Why isn't anyone talking about Stevie?

[Braedenstearns]

Doesn't look like he will make it this year.

 

 

If this is already being discussed, you can delete this one. I didn't see one.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Braedenstearns

[Fixxxer]

At last, someone talking about Stevie.

[mrags]

Unless he gets on a huge streak of monster games it won't happen. Although, with Marquise showing defenses a big threat, and Woods coming back, he could be open underneath much more than earlier in the year. I'm betting against 1,000 yards at this point but the deep threat should be considered when talking about his projections.

[thebandit27]

Stevie Johnson 5 Dropped Passes - Harsh TV Crew - YouTube

 

Tim Graham: Does Stevie Johnson Really Have a Drop Problem?

 

You protest far too much

 

Thanks for the link...Tim Graham is wrong by the way:

 

https://www.profootb...rop-percentage/

 

PFF doesn't actually show every players' season totals for drops in the article he's referencing, but it's plainly obvious that--just from reading the chart--Stevie isn't tied for the league lead in drops (given that at least one player--Welker--had more)...makes me wonder what else Tim Graham might have wrong. That's not to say that Johnson didn't drop too many balls in 2010; he did. My point to you is that his drop issue is neither (a) a chronic one that's played out from season-to-season, or (b) measurably greater than some of the best WRs in the game.

 

And again, I'd like to hear your take on the multiple other points I've made, as you seem to be ignoring them in order to focus on number of drops.

Edited November 26, 2013 by thebandit27

[dascottbills28]

Injuries and instability at the quarterback position have likely derailed any chance that he gets to a 1000 yards. He does usually seem to finish out seasons pretty strong so I am guessing he gets to around 850 yards or so.

[Dorkington]

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/10/30/signature-stats-drop-rate/

[CardinalScotts]

last 5 games needs to average about 110yds..might do it

Edited November 26, 2013 by CardinalScotts

[wnysteel]

he's been injured this year too much. i don't see it happening

[BADOLBILZ]

Thanks for the link...Tim Graham is wrong by the way:

 

https://www.profootb...rop-percentage/

 

PFF doesn't actually show every players' season totals for drops in the article he's referencing, but it's plainly obvious that--just from reading the chart--Stevie isn't tied for the league lead in drops (given that at least one player--Welker--had more)...makes me wonder what else Tim Graham might have wrong. That's not to say that Johnson didn't drop too many balls in 2010; he did. My point to you is that his drop issue is neither (a) a chronic one that's played out from season-to-season, or (b) measurably greater than some of the best WRs in the game.

 

And again, I'd like to hear your take on the multiple other points I've made, as you seem to be ignoring them in order to focus on number of drops.

 

Hey, I gave you the links. If CBS and Tim Graham were wrong or they misquoted PFF or maybe Stevie never dropped the game-winning pass at all and it was a hoax. Frankly, they are more credible than you. But that is just one game in the story of Stevie.

 

As for Calvin Johnson.......let me ask you one simple question..........is it fair to compare Calvin Johnson to Stevie Johnson? Calvin Johnson makes catches maybe no other receiver in NFL history gets his hands on. He is the king of the tough, contested catch. If he drops a few, he WILL make up for it. He has had many big-time clutch grabs late in games. Many. He and Stevie are not comparable. Megatron makes contested catches look easy.....Stevie doesn't make contested grabs at all.

 

Stevie doesn't have a major problem dropping the football most of the time......I never said he did so you are defending a position I wasn't opposing.......he just has a history of dropping the ball when under pressure and/or not making tough catches late in games. That Pittsburgh game was on the heels of him drawing a great deal of attention to himself earlier in the season after some big games. It was a game against a very high profile opponent and he came up very, very small. Maybe he had bad hands that season as 13 drops would indicate and they have improved but he was terrible that day after drawing attention to himself and he has continued to struggle with key, costly drops late in games.

 

That drop in Cinci, the drop against the Jets at the 22 yard line with an easy 20 to gain, the drop against NE this year......these were all OTHER potential game-winning/victory sealing plays that he simply did not come down with. Say what you will......but catching one uncontested lob on a blown coverage against Carolina does not erase the inability to make plays in so many other important instances. Until proven otherwise.....he is NOT clutch. I am not sure why anyone would even argue that point. I mean, he catches a pass with the team down 3 scores and you want to credit that as a key grab that turned around the team? He had a pretty good game in a blowout against Seattle last year......was that clutch? Seriously, you have no argument.

Edited November 26, 2013 by BADOLBEELZ

[dave mcbride]

Hey, I gave you the links. If CBS and Tim Graham were wrong or they misquoted PFF or maybe Stevie never dropped the game-winning pass at all and it was a hoax. Frankly, they are more credible than you. But that is just one game in the story of Stevie.

 

As for Calvin Johnson.......let me ask you one simple question..........is it fair to compare Calvin Johnson to Stevie Johnson? Calvin Johnson makes catches maybe no other receiver in NFL history gets his hands on. He is the king of the tough, contested catch. If he drops a few, he WILL make up for it. He has had many big-time clutch grabs late in games. Many. He and Stevie are not comparable. Megatron makes contested catches look easy.....Stevie doesn't make contested grabs at all.

 

Stevie doesn't have a major problem dropping the football most of the time......I never said he did so you are defending a position I wasn't opposing.......he just has a history of dropping the ball when under pressure and/or not making tough catches late in games. That Pittsburgh game was on the heels of him drawing a great deal of attention to himself earlier in the season after some big games. It was a game against a very high profile opponent and he came up very, very small. Maybe he had bad hands that season as 13 drops would indicate and they have improved but he was terrible that day after drawing attention to himself and he has continued to struggle with key, costly drops late in games.

 

That drop in Cinci, the drop against the Jets at the 22 yard line with an easy 20 to gain, the drop against NE this year......these were all OTHER potential game-winning/victory sealing plays that he simply did not come down with. Say what you will......but catching one uncontested lob on a blown coverage against Carolina does not erase the inability to make plays in so many other important instances. Until proven otherwise.....he is NOT clutch. I am not sure why anyone would even argue that point. I mean, he catches a pass with the team down 3 scores and you want to credit that as a key grab that turned around the team? He had a pretty good game in a blowout against Seattle last year......was that clutch? Seriously, you have no argument.

 

The details of that game (scroll down): http://www.pro-footb...01011280buf.htm

 

There were 8 passes thrown to Johnson in that game that ended up incomplete. Three were "defended," although I don't quite know what that means vis a vis drops. I do know he dropped two - the one in OT and the one that ended up being picked off by Polamalu late in the game. That catch was a bad throw by Fitzpatrick, but I guess it was in the realm of "catchable." As for the other six, I have no recollection, and no one else here does either. Just because Bill Cowher said he dropped five doesn't make it so; he may have been exaggerating for effect. But he may have dropped six. Factoring in Fitzpatrick's penchant for inaccuracy, I'm guessing it was about 50/50 drops and bad throws.

Edited November 26, 2013 by dave mcbride

[dave mcbride]

Any thread on Stevie Johnson that reaches nine pages and doesn't include this isn't worth its salt. So here it is:

.

[thewildrabbit]

Jeez, so much disdain for a guy who was always open against coverage designed to stop him, as he was the only WR worth a damn under Gailey with his 4-5 WR sets.

 

The Bills have a player that loves playing in Buffalo, and loves playing for the Buffalo Bills , and yet some fans want him gone.

 

Man, i can only hope the guy doesn't read this thread and start thinking like Byrd and many other Buffalo Bill players who just want out. Jason Peters, Levitre, Poz, Whitner.

[Beerball]

Stevie and Marrone had a sit down. Hopefully we see signs of chemistry building with all the 'specialists.'

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I posted this:

 

I love reading your stuff too, Bill.

 

My only point was that I believe Stevie, despite all his flaws, is a hard worker and I seriously doubt that his injury history is due to laziness.

 

The discussion about his character, his hands, etc. have nothing to do with me.

 

I think that he tries hard and that he cares.

 

And you replied with this:

 

When it comes to people's favorite players/coaches etc.. people see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear.

 

Stevie was the one who said he didn't train hard.

 

He HAS been continually hobbled by soft tissue injuries for the past 3 years.

 

He has made a number of dumb decisions that have very, very unnecessarily hurt his team on the field.

 

Stevie dropped those 5 balls, including the game-winner against Pitt. He has had a number of critical drops late in games and very little success in the clutch.

 

Like him or not.....these are the facts. I personally like what he brings on the whole which is why I took my stance that you don't move the guy in the offseason for draft picks but it must be acknowledged that he comes with a warning label.

 

May implode emotionally in a big game. May drop big passes. May be hurt a lot and not be able to practice. If you can live with that out of your #1 receiver then he is a fit. If not, then he isn't.

 

I say for $7M per year, I can live with his problems in exchange for him getting open and making plays in the first 3 quarters of the game. If you need someone to make a tough catch in the clutch, find a clutch player and throw him the ball at the end of the game. You need more than 1 good option anyway.

 

There simply isn't enough talent to go around in the NFL where you can just cut bait because a player has some flaws. Good coaching works around it.

 

You don't understand.

 

I believe Stevie is a hard worker.

 

You don't.

 

I'm not sure why you're including all the other stuff in your reply.

 

I don't believe you know how I feel about Stevie although you write as if you think you do.

Edited November 27, 2013 by San Jose Bills Fan

[BillsBytheBay]

and lets not kid ourselves about Stevie...He is OCHO CINCO 2.0. The king of hype sold by himself...Making rap videos, twitter comments, dressing like Chan, Why so serious, stupid penalties and so on. Including the Big Drops in pressure situations, lets not forget what his biggest problem on the field is: HE HAS NO IDEA WHERE THE FIRST DOWN MARKER IS! How many times has he ran a route 1 yard short of the first down markers....MANY EFFING TIMES!

wow. Really, chad 2.0? Just wow. How do you even respond to that?

 

NO.

 

SJ13 is a leader on the BILLS. Chad never was a leader.

 

I live in a town with a BAD team. In Jacksonville we can at least tell who is good, and who isn't.

[thebandit27]

Hey, I gave you the links. If CBS and Tim Graham were wrong or they misquoted PFF or maybe Stevie never dropped the game-winning pass at all and it was a hoax. Frankly, they are more credible than you. But that is just one game in the story of Stevie.

 

I also gave YOU a link, and yes, they were wrong. I have no need/desire to prove my credibility to you; just know that Tim Graham and I once shared the press box (I never got to share it with JW, however...our runs failed to overlap by 1 year).

 

And PFF will tell you that their stats are subjective. Nevertheless, I did thank you for providing the link.

 

As for Calvin Johnson.......let me ask you one simple question..........is it fair to compare Calvin Johnson to Stevie Johnson? Calvin Johnson makes catches maybe no other receiver in NFL history gets his hands on. He is the king of the tough, contested catch. If he drops a few, he WILL make up for it. He has had many big-time clutch grabs late in games. Many. He and Stevie are not comparable. Megatron makes contested catches look easy.....Stevie doesn't make contested grabs at all.

 

There's no comparison between Calvin and any other WR, but you're missing the point.

 

The point is this: Calvin, for the second time in his career, dropped a game-winning catch in the final seconds of the game. Does this make him not clutch? Of course not, because to judge a guy's ability on one or two plays out of a multi-year career is absurd.

 

That's the point.

 

As for Stevie not making contested grabs...well...you're wrong:

 

http://www.buffalobi...0e-5c3396dab5eb

 

http://www.nfl.com/v...n-37-yard-catch

 

http://www.nfl.com/v...nson-27-yard-TD

 

http://www.nfl.com/v...ohnson-TD-catch

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81b3485e/Johnson-5-yard-TD

 

Lastly on this point: I think you're over-stating the number of game-winning catches Megatron has...the team's record is 35-72 since he was drafted. I know he's had a few 4th-quarter TDs that were game-changers though.

 

Stevie doesn't have a major problem dropping the football most of the time......I never said he did so you are defending a position I wasn't opposing.......he just has a history of dropping the ball when under pressure and/or not making tough catches late in games. That Pittsburgh game was on the heels of him drawing a great deal of attention to himself earlier in the season after some big games. It was a game against a very high profile opponent and he came up very, very small. Maybe he had bad hands that season as 13 drops would indicate and they have improved but he was terrible that day after drawing attention to himself and he has continued to struggle with key, costly drops late in games.

 

Actually, I asked you if your position was based solely on the idea that he "isn't clutch", and you keep going back to a game 3+ years ago to prove your point. Let it go...he's had many very good games (and yes, a few lousy ones) since then...I would submit that you may choose to stop judging him based on a game 3 years ago.

 

That drop in Cinci, the drop against the Jets at the 22 yard line with an easy 20 to gain, the drop against NE this year......these were all OTHER potential game-winning/victory sealing plays that he simply did not come down with. Say what you will......but catching one uncontested lob on a blown coverage against Carolina does not erase the inability to make plays in so many other important instances. Until proven otherwise.....he is NOT clutch. I am not sure why anyone would even argue that point. I mean, he catches a pass with the team down 3 scores and you want to credit that as a key grab that turned around the team? He had a pretty good game in a blowout against Seattle last year......was that clutch? Seriously, you have no argument.

 

Actually, if you look at the videos I showed, you'll see he's made a number of clutch catches. Just one example is the game-tying TD he caught against KC in 2010 on 4th and goal that sent the game to overtime:

 

http://www.nfl.com/v...hnson-4-yard-TD

 

Exactly what kind of leeway does that buy him?

 

Just because you don't remember some of his clutch plays doesn't mean that they don't exist. What defines "clutch"? Is he only clutch if he catches a game-winner? Sparking a comeback win doesn't count for you? I guess those points had nothing to do with the team winning then.

 

Look, I get that there are things about the guy that aren't perfect...my point is that your "he isn't clutch" argument is largely dated and is mostly based on confirmation bias. Anyone can cherry-pick a few plays and make their case. Look at the overall picture and be honest with yourself: is the guy a good WR? If the game is on the line, 4th and goal at the 10, 5 seconds left, who do you want EJ looking for in that situation?

Edited November 27, 2013 by thebandit27

[Orton's Arm]

Hey, I gave you the links. If CBS and Tim Graham were wrong or they misquoted PFF or maybe Stevie never dropped the game-winning pass at all and it was a hoax. Frankly, they are more credible than you. But that is just one game in the story of Stevie.

 

As for Calvin Johnson.......let me ask you one simple question..........is it fair to compare Calvin Johnson to Stevie Johnson? Calvin Johnson makes catches maybe no other receiver in NFL history gets his hands on. He is the king of the tough, contested catch. If he drops a few, he WILL make up for it. He has had many big-time clutch grabs late in games. Many. He and Stevie are not comparable. Megatron makes contested catches look easy.....Stevie doesn't make contested grabs at all.

 

Stevie doesn't have a major problem dropping the football most of the time......I never said he did so you are defending a position I wasn't opposing.......he just has a history of dropping the ball when under pressure and/or not making tough catches late in games. That Pittsburgh game was on the heels of him drawing a great deal of attention to himself earlier in the season after some big games. It was a game against a very high profile opponent and he came up very, very small. Maybe he had bad hands that season as 13 drops would indicate and they have improved but he was terrible that day after drawing attention to himself and he has continued to struggle with key, costly drops late in games.

 

That drop in Cinci, the drop against the Jets at the 22 yard line with an easy 20 to gain, the drop against NE this year......these were all OTHER potential game-winning/victory sealing plays that he simply did not come down with. Say what you will......but catching one uncontested lob on a blown coverage against Carolina does not erase the inability to make plays in so many other important instances. Until proven otherwise.....he is NOT clutch. I am not sure why anyone would even argue that point. I mean, he catches a pass with the team down 3 scores and you want to credit that as a key grab that turned around the team? He had a pretty good game in a blowout against Seattle last year......was that clutch? Seriously, you have no argument.

 

> That Pittsburgh game was . . .

 

That Pittsburgh game was three years ago. Around the time that Tom Brady threw four interceptions in a game against the Bills. Do you feel that Brady's four interception performance encapsulated everything that was wrong with him as a QB? That it was proof positive that he wasn't (and never was) the answer at QB?

 

Stevie isn't as good at WR as Brady is as quarterback. Does that difference mean that we should look at the bigger picture for Brady only, while honing in with laser-like focus on the very worst game of Stevie's career?

 

If the bigger picture for Stevie doesn't include any clunkers more recent than the Pittsburgh game, and does include three consecutive 1000 yard seasons, then what is the problem?

[mart]

Steviw "don!t call me stevie" crying again

 

that came out wrong. It should be Stevie "don!t call me Steve"

[BADOLBILZ]

I posted this:

 

 

 

And you replied with this:

 

 

 

You don't understand.

 

I believe Stevie is a hard worker.

 

You don't.

 

I'm not sure why you're including all the other stuff in your reply.

 

I don't believe you know how I feel about Stevie although you write as if you think you do.

 

I repeated myself because I correctly assumed that you hadn't really followed the discussion.

 

Stevie Johnson said he didn't train hard in the offseasons.

 

He said it first. I took his word for it.

 

Touched on much earlier in the discussion.

 

With the obvious exception of Russ Brandon.......I generally take what people in the Bills organization actually say as exhibit A in an argument.

[BADOLBILZ]

I also gave YOU a link, and yes, they were wrong. I have no need/desire to prove my credibility to you; just know that Tim Graham and I once shared the press box (I never got to share it with JW, however...our runs failed to overlap by 1 year).

 

And PFF will tell you that their stats are subjective. Nevertheless, I did thank you for providing the link.

 

 

 

There's no comparison between Calvin and any other WR, but you're missing the point.

 

The point is this: Calvin, for the second time in his career, dropped a game-winning catch in the final seconds of the game. Does this make him not clutch? Of course not, because to judge a guy's ability on one or two plays out of a multi-year career is absurd.

 

That's the point.

 

As for Stevie not making contested grabs...well...you're wrong:

 

http://www.buffalobi...0e-5c3396dab5eb

 

http://www.nfl.com/v...n-37-yard-catch

 

http://www.nfl.com/v...nson-27-yard-TD

 

http://www.nfl.com/v...ohnson-TD-catch

 

http://www.nfl.com/v...hnson-5-yard-TD

 

Lastly on this point: I think you're over-stating the number of game-winning catches Megatron has...the team's record is 35-72 since he was drafted. I know he's had a few 4th-quarter TDs that were game-changers though.

 

 

 

Actually, I asked you if your position was based solely on the idea that he "isn't clutch", and you keep going back to a game 3+ years ago to prove your point. Let it go...he's had many very good games (and yes, a few lousy ones) since then...I would submit that you may choose to stop judging him based on a game 3 years ago.

 

 

 

Actually, if you look at the videos I showed, you'll see he's made a number of clutch catches. Just one example is the game-tying TD he caught against KC in 2010 on 4th and goal that sent the game to overtime:

 

http://www.nfl.com/v...hnson-4-yard-TD

 

Exactly what kind of leeway does that buy him?

 

Just because you don't remember some of his clutch plays doesn't mean that they don't exist. What defines "clutch"? Is he only clutch if he catches a game-winner? Sparking a comeback win doesn't count for you? I guess those points had nothing to do with the team winning then.

 

Look, I get that there are things about the guy that aren't perfect...my point is that your "he isn't clutch" argument is largely dated and is mostly based on confirmation bias. Anyone can cherry-pick a few plays and make their case. Look at the overall picture and be honest with yourself: is the guy a good WR? If the game is on the line, 4th and goal at the 10, 5 seconds left, who do you want EJ looking for in that situation?

 

First of all.......for all of your hard work trying to find evidence to refute my claims about Stevie's weaknesses.......you clearly missed the point that I started this part of the discussion with.

 

That Stevie is a good player and the Bills can't afford to lose good players.

 

So how exactly am I not being honest with myself?

 

As for wanting the ball thrown to him in the clutch.....the answer is no, I don't want the ball going to Stevie in the clutch. I have explained why and it doesn't have anything to do with him not being a good player....I think he simply plays worse when the pressure is on. If you drop the ball 6% of the time during the season but you get 6 or 7 game winning/sealing opportunities over a 3 year period to realistically catch and finish a ball game and you are only at 50% or less.........does that tell you nothing about the player? I mean are you really implying that Stevie has been the same guy in the clutch? Because if you are not at least the same player in the clutch that you normally are then you by definition are NOT clutch.

 

I didn't need PFF to tell me that Stevie isn't one of the worst pass droppers in the league.......but I also have two eyes and have seen him fail repeatedly in the clutch. Some guys step up when the heat is on.....others do not. I think it is a mental hurdle for Stevie the same way it is for many other good players across all sports. I have seen too many guys like A-Rod who stink in the clutch......and even if they have one good performance in the clutch.......they often revert right back.

 

As for your pressbox history.....no offense......but it really doesn't matter to me. I mentioned Tim Graham and Bill Cowher because they were actually working professionally on the subject matter we were discussing. I don't recall Tim being called out for having his numbers wrong in that story but if so......like I said.....it is one game in the story of Stevie Johnson.