Clippers of Nfl Posted November 19, 2013 Posted November 19, 2013 Calls go both ways in today's game. No calls bad calls and missed calls. All those wrongs. Saying this offsets the Saints game may be fair. But its not right. Two wrongs don't make a right. Gronk is athletic enough and had slowed down enough he could have had a chance at that ball. For that reason it should have been called. Panthers fans were irate we got the Steve johnson keuxhlholding call That's where you're wrong J. Gronk still had to get in front of the guy who did intercept it. Based on positioning, that would almost be impossible to do. The guy who intercepted it had the best shot. If it was Luke and Gronk only, then maybe I would agree with you. But he was double teamed and the player who did intercept the ball was in much better position. He was free and was not being double teamed. That's a fact. It was a good no call. Not to mention that to me his momentum was leading him deep in the endozone anyway. Gronk's instict (and probably the play itself) is a high ball towards the back of the endzone. At the end of the day he didnt expect the ball to be severly underthrown by Brady. Actually by play design Amendola was deep in the endzone too. He tried to come back to it too. But it was too late. Same thing that would have happened with Gronk. With the speed of the ball and two men blocking his path, AND THE BAD THROW, Gronk had no chance. Book it! Again, this is all on Brady. how would he have gotten through both LK and the safety, even without LKs contact? if he were in the open field with no defenders maybe he gets to the ball at a lower point in its trajectory but i dont see how the physics of him getting past the guy that made the interception to make a catch himself could happen? He would have to be the little fast dude son on the movie "The incredibles" I'm with you on this one.
Dan Posted November 19, 2013 Posted November 19, 2013 Who remembers the last play of the Pats*/N.O. game? Brady makes a TD pass as time expires while Junior Galette gets the Captain Lou Albano choke hold. So here's your karma, bitches. Screw the stinking Pats*! They have nothing to say about what is/isn't pass interference after this gift they got in Week 10 last year! Anyone remember that BS call? Not only was Brandon Lloyd about 5 yards from the ball, Brady's pass was about 5 yards out of bounds, and STILL the ref threw a flag, PTR Calls go both ways in today's game. No calls bad calls and missed calls. All those wrongs. Saying this offsets the Saints game may be fair. But its not right. Two wrongs don't make a right. Gronk is athletic enough and had slowed down enough he could have had a chance at that ball. For that reason it should have been called. Panthers fans were irate we got the Steve johnson keuxhlholding call This about all sums it up for me. IMO, the defender clearly made contact and impeded the receiver's abilty to catch the ball. That's pass interfence. However, the league has literally given the Patriots wins with a multitude of other BS calls and non calls, so any Pat fan needs to just take his lumps and sit down. You can't get all the calls, all the time. Stop the whining. For me, it points to the larger issue of what the NFL has become. Nearly unwatchable. The refs take over almost ever game, every week and make wildly inconsistent calls. Its beyond absurd. 2 plays earlier the refs called PI on the Panthers and it was way less contact than the final play. Then they literally give them 2 more seconds to ensure they can hit the hitch to make the final play possible. In the Denver/KC game the defender gets a personal foul because he's TALKING to the WR after a pass breakup. Last night, Talib crabs Smith's face mask, pulling him, while talking... no flag. Then there's the other Pat lineman that HEADBUTS a Panther player while scuffing after a play... no flag. So, did the refs make a bad call on that last play? Yeah. But, it's really no different than they call every other game, every week... piss poor and with zero consistency. I'm just glad to see the Pats finally getting the same great officiating we've all been getting for quite a while.
Clippers of Nfl Posted November 19, 2013 Posted November 19, 2013 Can we at least all agree that it's great fun to see the Pats get !@#$ed over by a controversial call? Doubly so when it's 15 years - almost to the day - since the "Just give it to 'em" ruling? I'll agree with you on that Dc!
Boatdrinks Posted November 19, 2013 Posted November 19, 2013 The only reason that final play is even being discussed was that the BJ threw the flag when he shouldn't have. The ball was poorly thrown and wasn't in the vicinity of Gronkowski who was clearly heading to the back of the EZ and made no attempt to "come back to the ball until it was essentially in the DB hands. If he had made an attempt to adjust to it and ran through Keachley to get there a flag may have been justified. Gronkowski saw the ball was severely underthrown when it was too late for him to actually make a play on it. Throw in the fact that PI calls are rarely made in the NFL on the final play (hail mary or otherwise) unless a receiver is literally brought to the ground. Like it or not, that's just how it is. At best it would have been a holding call, not PI as the pass was not really near Gronkowski and he made no move toward the front of the end zone. That would have been a 5 yd penalty and 1st down, no guarantee of a TD there. All the blather post-game by Young, Dilfer, et al was just ballwashing of "Gronk". He really had no chance at that ball due to the poor throw. He would have had to go through the DB in front of him, who had every right to the underthrown pass. BJ should've kept the flag in his pocket, and the no-call would've been viewed as a routine final play in the NFL. His mistake was throwing the flag then having to pick it up and explain why it was picked up. I noticed neither Young or Dilfer brought up the final play of the Saints game, where the Pats LT mauled the Saints DE with a WWE move that absolutely was holding and should've negated that "win". Or the fact that the NE O lineman (61 I think) Legged whipped a CAR de with no 15 yard penalty on a drive that the PATS got a TD on. Karma, man. The Pats have been the beneficiaries of so many calls and non-calls over the years, it's hard to have sympathy. You could sense from Gerry Austin's explanation of why the flag was picked up that he wanted to say it just shouldn't have been thrown, because NFL Ref culture just says you don't throw a flag on a last play pass attempt.
zow2 Posted November 19, 2013 Posted November 19, 2013 I guess i didn't read the fine print in the rule book. I've seen flags picked up on PI calls when the ball sails 10-15 yards out of bounds and is ruled "uncatchable" (unless it's Bills vs Pats then it's Always catchable for NE, ha ha). But anyway, I don't recall seeing a PI flag picked up after an INT near the offending play...with the ruling being "uncatchable". That my friends sounds like a new one to me and if it victimized the Bills at the end of a game i would be furious.
IDBillzFan Posted November 19, 2013 Posted November 19, 2013 Last night, Talib crabs Smith's face mask, pulling him, while talking... no flag I was very suprised Talib didn't get tossed after the leg grab and then the facemask grab. Smith was in head, but Talib's actions were inexcusable.
Boatdrinks Posted November 19, 2013 Posted November 19, 2013 I guess i didn't read the fine print in the rule book. I've seen flags picked up on PI calls when the ball sails 10-15 yards out of bounds and is ruled "uncatchable" (unless it's Bills vs Pats then it's Always catchable for NE, ha ha). But anyway, I don't recall seeing a PI flag picked up after an INT near the offending play...with the ruling being "uncatchable". That my friends sounds like a new one to me and if it victimized the Bills at the end of a game i would be furious. The flag was not going to be for PI, as the pass was not near Gronkowski. Holding, perhaps but it shouldn't have been thrown to begin with. Short of dragging a receiver down PI's just aren't thrown on final plays of games. The explanations don't make sense because the real "unspoken" explanation is that it wasn't blatant enough for an NFL ref to call on the last play.
Doc Posted November 19, 2013 Posted November 19, 2013 If Kuechly hadn't interfered, the Pats would still have lost. The ball was severely underthrown and at-best Gronk might have had broken-up the INT.
papazoid Posted November 19, 2013 Posted November 19, 2013 cam vs brady ?? how bout steve smith vs aqib talib. "ice,up,son" - steve smith http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000284510/article/panthers-steve-smith-to-pats-aqib-talib-ice-up-son
Prickly Pete Posted November 19, 2013 Posted November 19, 2013 The flag was not going to be for PI, as the pass was not near Gronkowski. Holding, perhaps but it shouldn't have been thrown to begin with. Short of dragging a receiver down PI's just aren't thrown on final plays of games. The explanations don't make sense because the real "unspoken" explanation is that it wasn't blatant enough for an NFL ref to call on the last play. Exactly. It was essentially a Hail Mary pass. I think all this controversy takes away from the fact that Carolina outplayed the Pats, and the Pats were given plenty of critical close calls throughout the game which kept scoring drives alive. But instead, we have to watch Brady and Belichick act like they've been victimized, which is a complete joke.
dave mcbride Posted November 19, 2013 Posted November 19, 2013 (edited) The only reason that final play is even being discussed was that the BJ threw the flag when he shouldn't have. The ball was poorly thrown and wasn't in the vicinity of Gronkowski who was clearly heading to the back of the EZ and made no attempt to "come back to the ball until it was essentially in the DB hands. If he had made an attempt to adjust to it and ran through Keachley to get there a flag may have been justified. Gronkowski saw the ball was severely underthrown when it was too late for him to actually make a play on it. Throw in the fact that PI calls are rarely made in the NFL on the final play (hail mary or otherwise) unless a receiver is literally brought to the ground. Like it or not, that's just how it is. At best it would have been a holding call, not PI as the pass was not really near Gronkowski and he made no move toward the front of the end zone. That would have been a 5 yd penalty and 1st down, no guarantee of a TD there. All the blather post-game by Young, Dilfer, et al was just ballwashing of "Gronk". He really had no chance at that ball due to the poor throw. He would have had to go through the DB in front of him, who had every right to the underthrown pass. BJ should've kept the flag in his pocket, and the no-call would've been viewed as a routine final play in the NFL. His mistake was throwing the flag then having to pick it up and explain why it was picked up. I noticed neither Young or Dilfer brought up the final play of the Saints game, where the Pats LT mauled the Saints DE with a WWE move that absolutely was holding and should've negated that "win". Or the fact that the NE O lineman (61 I think) Legged whipped a CAR de with no 15 yard penalty on a drive that the PATS got a TD on. Karma, man. The Pats have been the beneficiaries of so many calls and non-calls over the years, it's hard to have sympathy. You could sense from Gerry Austin's explanation of why the flag was picked up that he wanted to say it just shouldn't have been thrown, because NFL Ref culture just says you don't throw a flag on a last play pass attempt. I'm glad the Pats lost, but the flag should have been thrown for a very simple reason -- when a hold is that physical and blatant, there is no way to know what the receiver's ultimate route is. You think you know, but you're not really sure. And that's because Kuechly mugged him so badly that it was impossible for Gronkowski to move in any way except in the direction that he was pushed. It's therefore impossible to know if it was truly "uncatchable," and as a consequence, the benefit of the doubt has to go to the injured party. That's a penalty that has to be called. Trust me, if that happened to Scott Chandler on the last play of the game, the outrage here would be universal. As for whether it was catchable even if Gronkowski made his way back, if it's in the immediate vicinity, it's "catchable" regardless of a defender's positioning. The bottom line is that defenders shouldn't be allowed to get away with tackling receivers. Edited November 19, 2013 by dave mcbride
Boatdrinks Posted November 19, 2013 Posted November 19, 2013 It would have been intercepted if Kuechly wasn't there at all. Gronk was running to the back of the end zone and the DB had already undercut him before any contact was made by Kuechly. Clearly Brady didn't put the ball where it needed to be for Gronk to have any chance at it. For all the whining you hear about flags during most games, I'd think people would be happy to see the refs get together and agree that the flag thrown in error. Kudos to the refs for having the balls to pick it up. And of course, huge bonus points for a Pats* loss that ends with Brady crying to the refs. Excellent point. Forget about LK "impeding" his ability to come back to the ball (which RG never attempted), he would've had to go through the CAR db who had the best chance at the ball and had already made a break toward it. Given that the pass was short and low, there is zero chance RG makes a play on that ball. The BJ made a mistake in throwing the flag, probably because he couldn't see the ball. A better pass from Brady, and that flag probably isn't picked up, and he knows it.
boyst Posted November 19, 2013 Author Posted November 19, 2013 Can reply to everyone At the time Keek makes contact Gronk had slowed his route and began to turn his shoulders and head. Naturally his hips would have been next. He was at a point where he had enough room to make the stop and post on the route to come back to the ball - if only to dive at it and maybe get his finger tips on it. Keek engages physical contact right as Gronk turns and Gronk has little to no position to fight. It could have also been called offensive pass interference if Gronk fought back to the ball. When Keek engages Grobk the CB is outside of Gronk and if you don't think he could have boxed out the CB then I don't know what to tell you. He has done it a lot. And maybe the ball is still intercepted or dropped. But Gronk was illegally touched.
Dan Posted November 19, 2013 Posted November 19, 2013 I was very suprised Talib didn't get tossed after the leg grab and then the facemask grab. Smith was in head, but Talib's actions were inexcusable. Same here. Most any other player is tossed committing a 2nd personal foul, especially a grab the face mask pull a player around type foul, after committing his first one. Not only was he not tossed out, he wasn't even penalized.
boyst Posted November 19, 2013 Author Posted November 19, 2013 Excellent point. Forget about LK "impeding" his ability to come back to the ball (which RG never attempted), he would've had to go through the CAR db who had the best chance at the ball and had already made a break toward it. Given that the pass was short and low, there is zero chance RG makes a play on that ball. The BJ made a mistake in throwing the flag, probably because he couldn't see the ball. A better pass from Brady, and that flag probably isn't picked up, and he knows it. of you look at where the cb was and gronk was at the moment Keek made contact and the cb broke gronk would have been able to get in front of enough or knock the db down to have stopped him. I could easily gronk fighting back to position himself to catch the ball and there being contact to draw a flag wither wat
26CornerBlitz Posted November 19, 2013 Posted November 19, 2013 Cam Newton is a bust! A bust? You mean he's in the HOF already? Is that some new thing for current players as part of the CBA?
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 19, 2013 Posted November 19, 2013 A bust? You mean he's in the HOF already? Is that some new thing for current players as part of the CBA? total joke because there were a good amount of people trashing him here. For some reason, some folks want to be the first to label a young player a bust. Newton has been a beast since day 1 and has grown up as a leader.
Boatdrinks Posted November 19, 2013 Posted November 19, 2013 Can reply to everyone At the time Keek makes contact Gronk had slowed his route and began to turn his shoulders and head. Naturally his hips would have been next. He was at a point where he had enough room to make the stop and post on the route to come back to the ball - if only to dive at it and maybe get his finger tips on it. Keek engages physical contact right as Gronk turns and Gronk has little to no position to fight. It could have also been called offensive pass interference if Gronk fought back to the ball. When Keek engages Grobk the CB is outside of Gronk and if you don't think he could have boxed out the CB then I don't know what to tell you. He has done it a lot. And maybe the ball is still intercepted or dropped. But Gronk was illegally touched. It is a stretch to think that RG could've made any play on that pass short of LK and the DB not even being there. LK faceguards him, but there is little contact and RG made no move toward the ball. There were several yds between him and the intercepting DB to cover in a fraction of a second. Even in slow mo, there is obviously too much distance and 2 players to go through to get there. LK should have turned around instead of faceguarding RG, and this play wouldn't even be talked about. Take away LK, and there is still no way RG gets to that ball without going through the DB. They were too far apart and RG's momentum is still going toward the backline of the endzone. Holding at best with the poor throw, and a call you usually won't get on the final play unless the pass is on your fingertips or something. A good no call dramatized by the flag from the guy who couldn't see the ball.
26CornerBlitz Posted November 19, 2013 Posted November 19, 2013 total joke because there were a good amount of people trashing him here. For some reason, some folks want to be the first to label a young player a bust. Newton has been a beast since day 1 and has grown up as a leader. I know you were kidding. Was trying to ride your coattails. I failed.
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