1B4IDie Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 You can't touch a receiver after 5 yards. Illegal contact downfield has nothing to do with catchability of the ball. There were three Penalties by Koochie and you can take your pick. 1.) Illegal Contact downfield - doesn't matter if ball is catchable 2.)Defensive Holding - Doesn't matter if ball is catchable. 3.) Pass Interference - You can argue ball was catchable if Gronk wasn't bear hugged in the back of the end zone. All that being said, !@#$ the Patriots and Tom Brady. This is just karma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 Watching the play, a couple times, the DB makes a break on the ball the moment he realizes the ball is underthrown, by about 3-4 yards. You see him cut infront of Gronk at that point. Gronk just carry's-on running his route. IMO, at the point, the ball is uncatchable for Gronkowski. It is at the point where LK intiates contact. If Gronkowski would have attempted to stop to come back to the ball and Kuechly made contact with him, it would have been pass interference. It can't be defensive holding or illegal contact, because the ball is in the air. I believe that's the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 You can't touch a receiver after 5 yards. Illegal contact downfield has nothing to do with catchability of the ball. There were three Penalties by Koochie and you can take your pick. 1.) Illegal Contact downfield - doesn't matter if ball is catchable 2.)Defensive Holding - Doesn't matter if ball is catchable. 3.) Pass Interference - You can argue ball was catchable if Gronk wasn't bear hugged in the back of the end zone. All that being said, !@#$ the Patriots and Tom Brady. This is just karma. Illegal contact and defensive holding are called before the ball is in the air. If the ball is in the air, the call must be interference. If it's not catchable, it's not interference. It was a penalty regardless. Watching the play, a couple times, the DB makes a break on the ball the moment he realizes the ball is underthrown, by about 3-4 yards. You see him cut infront of Gronk at that point. Gronk just carry's-on running his route. IMO, at the point, the ball is uncatchable for Gronkowski. It is at the point where LK intiates contact. If Gronkowski would have attempted to stop to come back to the ball and Kuechly made contact with him, it would have been pass interference. It can't be defensive holding or illegal contact, because the ball is in the air. I believe that's the rule. We don't know if the ball was in the air or not. The hold occurred pretty early - long before the ball gets there. Bear in mind that the ball moves quickly - at around 50-55 MPH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 (edited) We don't know if the ball was in the air or not. The hold occurred pretty early - long before the ball gets there. Bear in mind that the ball moves quickly - at around 50-55 MPH. If it wasn't in the air how did the DB make a break on the ball seeing where it was going? Magic? Edited November 19, 2013 by 4merper4mer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 If it wasn't in the air how did the DB make a break on the ball seeing where it was going? Magic? ? -- Kuechly didn't look at the ball once. I'm not referring to the person who intercepted it, but to Kuechly, who had his back turned the whole play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 You would think Luke Keuchly would have learned his lesson after he gave us the Carolina game with pass interference on Stevie Johnson. If you remember, EJ missed on that last throw to Stevie at the goal line on 4th down but Keuchly was flagged for interference on what looked to be an underthrown, uncatchable ball This is an officiating nightmare that seems like it would happen to us, not the Patsies. No different from the Stevie play in my opinion. The interception is meaningless here, they claim it was uncatchable. So you can maul a receiver legally if the ball is in the air and they determine it isn't catchable. Go watch the Bills Carolina game it was the same throw but we got the win and NE got the L. Maybe the tide is turning. Beautiful baby. Couldn't happen to a better team. The two plays couldn't be more different. VS Bills, LK interferes with SJ from getting to a spot toward which he was already breaking toward. The fact he was unable to get there made that an easy and correct PI call against Keuchley. In fact the ball appeared to be more of an overthrow as SJ couldn't get to it. In this case RG is clearly running toward the back line of the endzone probably expecting a higher throw from TB as he makes no attempt to change his momentum toward the front of the endzone. Keuchly was faceguarding him, so his attempt to come back to the ball would have been obvious if he had made it. That combined with the fact that the DB had seen the underthrow and already broken toward the pass and away from Gronkowski means the flag should never have been thrown. A better throw from TB, and it;s probably a PI. The way the play went, you maybe could argue for holding, not PI. On the final play you probably will not get that call unless a player is dragged down or their jersey is practically ripped off. The only thing that made this an officiating "nightmare" was that the guy who couldn't see the ball threw a flag. Otherwise it's a pretty routine final pass play with nothing being called short of a blatant penalty exactly where the ball ended up. Not to mention that EJM's throw to SJ was at least two plays before the final play of the game and the pass was around the 10 yd line or so. EJM had ascramble that put the ball close to the goal. completely different scenario as the penalty wasn't on the final play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 ? -- Kuechly didn't look at the ball once. I'm not referring to the person who intercepted it, but to Kuechly, who had his back turned the whole play. The DB breaks for the ball before the backer grabs Gronkowski or at about the same time. I am assuming that without a time machine the DB would have to notice where the ball was traveling to break for it which means the ball was already in the air. Thus we know by viewing the DB that the ball was in the air before the hold. This uses the transitive property which is complicated I realize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 The DB breaks for the ball before the backer grabs Gronkowski or at about the same time. I am assuming that without a time machine the DB would have to notice where the ball was traveling to break for it which means the ball was already in the air. Thus we know by viewing the DB that the ball was in the air before the hold. This uses the transitive property which is complicated I realize. I understand what a transitive verb is, and it's not a complicated concept. Regardless, upon viewing this replay, you're right. It's either an interference call or nothing. The ball was in the air when it the contact began. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000284486/article/referee-we-made-right-noncall-in-panthers-win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubes Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 I have a sinking suspicion that the refs are piling up the bad calls on NE* for one big orgasmic payback of makeup calls in Week 17 with the Bills post-season on the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 You would think Luke Keuchly would have learned his lesson after he gave us the Carolina game with pass interference on Stevie Johnson. If you remember, EJ missed on that last throw to Stevie at the goal line on 4th down but Keuchly was flagged for interference on what looked to be an underthrown, uncatchable ball. Instead of game over, we get a first and goal and win the game. Last night he did the exact same thing on the final play of the game to Gronkowski. If you didn't see it, it was blatant pass interference in the endzone with no time left on the clock and the ref threw the flag as he should have. I have no idea what Keuchly was thinking, I can only presume he figured they wouldn't call the penalty on the last play of the game. Everybody in the world including the refs knew Brady was going to Gronk, and Luke didn't care that he was being watched, he mauled him anyway. Worse than the Stevie call. But the refs conferred and they picked up the flag. Panthers win! The refs official statement: " it was determined at that point in time that when the primary contact occurred on the tight end that the ball, in essence, was coming in underthrown and in essence it was immediate at that point intercepted at the front end of the end zone. So there was a determination that, in essence, uncatchability, that the ball was intercepted at or about the same time the primary contact against the receiver occurred. " This is an officiating nightmare that seems like it would happen to us, not the Patsies. No different from the Stevie play in my opinion. The interception is meaningless here, they claim it was uncatchable. So you can maul a receiver legally if the ball is in the air and they determine it isn't catchable. Go watch the Bills Carolina game it was the same throw but we got the win and NE got the L. Maybe the tide is turning. Beautiful baby. Couldn't happen to a better team. Isn't that therefore illegal contact or holding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 Isn't that therefore illegal contact or holding? If the ball is in the air it can't be illegal contact or holding. It's PI, when the ball is in the air, or nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 for the sake of discussion, heres the play from the best angle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 Thanks, No Saint. It's hard to tell whether it's "catchable" or not. I'd say "probably", but perhaps that's charitable. However, the bottom line is this: the Pats put themselves in this situation by kicking a FG on 4th and 1 on their previous possession and by failing to stop the Panthers on their final drive. When a team loses on a final play like this one and blows a fourth quarter lead, they have one to blame but themselves. Borderline calls happen multiple times in a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 Thanks, No Saint. It's hard to tell whether it's "catchable" or not. I'd say "probably", but perhaps that's charitable. However, the bottom line is this: the Pats put themselves in this situation by kicking a FG on 4th and 1 on their previous possession and by failing to stop the Panthers on their final drive. When a team loses on a final play like this one and blows a fourth quarter lead, they have one to blame but themselves. Borderline calls happen multiple times in a game. generally i lean towards seeing it taking gronk moving parting seas to be able to get back to that ball even if LK doesnt grab him. i dont have nfl training in catchability (really dont know the training they get in that direction and they certainly get some), and think i would gladly defer to the refs judgement on this one after seeing it from this angle. in a bang-bang full speed play, without replay, i dont think there is any reason for people to beat them up on this call. if pressed, id say uncatchable, but simply because i dont know how he gets back there AND through the safety - he just seems to plant to turn one step too late to have even an outside chance i think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 (edited) Pass interference all the way. The linebacker initiated contact and had his back to the play and wasn't playing the ball at all. Refs ALWAYS call that on DB's. The linebacker doesn't even know the ball is even thrown to that direction. It's impossible unless he has eyes on the back of his head. Whats more egregious is there is about 2 seconds of contact even before the DB breaks for the ball to intercept and then at that point the LB is literally a brick wall hugging him impeding his movement. Edited November 19, 2013 by BuffaloBillsForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxy312 Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 Call that homefield advantage. Patriots have been getting that advantage in Foxboro/Gilette for years. No matter what you say, there was a penalty there. Contact happened before the ball was in the air and continued through the interception. IMO, they called the penalty live. I don't know how you then go back and say there's no penalty. Could Gronk have broken back and gone up for the ball? Wouldn't be the first time and he's certainly athletic enough to outjump that DB. What should have happened at least as I see it is that there either shouldn't have been a flag thrown at all to begin with. That creates the problem right up front because the referee clearly saw and called interference. As I see it, they should have called illegal contact and awarded the Pats 5 yards and one more play. But they didn't. I think the refs blew this play, but at the end of the day it couldn't happen to a better team or Tommy Tuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SactoBillFan Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 Pass interference all the way. The linebacker initiated contact and had his back to the play and wasn't playing the ball at all. Refs ALWAYS call that on DB's. The linebacker doesn't even know the ball is even thrown to that direction. It's impossible unless he has eyes on the back of his head. Whats more egregious is there is about 2 seconds of contact even before the DB breaks for the ball to intercept and then at that point the LB is literally a brick wall hugging him impeding his movement. Not this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 (edited) Not this time. But they actually did and wrongfully overturned the call on the field. And the initial flag was for pass interference because if the flag was for illegal contact or holding, the notion of the ball being "catchable" doesn't matter. Edited November 19, 2013 by BuffaloBillsForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 (edited) IMO, they called the penalty live. I don't know how you then go back and say there's no penalty. Could Gronk have broken back and gone up for the ball? Wouldn't be the first time and he's certainly athletic enough to outjump that DB. What should have happened at least as I see it is that there either shouldn't have been a flag thrown at all to begin with. That creates the problem right up front because the referee clearly saw and called interference. As I see it, they should have called illegal contact and awarded the Pats 5 yards and one more play. But they didn't. I think the refs blew this play, but at the end of the day it couldn't happen to a better team or Tommy Tuck. the ref IMMEDIATELY turns to ask for the side judges help. its not like the side guy ran in and over ruled him unilaterally. look at gronks first plant to turn - youd have to think hed lauch all 250 lbs of him in the complete opposite direction several yards instantaneously with a single leg planting and pushing off. hes athletic but hes subject to the rules of physics and momentum and theres no way he was stopping his progress towards the back line, accelerating towards the front line AND overtaking the safety all in the time from his first planted foot to change direction to his next step which is when the safety gets the ball. before that first plant LK hasnt wrapped him up either.... and he takes 3 more steps backwards after it without getting that firm a push to show how much his momentum was taking him away from the ball Edited November 19, 2013 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgia Bill Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Hopefully we get the breaks in week 17 against th Patriots. The Bills will be 8-7 and looking at the playoffs. That sort of thing should only be said 5 weeks from now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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