defined Stevie's behavior, why don't you offer more specific terms than 'immaturity?'
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Since a lot of fans think Stevie is a problem, let's ship him to NE for a 5th. Let them deal with that POS.
The Big Cat Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Since a lot of fans think Stevie is a problem, let's ship him to NE for a 5th. Let them deal with that POS. Remind me again who's making a legitimate push for this?
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Remind me again who's making a legitimate push for this? Trust me, I know Stevie has his warts. But imagine you switched Brady and Fitz. SJ would a pro bowler with Brady. I hate his drops and that fumble was a killer. But he is hardly the only wr to have drops. We have a talented player we have developed and people want to run him out of town? The only way we're improving on SJ is if we can get Mike Evans.
Jauronimo Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Rather than criticize how some of us have defined Stevie's behavior, why don't you offer more specific terms than 'immaturity?' It doesn't matter what terms you use unless there's a demonstrable relationship between said personality descriptor and events on the field. I wasn't among those who were trying to draw a link between SJ's off the field behavior and a few key drops. The reason I refrained from such discussion is because there is no reason to believe that one is at all causal of the other (i.e., a relationship). The reason I'm not going to participate in this futile exercise now is because I can't think of ANY personality trait which is predictive of success in key sporting situations. I'm all for speculation and amateur psychoanalysis. I do it all the time. But when you say that SJ's fumble is now vindication of your USS Fukhmore, Kim Jong Un, Stevie Johnson Drop (fumble) theory, then I have to ask whether or not you're aware that you can't support any relationship between his off the field antics and performance in key situations. And you continue to miss this very simple point. The only reason I'm still having this discussion is because I know that you're not stupid and I have faith that you will see the causality issues at play here. This isn't an argument of semantics. You were right to be concerned about how SJ would perform in future key moments, but not for any of the reasons you offered. Outcomes do not change the fact there is a logical gap between off the field antics and on the field performance. In my opinion, there is only one predictor of how someone will perform in crucial moments and that is how they've performed in clutch situations in the past. Therefore, I think SJ will come up short again at some point in the future when it matters because he has a history of doing just that. There's a nice, neat little theory. Next time SJ craps the bed when it matters most, I can dig up this post and tell everyone off because you cannot dispute the very clear relationship between what hes done in key situations and what he just did in a key situation. Amazing.
The Big Cat Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 It doesn't matter what terms you use unless there's a demonstrable relationship between said personality descriptor and events on the field. I wasn't among those who were trying to draw a link between SJ's off the field behavior and a few key drops. The reason I refrained from such discussion is because there is no reason to believe that one is at all causal of the other (i.e., a relationship). The reason I'm not going to participate in this futile exercise now is because I can't think of ANY personality trait which is predictive of success in key sporting situations. I'm all for speculation and amateur psychoanalysis. I do it all the time. But when you say that SJ's fumble is now vindication of your USS Fukhmore, Kim Jong Un, Stevie Johnson Drop (fumble) theory, then I have to ask whether or not you're aware that you can't support any relationship between his off the field antics and performance in key situations. And you continue to miss this very simple point. The only reason I'm still having this discussion is because I know that you're not stupid and I have faith that you will see the causality issues at play here. This isn't an argument of semantics. You were right to be concerned about how SJ would perform in future key moments, but not for any of the reasons you offered. Outcomes do not change the fact there is a logical gap between off the field antics and on the field performance. In my opinion, there is only one predictor of how someone will perform in crucial moments and that is how they've performed in clutch situations in the past. Therefore, I think SJ will come up short again at some point in the future when it matters because he has a history of doing just that. There's a nice, neat little theory. Next time SJ craps the bed when it matters most, I can dig up this post and tell everyone off because you cannot dispute the very clear relationship between what hes done in key situations and what he just did in a key situation. Amazing. Relevant question: what was the highest level you participated in organized sports?
Jauronimo Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Relevant question: what was the highest level you participated in organized sports? Irrelevant, and the collegiate level. Whether I played professional sports or never left the couch doesn't change the fact that your argument contains a logical leap as I've already described in excruciating detail. Relevant questions: what don't you understand about causality? What don't you understand about how when you say "I think SJ is immature, therefore I think he will drop passes in key moments in the future" that you have to be able to support a relationship between his maturity and outcomes on the field? Why are you being so very dense? I've already provided a wealth of examples of immature athletes with a history of questionable behavior who come through when the game is on the line. I've also provided examples of mature choke cases. Is the maturity-clutch theory you're advancing specific only to SJ?
RuntheDamnBall Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Michael Jordan punched a teammate in the mouth (Steve Kerr) and was a raving a--hole. But he was so damn good at basketball it really didn't matter.
Jauronimo Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Michael Jordan punched a teammate in the mouth (Steve Kerr) and was a raving a--hole. But he was so damn good at basketball it really didn't matter. MJ was so very mature that he took time out of his hall of fame induction speech to settle the score with his old CYA coach who didn't give him enough minutes when he was 10, ripped bugs bunny for not passing enough in Space Jam, and then waved his dick at the world for not drafting him first overall, yet who would you rather have take the final shot?
The Big Cat Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Irrelevant, and the collegiate level. Whether I played professional sports or never left the couch doesn't change the fact that your argument contains a logical leap as I've already described in excruciating detail. Relevant questions: what don't you understand about causality? What don't you understand about how when you say "I think SJ is immature, therefore I think he will drop passes in key moments in the future" that you have to be able to support a relationship between his maturity and outcomes on the field? Why are you being so very dense? I've already provided a wealth of examples of immature athletes with a history of questionable behavior who come through when the game is on the line. I've also provided examples of mature choke cases. Is the maturity-clutch theory you're advancing specific only to SJ? It's very relevant. If--in fact--you competed at that level, then you should understand the granular connection between a guy's attitude and his performance. Period. It's not a logical leap at all. If you think Stevie's a mature, focused, level-headed leader, then fine. But you're not. Nobody is. Instead, we have two pools of behavior to draw from. His clownish on/off the field antics and his knack for finding a way to !@#$ up at the least opportune times. If--in fact--you competed at the collegiate level (I'm assuming you're not referring to club/intramural sports), then you've probably had some reliable teammates along the way, and you've had some unreliable ones, too. And you'd know that their performance in the clutch is not only predictable, but directly tied to the kind of person they are when not playing. So, you're welcomed to completely dismiss Stevie's non-football antics. But if you're going to acknowledge them, you can't possibly make the argument that they have nothing to do with his ability to focus and perform when it matters most. MJ was so very mature that he took time out of his hall of fame induction speech to settle the score with his old CYA coach who didn't give him enough minutes when he was 10, ripped bugs bunny for not passing enough in Space Jam, and then waved his dick at the world for not drafting him first overall, yet who would you rather have take the final shot? Speaking of logical leaps: Stevie gets a pass...because Michael !@#$ing Jordan acted like an !@#$!? This is teetering on Godwin's law.
RuntheDamnBall Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 Speaking of logical leaps: Stevie gets a pass...because Michael !@#$ing Jordan acted like an !@#$!? This is teetering on Godwin's law. If the point is that personal maturity is not a pure indicator of athletic success, I fail to see how it isn't relevant. Irvin, Keyshawn Johnson, T.O., Moss, plenty of other receivers have been known for "antics" and still had long and productive NFL careers where they succeeded in the clutch. At times, they didn't. But they are all known as great receivers. I'd like for Stevie to tone it down but mostly because of the optics of it - I think it ratchets up the pressure and is a distraction, brings unwanted attention and then makes it 1000x worse when he does fail. This discussion, case in point. But I don't think anyone can prove that there's a real correlation, because individual examples can be pointed to to display that there hasn't been any correlation. The Jordan example is just one of many where a bad teammate is actually an effective team leader because his teammates respect his play THAT much. If, on the day Stevie leaves, other teammates open up about a perceived lack of commitment - or if that happens earlier on based on some team-wise dissent, then and only then can we really point to it. Till then, you have to go with the fact that they keep throwing the dude the ball, and they keep trying to rely on him. It's all we've got.
The Big Cat Posted December 4, 2013 Posted December 4, 2013 If the point is that personal maturity is not a pure indicator of athletic success, I fail to see how it isn't relevant. Irvin, Keyshawn Johnson, T.O., Moss, plenty of other receivers have been known for "antics" and still had long and productive NFL careers where they succeeded in the clutch. At times, they didn't. But they are all known as great receivers. I'd like for Stevie to tone it down but mostly because of the optics of it - I think it ratchets up the pressure and is a distraction, brings unwanted attention and then makes it 1000x worse when he does fail. This discussion, case in point. But I don't think anyone can prove that there's a real correlation, because individual examples can be pointed to to display that there hasn't been any correlation. The Jordan example is just one of many where a bad teammate is actually an effective team leader because his teammates respect his play THAT much. If, on the day Stevie leaves, other teammates open up about a perceived lack of commitment - or if that happens earlier on based on some team-wise dissent, then and only then can we really point to it. Till then, you have to go with the fact that they keep throwing the dude the ball, and they keep trying to rely on him. It's all we've got. Except Jordan's "antics" were traits often associated with people who are compulsively successful. He had/has an insatiable motor. His negative qualities are precisely what you want in a competitor. Irvin's were similar. Blow and hookers. Illegal, yes, but hardly relevant to a discussion about a guy whose major transgressions are those of a irreverent teenager. As for Key, Moss and TO: how many combined rings? Are we conveniently forgetting how all three of them had careers that each just fizzled out with a veritable dearth of fanfare? It's all a wash though since I wouldn't liken Stevie's childish behavior to any of these guys.
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