Anyone catch the special on the French Revolution?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Last nite, History channel did a 2-hour show on the French Revolution. They made what I consider to be an incorrect statement:

 

They stated that the French Revolution was the STANDARD for modern revolutions, and that it was the one so often imitated at the end of the colonial era.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ho Chi Minh state that one of his heroes was Geroge Washington? And didn't the American revolution take place nearly a decade before the French?

 

Also, was not the US Constitution penned several years before the declaration of the rights of man?

 

Maybe I'm confused, but I think the American revolution set the precedent even for the French to follow.

[SilverNRed]

Last nite, History channel did a 2-hour show on the French Revolution. They made what I consider to be an incorrect statement:

 

They stated that the French Revolution was the STANDARD for modern revolutions, and that it was the one so often imitated at the end of the colonial era.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ho Chi Minh state that one of his heroes was Geroge Washington? And didn't the American revolution take place nearly a decade before the French?

 

Also, was not the US Constitution penned several years before the declaration of the rights of man?

 

Maybe I'm confused, but I think the American revolution set the precedent even for the French to follow.

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I read a book called "Citizens" in college a few years back about the French Revolution and it pretty much stated that the whole thing started because they wanted to have the kind of progressive government that we'd just established. Of course, they couldn't seem to make up their minds as to whether the King was to be the leader in making the changes or the one standing in the way (they kept changing their minds and eventually just chopped his head off).

[DC Tom]

They stated that the French Revolution was the STANDARD for modern revolutions, and that it was the one so often imitated at the end of the colonial era.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ho Chi Minh state that one of his heroes was Geroge Washington? And didn't the American revolution take place nearly a decade before the French?

 

Also, was not the US Constitution penned several years before the declaration of the rights of man?

 

Maybe I'm confused, but I think the American revolution set the precedent even for the French to follow.

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I don't think those two ideas are fundamentally inconsistent. Despite being inspired by the American Revolution, the French Revolution was fundamentally different in the intent of replacing an existing government with a newer and more progressive one (as opposed to the American Revolution, which led to independence from an existing government and formation of a new country without effecting a fundamental change in said existing government). As such, the French Revolution better fits the post-colonial paradigm of revolution than the American one.

[SilverNRed]

Amazon Link

 

Here's a link to the book I was just talking about. Some of the reviewers agree with what I just said but others seem to think the book "punctures the myth" that the French Revolution was inspired by the American one.

[Britbillsfan]

Pah. Glorious Revolution and the Declaration of Rights, 1689. (Democratically elected parliament, right to free and fair elections, free speech, taxation, blah, blah, blah). Or stretching an argument still further the Magna Carta in 1215, English Civil War and the execution of King Charles I in 1649, etc, etc

 

Washington & Co were following in a long established tradition in the mother country of telling kings to go stuff themselves (on occassion fatally) when they denied people fair rights. And quite right too!

 

French took forever to get into the act, comparatively.

 

Revolutions against dictorial monarchs have been going on a long time. Of course you lot and the French (eventually) managed to get rid of the wastrels permanently. I can but dream........

[DC Tom]

Pah. Glorious Revolution and the Declaration of Rights, 1689. (Democratically elected parliament, right to free and fair elections, free speech, taxation, blah, blah, blah). Or stretching an argument still further the Magna Carta in 1215, English Civil War and the execution of King Charles I in 1649, etc, etc

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I don't consider any of those really a stretch...save for the fact that you STILL live in a monarchy...

[Britbillsfan]

I don't consider any of those really a stretch...save for the fact that you STILL live in a monarchy...   

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Bastard.....

 

Modern monarchy (an oxymoron, surely) = inefficient use of my (and everyone elses') £s.

 

It really annoys me that there is one family in this country that has utterly different rights to everyone else just because, ultimately, in ages past their ancestors were more vicious bastards than anyone else's.

 

Great believer in getting to your station in life via merit and the Saxe-Gotha-Windsor-Whatever-their-REAL-name-is are just a rediculously wealthy, barely taxed (in comparison to everyone else) dysfunctional family on the biggest welfare ticket in town. AAAAAARGH!!!!!!

 

Pickle them all and put them in a museum so the babbling masses can go and 'oooh' and 'aaaah' at them.

 

(The monarchy and the constant fawning to those bloody ......GERMANS...... is one of the few things I truely dislike about the UK, if you had not guessed)

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Bastard.....

 

Modern monarchy (an oxymoron, surely) = inefficient use of my (and everyone elses') £s.

 

It really annoys me that there is one family in this country that has utterly different rights to everyone else just because, ultimately, in ages past their ancestors were more vicious bastards than anyone else's.

 

Great believer in getting to your station in life via merit and the Saxe-Gotha-Windsor-Whatever-their-REAL-name-is are just a rediculously wealthy, barely taxed (in comparison to everyone else) dysfunctional family on the biggest welfare ticket in town. AAAAAARGH!!!!!!

 

Pickle them all and put them in a museum so the babbling masses can go and 'oooh' and 'aaaah' at them.

 

(The monarchy and the constant fawning to those bloody ......GERMANS...... is one of the few things I truely dislike about the UK, if you had not guessed)

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What fawning to the Germans are you speaking about?

[Britbillsfan]

What fawning to the Germans are you speaking about?

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The British Royal family are to a very large degree of German descent. (I don't really hold that against them, it just gives me something else to rant about ). The name was changed in 1917 as the royal family decided it would be better to be known as the House of Windsor (good, solid English title) than the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (as German as Lederhosen and Oktoberfest) whilst at war with the....Germans.

 

George III (you might know of him) was from the House of Hannover - so you can see the ties go back quite some way.

[GG]

Pickle them all and put them in a museum so the babbling masses can go and 'oooh' and 'aaaah' at them.

 

210073[/snapback]

 

I thought that's what their job is now. You mean the Queen is real? Damn, at least Disney puts on more fancy lights at their parades than the changing of the Bucky Palace guards.

[DC Tom]

I thought that's what their job is now.  You mean the Queen is real?  Damn, at least Disney puts on more fancy lights at their parades than the changing of the Bucky Palace guards.

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Technically (and someone correct me if I'm wrong), the Queen is the head of the British state...but as head of state, her power is strictly limited to inviting whatever party holds sway in Parliment to form a government and appoint ministers, or something like that.

 

That, and keeping butt-ugly dogs as pets...

[DC Tom]

The British Royal family are to a very large degree of German descent. (I don't really hold that against them, it just gives me something else to rant about  ). The name was changed in 1917 as the royal family decided it would be better to be known as the House of Windsor (good, solid English title) than the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (as German as Lederhosen and Oktoberfest) whilst at war with the....Germans.

 

George III (you might know of him) was from the House of Hannover - so you can see the ties go back quite some way.

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If you read a history of WWI, particularly the run-up to the whole mess, it's truly amazing how the whole war ends up looking like some sort of dysfunctional sibling rivalry writ large. Every monarch is another monarch's cousin.

[Britbillsfan]

If you read a history of WWI, particularly the run-up to the whole mess, it's truly amazing how the whole war ends up looking like some sort of dysfunctional sibling rivalry writ large.  Every monarch is another monarch's cousin.

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Absolutely. (Although I have seen between war American isolationist propaganda that stated that it was the 'military-industrial-complex' that actually caused the war via a conspiracy in order to maximise their profits....sheeeesh ).

 

The Kaiser probably suffered from the same malady that struck down poor old George III (but not quite to the same degree) and it is very likely that his madness contributed big time to the outbreak of hostilities. (Another reason for getting rid of monarchies - if you get a complete fruit loop it can be very difficult to get rid of them in most cases before they can do too much damage)

 

Mind you he was also a complete evil scumbag (on coming to power the Nazis sent a delegation to ask his views on various topical subjects of the day, on asking what he thought should happen his reply was 'The Jews? They should all be gassed', the first indication on record anywhere of what would became the 'final solution').

[OnTheRocks]

you must really hate the "glockenspiel" in the UK!!

[Britbillsfan]

Nah, but do prefer Cowbell..........

[Guest RabidBillsFanVT]

Kaiser Wilhelm was a nut job, anyhow... Queen Victoria could at least keep some kind of motherly hold on him, from what I have read. Her death in 1901 probably removed the last true barrier for the Kaiser's scruples, opening a plan of domination of Europe... not in a lebensraum sense, but in a 'We're number 1, strongest in Europe' kind of sense.

 

Anyways, about the French Revolution... it was modeled after ours, and the American government that evolved was modeled after the French ideas of liberty, fraternity, and equality, sewn by men such as Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin. The union of French ideas and American action were very complimentary...

 

If ONLY they hadn't created the Republic that favored plurality... then they wouldn't be in the constant messes they find themselves in. Our government is VERY stable compared to them!!

 

So, the argument is pointless... we are forever linked.

[DC Tom]

Absolutely. (Although I have seen between war American isolationist propaganda that stated that it was the 'military-industrial-complex' that actually caused the war via a conspiracy in order to maximise their profits....sheeeesh  ).

 

The Kaiser probably suffered from the same malady that struck down poor old George III (but not quite to the same degree) and it is very likely that his madness contributed big time to the outbreak of hostilities. (Another reason for getting rid of monarchies - if you get a complete fruit loop it can be very difficult to get rid of them in most cases before they can do too much damage)

 

Mind you he was also a complete evil scumbag (on coming to power the Nazis sent a delegation to ask his views on various topical subjects of the day, on asking what he thought should happen his reply was 'The Jews? They should all be gassed', the first indication on record anywhere of what would became the 'final solution').

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The thing about Kaiser Wilhelm that no one ever hears about, though, is that he tried to STOP the war...or almost tried. When the Serbs replied to the ten points of the Austro-Hungarian ultimatum, they actually accepted nine of them and were willing to submit the tenth to international arbitration (Austro-Hungarian oversight of the Serbian legal process in trying Prinzip's co-conspirators - basically, a demand that Austria-Hungary be given control of the Serbian judicial process, which is a ludicrous demand, and shows just how far the Serbs were willing to go to avoid war.) The Kaiser, on hearing of the response, composed a diplomatic note to Emperor Franz Josef advising that Serbia's response was acceptable and Germany thus would not back them if it came to war.

 

His advisors talked him out of sending the note. If he had...who knows? Maybe the whole thing just becomes another skirmish in the Greater Balkan War of 1911-1919...no Russian Revolution, no Versailles, no anti-Versailles German nationalistic backlash, no Hitler or Stalin...

 

I always had a tough time buying the story that Kaiser Wilhelm was any worse than his fellow royalty just because Germany was the strongest of the Central Powers...but still, should have stuck to your guns and sent the note, Wilhelm.

[/dev/null]

Nah, but do prefer Cowbell..........

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[Pine Barrens Mafia]

The thing about Kaiser Wilhelm that no one ever hears about, though, is that he tried to STOP the war...or almost tried.  When the Serbs replied to the ten points of the Austro-Hungarian ultimatum, they actually accepted nine of them and were willing to submit the tenth to international arbitration (Austro-Hungarian oversight of the Serbian legal process in trying Prinzip's co-conspirators - basically, a demand that Austria-Hungary be given control of the Serbian judicial process, which is a ludicrous demand, and shows just how far the Serbs were willing to go to avoid war.)  The Kaiser, on hearing of the response, composed a diplomatic note to Emperor Franz Josef advising that Serbia's response was acceptable and Germany thus would not back them if it came to war. 

 

His advisors talked him out of sending the note.    If he had...who knows?  Maybe the whole thing just becomes another skirmish in the Greater Balkan War of 1911-1919...no Russian Revolution, no Versailles, no anti-Versailles German nationalistic backlash, no Hitler or Stalin...

 

I always had a tough time buying the story that Kaiser Wilhelm was any worse than his fellow royalty just because Germany was the strongest of the Central Powers...but still, should have stuck to your guns and sent the note, Wilhelm. 

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Isn't it amazing how the most seemingly inconsequential of things (sending a short note) can end up changing EVERYTHING?

 

That's what I love about history, it's the old "for want of a shoe, the horse was lost" factor.

 

For instance....what if Jesus hadn't been crucified? Likely without martyrdom, his fame would not have spread, the old Pagan religions may have survived much longer, allowing the Roman tradition to continue in the west, sparing much of Europe from the Dark ages, etc....

[Britbillsfan]

Isn't it amazing how the most seemingly inconsequential of things (sending a short note) can end up changing EVERYTHING?

 

That's what I love about history, it's the old "for want of a shoe, the horse was lost" factor.

 

For instance....what if Jesus hadn't been crucified? Likely without martyrdom, his fame would not have spread, the old Pagan religions may have survived much longer, allowing the Roman tradition to continue in the west, sparing much of Europe from the Dark ages, etc....

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Western Roman Empire was doomed because of economics let alone anything else (Christianity was not such a big deal as the Romans eventually accepted and converted once they realised that the faith was not one that practised incest, cannibalism, infanticide, etc, etc which was what they thought it entailed early on) - almost all the rich provinces were in the east and over time the Romans could not afford to keep their hold on the outlying western provinces with the additional military they could then draw upon and as the Empire shrank, the enemies of Rome inched closer.

 

But alternative history is fun with all the 'what if' scenarios that are out there.