Big C Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 The best part for me was that when EJ threw the ball, Goodwin was behind Cromartie. When he caught the ball, he was two yards past Cromartie. Just amazing speed and clear ability to track the ball. He's so much better than TJ it's not even debatable. Keep Stevie in the slot and Woods and Goodwin outside the rest of the year and only play Graham in four wides. His acceleration is ridiculous. He seems to save a little speed for that last burst to the ball and the separation is so beautiful to watch.
dave mcbride Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 The best part for me was that when EJ threw the ball, Goodwin was behind Cromartie. When he caught the ball, he was two yards past Cromartie. Just amazing speed and clear ability to track the ball. He's so much better than TJ it's not even debatable. Keep Stevie in the slot and Woods and Goodwin outside the rest of the year and only play Graham in four wides. To be fair to Graham, he played really well yesterday.
l< j Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 Not much prettier than the opposing DB being left on the turf like that. That pass was sick. I kept waiting for the wind to stop it, but it didn't. Marrone should have them practice in that more often. Certinally worked for Carpenter, etc. The best thing about Goodwin is you can be safe and err on the side of overthrowing (unless there is a safety coming) because no one will outrun him to the ball. Along those lines, can anyone tell me why EJ's throw on the Graham TD was that short? Was it a designed underthrow, did the wind kill it, or was it a designed underthrow that the wind killed to make it look that much more underthrown? kj
Rubes Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 Not much prettier than the opposing DB being left on the turf like that. Along those lines, can anyone tell me why EJ's throw on the Graham TD was that short? Was it a designed underthrow, did the wind kill it, or was it a designed underthrow that the wind killed to make it look that much more underthrown? kj Heavy blitz. EJ was just getting it out to avoid the hit, and likely didn't get much under it. In addition to the wind, of course.
CBD Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 Along those lines, can anyone tell me why EJ's throw on the Graham TD was that short? Was it a designed underthrow, did the wind kill it, or was it a designed underthrow that the wind killed to make it look that much more underthrown? kj I think a combination of him having to get it off before he was ready and the wind.
Coach Tuesday Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 Not much prettier than the opposing DB being left on the turf like that. Along those lines, can anyone tell me why EJ's throw on the Graham TD was that short? Was it a designed underthrow, did the wind kill it, or was it a designed underthrow that the wind killed to make it look that much more underthrown? kj He got hit (hard) as he was throwing.
Kelly the Dog Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 To be fair to Graham, he played really well yesterday. He did, and was very happy with his two catches, especially the second one. It doesn't diminish the fact that Goodwin is light years ahead of Graham at this point in their careers and he's played far, far less football.
Wooderson Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 Not much prettier than the opposing DB being left on the turf like that. Along those lines, can anyone tell me why EJ's throw on the Graham TD was that short? Was it a designed underthrow, did the wind kill it, or was it a designed underthrow that the wind killed to make it look that much more underthrown? kj Just heaving it up and hoping TJ came down with it. Earlier in the game, Gilmore had great coverage on Holmes and Holmes made the exact same catch on a Geno pass that got caught up in the wind. EJ saw a free rusher off the edge and just tossed it.
dave mcbride Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 He did, and was very happy with his two catches, especially the second one. It doesn't diminish the fact that Goodwin is light years ahead of Graham at this point in their careers and he's played far, far less football. I was more impressed with the first catch. He subtly committed offensive pass interference against Milliner (of the kind that NEVER gets called, and which Santonio Holmes did to Gilmore early in the game for a big catch), and it turned a potential INT into an easy TD. Great play by him. I love Goodwin, but let's not assume that Graham is incapable of improvement. That first TD reception was a big league, veteran play.
Kelly the Dog Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 (edited) I was more impressed with the first catch. He subtly committed offensive pass interference against Milliner (of the kind that NEVER gets called, and which Santonio Holmes did to Gilmore early in the game for a big catch), and it turned a potential INT into an easy TD. Great play by him. I love Goodwin, but let's not assume that Graham is incapable of improvement. That first TD reception was a big league, veteran play. Perhaps. I saw it differently. I saw it being a play a WR should make and that Graham rarely makes. He is the worst NFL WR I have ever seen tracking the ball in the air. I really mean that. I don't ever remember seeing a guy that consistently misreads the ball and misreads/mistimes his acceleration, spot on the field, and jumps. It's embarrassingly bad. On the first play, to me, he did what anyone would have done. He knew the ball was coming, looked, saw it was short and stopped for it before the rookie DB did. Then cradled it (he wanted to drop it), and waltzed into the endzone. Good play but IMO really not that difficult. The second one is what he has repeatedly been unable to do. That's why it impressed me more. He tracked the ball, caught it over his shoulder and then kept both feet in. Three things he usually can't or doesn't do all in one. That, to me, was 10x harder than the first. The one thing he CAN do repeatedly is get open. He's very, very good at it, and that can't be underestimated. He has trouble holding onto the ball though, and catching it. He had fumble problems and suspect hands in college, too. Here's to hoping he improves. He'd be a wicked component as a #4, but that's all he should be right now. Edited November 18, 2013 by Kelly the Dog
Thunderstealer Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 It's good to have two deep threats. Can't constantly put a safety over top to shut him down. He looks like a football player. That's half the battle for track guys.
dave mcbride Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 (edited) Perhaps. I saw it differently. I saw it being a play a WR should make and that Graham rarely makes. He is the worst NFL WR I have ever seen tracking the ball in the air. I really mean that. I don't ever remember seeing a guy that consistently misreads the ball and misreads/mistimes his acceleration, spot on the field, and jumps. It's embarrassingly bad. On the first play, to me, he did what anyone would have done. He knew the ball was coming, looked, saw it was short and stopped for it before the rookie DB did. Then cradled it (he wanted to drop it), and waltzed into the endzone. Good play but IMO really not that difficult. The second one is what he has repeatedly been unable to do. That's why it impressed me more. He tracked the ball, caught it over his shoulder and then kept both feet in. Three things he usually can't or doesn't do all in one. That, to me, was 10x harder than the first. The one thing he CAN do repeatedly is get open. He's very, very good at it, and that can't be underestimated. He has trouble holding onto the ball though, and catching it. He had fumble problems and suspect hands in college, too. Here's to hoping he improves. He'd be a wicked component as a #4, but that's all he should be right now. I watched it four times because I was watching it with a Jets fan who complained about it being interference. I am 100 percent certain that it was in fact offensive pass interference, but it was the right kind of OPI - the kind that never, ever gets called. He pushed Milliner back with a subtle swim move, making himself the only player in the vicinity of where the ball was going to land (and he made Milliner look bad, just like Holmes made Gilmore look bad). Give him some credit. He made a great play. I'm not going to argue about what's harder, but I do know which play is a more veteran, pro play. His problem isn't athleticism; it's making professional plays. Edited November 18, 2013 by dave mcbride
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 Perhaps. I saw it differently. I saw it being a play a WR should make and that Graham rarely makes. He is the worst NFL WR I have ever seen tracking the ball in the air. I really mean that. I don't ever remember seeing a guy that consistently misreads the ball and misreads/mistimes his acceleration, spot on the field, and jumps. It's embarrassingly bad. On the first play, to me, he did what anyone would have done. He knew the ball was coming, looked, saw it was short and stopped for it before the rookie DB did. Then cradled it (he wanted to drop it), and waltzed into the endzone. Good play but IMO really not that difficult. The second one is what he has repeatedly been unable to do. That's why it impressed me more. He tracked the ball, caught it over his shoulder and then kept both feet in. Three things he usually can't or doesn't do all in one. That, to me, was 10x harder than the first. The one thing he CAN do repeatedly is get open. He's very, very good at it, and that can't be underestimated. He has trouble holding onto the ball though, and catching it. He had fumble problems and suspect hands in college, too. Here's to hoping he improves. He'd be a wicked component as a #4, but that's all he should be right now. I agree with everything here. Graham had his best game. But make no mistake about it, Graham remains horrible. I also don't think you can teach a guy ball skills-- some guys have it, and others don't. He is an athlete that lacks any degree of football skills and field awareness. Even on his 40 yard TD, he made that play much closer than he had to, almost stepping out of bounds. If I am the Bills, the way I use Graham would not be on bombs, but on short crosses, screens, reverses, Let him use his speed, and minimize his need to run routes and track the ball in the air.
eball Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 Perhaps. I saw it differently. I saw it being a play a WR should make and that Graham rarely makes. He is the worst NFL WR I have ever seen tracking the ball in the air. I really mean that. I don't ever remember seeing a guy that consistently misreads the ball and misreads/mistimes his acceleration, spot on the field, and jumps. It's embarrassingly bad. On the first play, to me, he did what anyone would have done. He knew the ball was coming, looked, saw it was short and stopped for it before the rookie DB did. Then cradled it (he wanted to drop it), and waltzed into the endzone. Good play but IMO really not that difficult. The second one is what he has repeatedly been unable to do. That's why it impressed me more. He tracked the ball, caught it over his shoulder and then kept both feet in. Three things he usually can't or doesn't do all in one. That, to me, was 10x harder than the first. The one thing he CAN do repeatedly is get open. He's very, very good at it, and that can't be underestimated. He has trouble holding onto the ball though, and catching it. He had fumble problems and suspect hands in college, too. Here's to hoping he improves. He'd be a wicked component as a #4, but that's all he should be right now. I agree with all of this 100%. Graham's ball-tracking and timing are usually extraordinarily bad, which is why the 2nd catch was such a shocker.
NoName Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Teams will have more time to game plan and take away Goodwin out of the game. Having said that, he is probably our best receiver. I think I'd rather see the Bills start Goodwin and Graham the rest of the way. All that speed on the field opens it up. If not Graham maybe Woods. But there is no way Goodwin should not be a full time starter. Even Hogan looked good in his role. The Bills have huge amounts of talent at WR. I see Goodwin and Woods as possibly being a Jackson Macklin like combo.
eball Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Teams will have more time to game plan and take away Goodwin out of the game. Having said that, he is probably our best receiver. I think I'd rather see the Bills start Goodwin and Graham the rest of the way. All that speed on the field opens it up. If not Graham maybe Woods. But there is no way Goodwin should not be a full time starter. Even Hogan looked good in his role. The Bills have huge amounts of talent at WR. I see Goodwin and Woods as possibly being a Jackson Macklin like combo. If teams want to "take Goodwin out of the game" I'm sure the Bills will relish seeing a safety who starts the play 25 yards off the LOS, and then turns and sprints further back at the snap. Like I said up thread, just watch for the middle of the field to open up -- Stevie, Woody, and Chandler are going to have a field day.
l< j Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 Heavy blitz. EJ was just getting it out to avoid the hit, and likely didn't get much under it. In addition to the wind, of course. I think a combination of him having to get it off before he was ready and the wind. He got hit (hard) as he was throwing. Just heaving it up and hoping TJ came down with it. Earlier in the game, Gilmore had great coverage on Holmes and Holmes made the exact same catch on a Geno pass that got caught up in the wind. EJ saw a free rusher off the edge and just tossed it. Thanks, thanks, thanks, and thanks. kj
Max997 Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 I was thrilled when the Bills selected Goodwin who was extremely underutilized at Texas
Kelly the Dog Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 I watched it four times because I was watching it with a Jets fan who complained about it being interference. I am 100 percent certain that it was in fact offensive pass interference, but it was the right kind of OPI - the kind that never, ever gets called. He pushed Milliner back with a subtle swim move, making himself the only player in the vicinity of where the ball was going to land (and he made Milliner look bad, just like Holmes made Gilmore look bad). Give him some credit. He made a great play. I'm not going to argue about what's harder, but I do know which play is a more veteran, pro play. His problem isn't athleticism; it's making professional plays. If he did indeed subtlety push off and then come back, which I believe you when you say it, then it was a better play than I thought, and something else he doesn't do. So I will have to give him more credit than I previously did. Still, until he can prove these two plays were not aberrations, I will continue to believe that he lacks the receiving skills and hands to be a good player in this league. Goodwin already shows almost everything you want, as well as things you cannot teach.
John from Riverside Posted November 18, 2013 Posted November 18, 2013 The only thing that scares me about Goodwin is he is on the injury report to much...... Goodwin has his place on this team.....but I would really like to see the bills investing in quality athletic big receivers that will fight for a ball that can go over the middle.......I really liked Sanu of the bengals when he came out.
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