O line

[thebandit27]

No, a total of 17 isn't that bad. But, currently the Bills have allowed 32 sacks, 8th most in the NFL. Interestingly, the Bills are currently #4 in the NFL in QB hits allowed with 77.

 

Clearly, the Bills O line has performed much, much better at pass blocking, and while at home in Buffalo. They were particularly bad in all areas on the road at New Orleans & Pittsburgh.

 

Last weeks rushing at home was so pathetic it should alarming to some Bills coaches, and really make them think about whats happening with that line. 38 attempts for 68 yards for a 1.8 YPC average, wasn't just bad, it was god awful bad!! Like I stated earlier in this thread, that the Bills shouldn't force the rookie QB to carry the team to wins every week. Putting in an extra OT to block instead of a TE, to running the 4 WR spread offense to force a LBer to cover a WR, and if the defense shifts to nickle or dime coverage it allows the RBs the advantage.

 

Even the Bills coaches themselves admit they need to work on correct the problem with the run game. http://www.buffalobi...45-7a62d388199f

 

 

The Bills need a new LG for certain, and if the Bills only played home games, and only passed then the current line would be fine. Since no team can win consistently by being one dimensional, I can only hope that RG & RT also get addressed by next season.

 

 

http://www.nfl.com/s...false&Submit=Go

 

 

 

BTW, the run game should look much better at home against the #28 ranked run defense of the Falcons.

 

Rushing performances against the Jets this season:

 

TB - 65 yds (2.6 ypc)

NE - 54 (2.3 ypc)

Buf - 120 (4.8)

Ten - 78 (2.5)

Atl - 64 (2.9)

Pit - 73 (2.8)

NE - 90 (4.5)

Cin - 79 (3.2)

NO - 41 (3.2)

Buf - 68 (1.8)

Bal - 67 (2.2)

 

You continue to cherry pick...

 

Nobody has run on the Jets this season...nobody. Both Buffalo and NE had games that looked statistically decent, except that each benefited from one long run that skewed the stats.

 

I'm genuinely curious if you have any response on my comments regarding the performances against Carolina, Baltimore, Cleveland, and Cincinnati, all of whom rank in the top 11 in run defense (and in YPC)?

[BigBuff423]

The other issue in pointing out the poor running attack is that for several games, and the last half against Cleveland, there were back-up and PS QBs...Thad did well against Miami but Tuel struggled against KC and in his relief at Cleveland. Its signficance is this: when an opposing Defense prepares for the games against the BILLS, do we not believe that their single mission was to STOP the RBs and make the aforementioned QBs beat them??? In other words, the perception was that the QBs would be struggling, so take away the BILLS' strength in the running game and make the QBs play...JETS did this but EJ was a solid QB in that game, and with the Steelers he was just coming back. So, it seems to keep it all fair, we should remember that the game plan in four or five of those games was to focus on their running game and put multiple fronts against the run....just a thought?

Edited November 26, 2013 by BigBuff423

[thebandit27]

The other issue in pointing out the poor running attack is that for several games, and the last half against Cleveland, there were back-up and PS QBs...Thad did well against Miami but Tuel struggled against KC and in his relief at Cleveland. Its signficance is this: when an opposing Defense prepares for the games against the BILLS, do we not believe that their single mission was to STOP the RBs and make the aforementioned QBs beat them??? In other words, the perception was that the QBs would be struggling, so take away the BILLS' strength in the running game and make the QBs play...JETS did this but EJ was a solid QB in that game, and with the Steelers he was just coming back. So, it seems to keep it all fair, we should remember that the game plan in four or five of those games was to focus on their running game and put multiple fronts against the run....just a thought?

 

Well-stated, 100% agree.

 

Just one thing though: I'm pretty sure you meant Thad struggled against NO, not KC. The point is still accurate, as Tuel definitely struggled against KC as the game wore on.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

 

 

Rushing performances against the Jets this season:

 

TB - 65 yds (2.6 ypc)

NE - 54 (2.3 ypc)

Buf - 120 (4.8)

Ten - 78 (2.5)

Atl - 64 (2.9)

Pit - 73 (2.8)

NE - 90 (4.5)

Cin - 79 (3.2)

NO - 41 (3.2)

Buf - 68 (1.8)

Bal - 67 (2.2)

 

You continue to cherry pick...

 

Nobody has run on the Jets this season...nobody. Both Buffalo and NE had games that looked statistically decent, except that each benefited from one long run that skewed the stats.

 

I'm genuinely curious if you have any response on my comments regarding the performances against Carolina, Baltimore, Cleveland, and Cincinnati, all of whom rank in the top 11 in run defense (and in YPC)?

 

Great post.

 

It's why I immediately discounted the jets game. Yeah, we can get better up front. But the worst thing to do is use a game against the no. 1 run defense as a barometer.

[JPS]

Rushing performances against the Jets this season:

 

TB - 65 yds (2.6 ypc)

NE - 54 (2.3 ypc)

Buf - 120 (4.8)

Ten - 78 (2.5)

Atl - 64 (2.9)

Pit - 73 (2.8)

NE - 90 (4.5)

Cin - 79 (3.2)

NO - 41 (3.2)

Buf - 68 (1.8)

Bal - 67 (2.2)

 

You continue to cherry pick...

 

Nobody has run on the Jets this season...nobody. Both Buffalo and NE had games that looked statistically decent, except that each benefited from one long run that skewed the stats.

 

I'm genuinely curious if you have any response on my comments regarding the performances against Carolina, Baltimore, Cleveland, and Cincinnati, all of whom rank in the top 11 in run defense (and in YPC)?

I'll bite….The Bills stats looked decent for the same reason they and NE looked good against the Jets…..1 long run. CJ had a 46 yard run in the Carolina game (3 yard avg otherwise) and a 54 yard run in the Cleveland game (3 yard avg otherwise). The Cincinnati game was ok at 4 yards per carry. The Baltimore game was skewed by 56 rushing attempts fueled by Flacco's 5 INT's. The Bills' YPC was still less than 4 for the game.

 

I think it may be among the worst O-lines the Bills ever had. I buy the TE argument, but if the Bills draft ANYTHING other than O-line, front 7 or TE….they will continue to struggle against the more physical teams in the league, like the Jets and Patriots.

[thebandit27]

I'll bite….The Bills stats looked decent for the same reason they and NE looked good against the Jets…..1 long run. CJ had a 46 yard run in the Carolina game (3 yard avg otherwise) and a 54 yard run in the Cleveland game (3 yard avg otherwise). The Cincinnati game was ok at 4 yards per carry. The Baltimore game was skewed by 56 rushing attempts fueled by Flacco's 5 INT's. The Bills' YPC was still less than 4 for the game.

 

I think it may be among the worst O-lines the Bills ever had. I buy the TE argument, but if the Bills draft ANYTHING other than O-line, front 7 or TE….they will continue to struggle against the more physical teams in the league, like the Jets and Patriots.

 

Thanks for your response.

 

I think there's a significant contrast in a 59-yard run being the difference between a 4.8 YPC average and a 2.5 YPC average--as was the case in the first Jets' game--and the ones you mention. You're talking about the difference between one long run accounting for half the team's rushing yards versus one long run accounting for less than 1/3 in the other games.

 

As for the Baltimore game, any time a team racks up 200 yards rushing it's hard to say that it wasn't a solid effort. Consider that Baltimore is yielding a paltry 102.6 YPG average, that's pretty significant. The 3.7 YPC that Buffalo hit them with also includes EJ's 5 kneel-downs for -16 yards on the final clock-killing drive. Take those away and you're talking about 50 carries for 216 yards (solid 4.3 YPC).

 

If you think this OL is among the worst the Bills have ever had, I can only conclude that you did not watch the team between 1998 and 2008.

[Luxy312]

No, a total of 17 isn't that bad. But, currently the Bills have allowed 32 sacks, 8th most in the NFL. Interestingly, the Bills are currently #4 in the NFL in QB hits allowed with 77.

 

Clearly, the Bills O line has performed much, much better at pass blocking, and while at home in Buffalo. They were particularly bad in all areas on the road at New Orleans & Pittsburgh.

 

Last weeks rushing at home was so pathetic it should alarming to some Bills coaches, and really make them think about whats happening with that line. 38 attempts for 68 yards for a 1.8 YPC average, wasn't just bad, it was god awful bad!! Like I stated earlier in this thread, that the Bills shouldn't force the rookie QB to carry the team to wins every week. Putting in an extra OT to block instead of a TE, to running the 4 WR spread offense to force a LBer to cover a WR, and if the defense shifts to nickle or dime coverage it allows the RBs the advantage.

 

Even the Bills coaches themselves admit they need to work on correct the problem with the run game. http://www.buffalobi...45-7a62d388199f

 

 

The Bills need a new LG for certain, and if the Bills only played home games, and only passed then the current line would be fine. Since no team can win consistently by being one dimensional, I can only hope that RG & RT also get addressed by next season.

 

 

http://www.nfl.com/s...false&Submit=Go

 

 

 

BTW, the run game should look much better at home against the #28 ranked run defense of the Falcons.

 

You know what I did was looked just at Manuel. I do think he makes a difference as well, but clearly he didn't play all the games.

[JPS]

Thanks for your response.

 

I think there's a significant contrast in a 59-yard run being the difference between a 4.8 YPC average and a 2.5 YPC average--as was the case in the first Jets' game--and the ones you mention. You're talking about the difference between one long run accounting for half the team's rushing yards versus one long run accounting for less than 1/3 in the other games.

 

As for the Baltimore game, any time a team racks up 200 yards rushing it's hard to say that it wasn't a solid effort. Consider that Baltimore is yielding a paltry 102.6 YPG average, that's pretty significant. The 3.7 YPC that Buffalo hit them with also includes EJ's 5 kneel-downs for -16 yards on the final clock-killing drive. Take those away and you're talking about 50 carries for 216 yards (solid 4.3 YPC).

 

If you think this OL is among the worst the Bills have ever had, I can only conclude that you did not watch the team between 1998 and 2008.

Nah, I've been along for this entire ride all the way back to the Electric Co. The line has just been so bad for so long it's amazing. And even the years considered deep in O-line talent, the Bills would rather take defensive backs (please explain Duke Williams and Jon Meeks) than some Grade A beef.

 

The Bills won the Baltimore game due to INT's, not the running game. Although, I must say, it was a pretty decent effort all around.

 

Pass rusher, DL or OL. Anything else (absent a special player like Patrick Peterson), will be annoying.

[Cheddar's Dad]

 

If you think this OL is among the worst the Bills have ever had, I can only conclude that you did not watch the team between 1998 and 2008.

 

Bandit, are you referring to our super bowl years when we had Will Wolford and House Ballard blocking for Thurman and Davis and Kelly? Looks like you've been dipping into the egg nog a little early?

[Dibs]

On the same page? Not likely. Let me repeat; Guard is no different than any other position. The longer you wait in the draft to fill a position of need the less likely are you chances of getting a good player. I suggested you do a failure rate study. You declined. Guess you don't want to know the facts.

.....

 

I have done a study on this which I posted last off-season. My attachments are gone from that thread & I haven't the energy to add them here...but...

 

Though the study I did had certain criteria that doesn't correlate 100% to our needs here, it clearly showed the OG position being selected at a much lower rate in the higher rounds. At a rough look it appears that there is a 2/3 round drop in where they are selected.

 

This showed that OGs selected in the 1st round had an very high success rate compared to those of most other positions. It also showed that the 2nd round success rate was extremely high though a bit lesser than the 1st round.

 

It was the same in the 3rd round.....but the percentages became far less. Under the criteria I had set, the percentages of starters(that remained with their drafting team) were....

 

1st round: 44%

2nd round: 36%

3rd round: 13%

4th/5th round: 8%

6th/7th round: 7%

 

All of the above percentages were the best percentages out of all of the positions that I looked at.

 

The numbers don't include however the number of OTs converted to OG in the NFL which possibly(likely?) would raise the lower round percentages a bit higher.

 

 

You are correct that OG is no different to any other position in regards to the concept that the success rate generally reduces as the selection number increases......and though the percentages are higher than other positions, choosing to draft an OG after the 2nd round when you are in need of an OG is (like every other position) pot luck on whether you find a guy to fill your need.

 

IMO, if one needs an OG(which we do), drafting one in the 2nd round provides the best value for pick.

I would also draft OGs in the 6th/7th rounds as my flyer picks, as the success rates for OG in those rounds is much higher than most other positions.....but not to fill a position of need.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Dibs

[thewildrabbit]

I'll bite….The Bills stats looked decent for the same reason they and NE looked good against the Jets…..1 long run. CJ had a 46 yard run in the Carolina game (3 yard avg otherwise) and a 54 yard run in the Cleveland game (3 yard avg otherwise). The Cincinnati game was ok at 4 yards per carry. The Baltimore game was skewed by 56 rushing attempts fueled by Flacco's 5 INT's. The Bills' YPC was still less than 4 for the game.

 

I think it may be among the worst O-lines the Bills ever had. I buy the TE argument, but if the Bills draft ANYTHING other than O-line, front 7 or TE….they will continue to struggle against the more physical teams in the league, like the Jets and Patriots.

Naa, no way, I don't agree. This years O line has played decently at times. As for the rushing against the Jets with the 1.8 YPC. Well then yea, as that might be the worst I've seen ever by a Buffalo Bills team.

 

Think back to what prompted Dick Jauron to draft Levitre and Wood in the same draft in 2009. Because in 2008 they had Jason Peters & Langston Walker at the tackle position with Dockery, Butler at G, and Duke Preston at center.

 

Against the NY Jets, their NT Kris Jenkins was triple teamed by both Bills guards and the center and still got to Trent Edwards. The Bills just couldn't stop Jenkins all game. It was thoroughly embarrassing as it was noted by the game announcer Phil Sims. Then the Bills had basically the same problem with the Patriots NT Vince Wilfork. C'mon, Mansfield Wrotto at RT & Demetress Bell at LT, where are those two now?

 

In 2010 the Bills had a much worse O line for at least the first 5 games, what with Fitz literally running for his life and until RT Cornell Green was benched and eventually released. GM Buddy Nix scoured the waiver wire and found both Pears & Urbik who went on to become somewhat decent starters. RT Green was just about as bad as this years flop at LG, Colin Brown.

Edited November 26, 2013 by FeartheLosing

[Bill from NYC]

I'll bite….The Bills stats looked decent for the same reason they and NE looked good against the Jets…..1 long run. CJ had a 46 yard run in the Carolina game (3 yard avg otherwise) and a 54 yard run in the Cleveland game (3 yard avg otherwise). The Cincinnati game was ok at 4 yards per carry. The Baltimore game was skewed by 56 rushing attempts fueled by Flacco's 5 INT's. The Bills' YPC was still less than 4 for the game.

 

I think it may be among the worst O-lines the Bills ever had. I buy the TE argument, but if the Bills draft ANYTHING other than O-line, front 7 or TE….they will continue to struggle against the more physical teams in the league, like the Jets and Patriots.

 

JPS, this was a GREAT post, but I must strongly disagree with this:

>>>I think it may be among the worst O-lines the Bills ever had.<<<

 

My friend, NO WAY!!! I want to refresh your memory if I may:

 

Corey Hulsey

Jamie Nails

Terrance Pennington

Aaron Merz

Marcus Spriggs (one of the worst blockers I ever saw)

Tutan Reyes

Jerry Ostroski

Greg Jerman (THE absolute worst blocker I have ever seen, to the point that I was literally worried about players getting killed)

 

This line needs a LG, but none of our starters are as bad as those listed above. Pears isn't a star RT but he is clearly superior to these horrible players.

[GunnerBill]

To slightly change tact within the overall context of the thread for a second..... how many O-Line men do people think we should be looking for in the off season? Obviously you want to bring in as many better players as possible to help the team, but minimum on the Offensive Line I think we need at least 3. I'd be looking to draft someone in the early rounds (probably second) try and bring in at least one solid veteran and then draft another guy with a late round pick who you can work with and develop. If you got from that a starting LG, a replacement RT, with Pears staying as depth and a young back up with potential to get better I'd take that. Doesn't mean I wouldn't like us to be even more aggressive in free agency if good options are available out there mind you.

[3rdand12]

too me its kinda simple.

Bills have weakness at LG and potentially LG depth. If mr Legursky qualifies as depth upon the time his replacement is aquired.

Our mr Pears is aging and can use an upgrade too. And if Hairston is truly gone we need a swing tackle position filled . so we might need a starter soon enough and the backup depending on Pears abililty to play the LT in a pinch.

Thats two to four players. Myself i would like to see overhauls at LG and RT then strong support behind them who can play multiple postions. i think its a need more than wish .

If they go after those players , that will be wise and will be interesting to me . And how they get em doesnt matter. Our line is struggling still. Cj and Fred should have to be dealing with safeties one on one by now. The only change was Legursky. every other year it was multiple positions played by multiple players on our poor oft injured O line. Healthy they should be performing a bit better imo

Edited November 27, 2013 by 3rdand12

[timtebow15]

I have actually surprised in a good way by the line. I just wish the front office had addressed the G position offseason instead of trotting out the awful first guy Colon Brown who blew. LT looks good, C is solid, RT okay, one G ave and one still below average. Depth is poor. Pass blocking has held up. Run blocking marginal and can't open holes against an elite run D. We are like a baseball team that always goes into a season with a mediocre rotation hoping no one gets injured and everyone has career years. Those rotations always end up average which happens to the Bills o-line as well. I hope they really address the line next offseason so maybe it can be a strength even if there is an injury or two.

[JPS]

JPS, this was a GREAT post, but I must strongly disagree with this:

>>>I think it may be among the worst O-lines the Bills ever had.<<<

 

My friend, NO WAY!!! I want to refresh your memory if I may:

 

Corey Hulsey

Jamie Nails

Terrance Pennington

Aaron Merz

Marcus Spriggs (one of the worst blockers I ever saw)

Tutan Reyes

Jerry Ostroski

Greg Jerman (THE absolute worst blocker I have ever seen, to the point that I was literally worried about players getting killed)

 

This line needs a LG, but none of our starters are as bad as those listed above. Pears isn't a star RT but he is clearly superior to these horrible players.

Winner winner chicken dinner. My god is that a bad O-line!! I relent. The current line is a wall compared to that line!

 

Let's just agree that bad is bad. They need help.

[stony]

Bandit, are you referring to our super bowl years when we had Will Wolford and House Ballard blocking for Thurman and Davis and Kelly? Looks like you've been dipping into the egg nog a little early?

 

Ahhhhhh, the Glory Year's when the Bills made it to four straight Super Bowls from 1998-2001. What was it about the egg nog again...

Edited November 27, 2013 by stony

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Winner winner chicken dinner. My god is that a bad O-line!! I relent. The current line is a wall compared to that line!

 

Let's just agree that bad is bad. They need help.

 

The Bills current edition is one of the better O-lines in the NFL, definitely top 3rd of the league and arguably top quarter of the league (top 8).

 

To the subject:

 

1) If you follow the NFL closely you'll know that there are numerous truly horrific O-lines out there and that there are many fanbases who are dissatisfied with their team's offensive line.

 

2) There is not one single great offensive line out there right now and in fact this has actually been the case for several years now.

 

3) The biggest factor in offensive line success is having a great quarterback who understands protections, makes the correct protection calls, audibles into successful plays (pass or run) and gets rid of the ball on time.

 

Funny how few people here seem to comprehend what a huge advantage it was having a QB like Ryan Fitzpatrick last year as opposed to essentially having 3 rookie starters this year.

 

5) Having a great offensive line featuring numerous highly-drafted players is a very rare occurrence both historically and in the present day. Most of the great offensive lines in history featured a mix of high draft picks, low draft picks, and unsigned free agents.

 

6) Offensive line play is as much about toughness, intelligence, and teamwork as it is anything.

 

7) The offensive line of the Buffalo Bills is not in any way limiting the team's success and is better than O-lines on teams which have recently won Super Bowls.

 

8) This offensive line didn't allow a single sack to the (then) highest sacking team in the NFL, the Kansas City Chiefs. This offensive line has played against some of the best defensive fronts in the NFL.

 

When this team gets better QB play, only the O-line fetishists will still be clamoring for an improved offensive line.

Edited November 27, 2013 by San Jose Bills Fan

[....lybob]

The Bills current edition is one of the better O-lines in the NFL, definitely top 3rd of the league and arguably top quarter of the league (top 8).

 

To the subject:

 

1) If you follow the NFL closely you'll know that there are numerous truly horrific O-lines out there and that there are many fanbases who are dissatisfied with their team's offensive line.

 

2) There is not one single great offensive line out there right now and in fact this has actually been the case for several years now.

 

3) The biggest factor in offensive line success is having a great quarterback who understands protections, makes the correct protection calls, audibles into successful plays (pass or run) and gets rid of the ball on time.

 

Funny how few people here seem to comprehend what a huge advantage it was having a QB like Ryan Fitzpatrick last year as opposed to essentially having 3 rookie starters this year.

 

5) Having a great offensive line featuring numerous highly-drafted players is a very rare occurrence both historically and in the present day. Most of the great offensive lines in history featured a mix of high draft picks, low draft picks, and unsigned free agents.

 

6) Offensive line play is as much about toughness, intelligence, and teamwork as it is anything.

 

7) The offensive line of the Buffalo Bills is not in any way limiting the team's success and is better than O-lines on teams which have recently won Super Bowls.

 

8) This offensive line didn't allow a single sack to the (then) highest sacking team in the NFL, the Kansas City Chiefs. This offensive line has played against some of the best defensive fronts in the NFL.

 

When this team gets better QB play, only the O-line fetishists will still be clamoring for an improved offensive line.

The thing with the Oline is you don't need an all-pro at every position but a weak-link like Collin Brown will be attacked unmercifully and lose you games - so did the Bills absolutely need Levitre? no! but you can't be replacing him with a weak-sister either. The Bills have quality players at the two most important Oline positions LT and C they just need solid players at the other three. As for the draft I think the Bills should still be in a BPA mode with extra consideration given to TE and LB if things are relatively equal.

[ganesh]

Levitre himself was a second rounder as well wasn't he if my memory serves? I think 2nd round is where I'd be looking for an O-Line man in the 2014 draft.

Agreed....Would like a stud TE in Rd1, OG in Rd2, DE in Rd3, DBs in 4 & 5, LB in 6&7.