I'm confused about who drafted this rookie class, help.

[YoloinOhio]

The comment had like ZERO to do with "how front offices work" when selecting players.

 

It MEANT(i shouldnt have to xplain this really) that the move could be JUSTIFIED in the future by the marketing people(see Brandon, Russ) no matter what happens.

 

Make the move, give it your best shot, worry about selling it later. I am all for that approach. It's a crapshoot, and they know it. But the fan will be respected with an explanation at least. This is how free enterprise in general can work: either they put out what they think is good for them, and @*(# you, or they give it their best try, and appreciate the fact that you have an interest.

 

Seems like the Bills currently respect the latter, and I feel that's the best they could really do. (now i'll have a few "whaaat?? responses, but that's just how it goes!)

peace, out.

 

~AS

OK... but regardless of who was GM in title when EJ was selected, Whaley's role even prior to being GM was so critical in the draft process that there isn't really a way to justify himself out of it saying it was Buddy's pick unless he decides to come out and declare that he wanted x player and Buddy wanted EJ, and Buddy won. And for that matter, Marrone's role is huge as well. It doesn't make sense, because unless there was a divide in the FO/coaching staff on who to take you can't pin it on any one person regardless of who the "GM" was. They would have to announce a divided evaluation /decision-making leading up to draft day.... never something an org wants to admit. Edited November 17, 2013 by YoloInTheBlo

[1B4IDie]

While it is fact that Nix had been pushed aside to advisory status, there is not much reason to think there is any other motive other than alowing Buddy to save face. This was Whaley's draft through and through. Your conspiracy theory to "excuse" the Manuel pick or any other doesn't hold water. You clearly have an inflated view of your or any other fans viewpoint (or the media for that matter) to the Bills or any NFL organization. They don't have to justify their decisions to you and I doubt they stay up nights wondering how to excuse a pick away if it doesn't pan out. They make decisions to win games so they can keep their very lucrative jobs. They are an insular business that does not really care what you think. Whaley saw something in EJM that made him prefer to draft him over other players. If it doesn't work out, it clearly would put him or any GM on the hotseat, so he has as deep and investment in Manuel's success or failure as EJM himself. The difference being the player usually will be given another shot if they were a high pick. Whaley may not. This is a huge business with millions of dollars at stake. I doubt Doug Whaley thought he would have an easy out by blaming Nix if any of his draft picks didn't pan out. No one on the outside matters as they would not be the ones to dismiss Whaley from his highly paid position if he doesn't turn the team's fortunes around.

 

 

Excellent point, and one that I have emphasized in other posts. The irrationality on this board is stunning at times. Unless EJM simply digresses from this point on and looks similar to the Steelers/ 1st Jets game in every remaining contest, few NFL types would expect the Bills to draft another QB high in 2014. There is not much precedent for this in past drafts, so it would be something of a shock to NFL draft observers and media types as well.

I think you had too many drinks on your boat.

 

Your post seems like you are completely unfamiliar with sports entertainment. NFL GMs make excuses on a regular basis to the fans. A GM is not insulated at all by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Is this your opinion or do you have information that this is what happened? It really is kind of farfetched according to how NFL front offices work.

 

There are IF statements in my post. What exactly is far fetched?

[YoloinOhio]

I think you had too many drinks on your boat.

 

Your post seems like you are completely unfamiliar with sports entertainment. NFL GMs make excuses on a regular basis to the fans. A GM is not insulated at all by any stretch of the imagination.

 

 

 

There are IF statements in my post. What exactly is far fetched?

See my response two posts above - farfetched that they would label it as "Buddy's pick" if it didn't work out so as to absolve Whaley. Edited November 17, 2013 by YoloInTheBlo

[Boatdrinks]

I think you had too many drinks on your boat.

 

Your post seems like you are completely unfamiliar with sports entertainment. NFL GMs make excuses on a regular basis to the fans. A GM is not insulated at all by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I'm very familiar with sports "entertainment", thank you.(I've even spoken with Bill Polian personally a few times when I on occasion would see him in a behind the scenes live TV setting, but regardless ) I did not say a GM is "insulated", in that they are unaware of outside opinion(they don't care too much, though) but rather that organizations tend to be "insular" keeping most things in house and rarely criticizing each other publicly in the media, and brush off most criticisms from fans as they are generally reactive and irrational. So to think a GM would make an excuse publicly to a fan such as "well that was Buddy's pick" is not commonly done and is somewhat of a ridiculous notion.GM's rarely have fan contact beyond the odd TV or call in show appearance and tend to be very measured in their responses to questions.

[YoloinOhio]

I'm very familiar with sports "entertainment", thank you.(I've even spoken with Bill Polian personally a few times when I on occasion would see him in a behind the scenes live TV setting, but regardless ) I did not say a GM is "insulated", in that they are unaware of outside opinion(they don't care too much, though) but rather that organizations tend to be "insular" keeping most things in house and rarely criticizing each other publicly in the media, and brush off most criticisms from fans as they are generally reactive and irrational. So to think a GM would make an excuse publicly to a fan such as "well that was Buddy's pick" is not commonly done and is somewhat of a ridiculous notion.GM's rarely have fan contact beyond the odd TV or call in show appearance and tend to be very measured in their responses to questions.

As Bill Polian says, "If you listen to the fans, you'll wind up sitting with the fans."

[vincec]

When EJ was playing well and our other rookies were clicking (Woods, Kiko, Goodwin) we were all praising Whaley for what looked like one of the best Bills drafting classes ever. "This doesn't feel like a Buddy draft" or "You're insane if you think Whaley wasn't calling the shots at the draft table," were both posted ad infinium in all of TBD's draft related topics.

 

However, since EJ has started struggling, I'm now seeing, "Buddy drafted his QB and then left," or "Yet another draft mistake by the Buddy era" over and over.

 

Do we have any info on the driver's seat for the draft? Or did Buddy just draft our players playing poorly, while all of the good players are Whaley products?

It's only fair because Buddy Nix got the benefit of the same effect when he became GM. Good players were a sign of Buddy's influence in the front office, bad players were the work of Jauron. For a long time I called Buddy the teflon GM.

[Boatdrinks]

As Bill Polian says, "If you listen to the fans, you'll wind up sitting with the fans."

Right. Marv was fond of that one as well. But the point is, the fans don't fire a GM from their high paying job. They are only concerned with justifying their body of work to the guy who signs the checks and the team president.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

Right. Marv was fond of that one as well. But the point is, the fans don't fire a GM from their high paying job. They are only concerned with justifying their body of work to the guy who signs the checks and the team president.

 

The point is the guy who signs their check & the team president are involved in those decisions (especially one as big as a franchise QB).

[mart]

The only coach who has complete control over everything is Belicheck. I kind of believe the

 

draft was done by commitee with Brandon and Whaley having veto power over any scout or

 

coach including Marrone, but including the money men Overdorf and Littman saying what

 

Wilson would spend.

[Boatdrinks]

The only coach who has complete control over everything is Belicheck. I kind of believe the

 

draft was done by commitee with Brandon and Whaley having veto power over any scout or

 

coach including Marrone, but including the money men Overdorf and Littman saying what

 

Wilson would spend.

The money men have little to do with the draft, before or after. Salaries for drafted players are essentially dictated by a slotting system, based on draft position. The parameters for rookie contracts are defined by the C.B.A. and there is little room for variation. Wilson does not dictate NFL rookie salaries. They are based on the previous year's salary for the player selected in the same slot. That is why holdouts are a rare thing compared to the past. The entire salary structure is pretty much laid out by the CBA.

[FireChan]

It's only fair because Buddy Nix got the benefit of the same effect when he became GM. Good players were a sign of Buddy's influence in the front office, bad players were the work of Jauron. For a long time I called Buddy the teflon GM.

 

Yeah but some people act like Buddy has never brought in a good player.

[thewildrabbit]

I know that we always like to put it as 1 person but the reality is that every decision that this team has made has been collaborative since the Donahoe era. Buddy, Whaley, Russ and co., have worked together until they reached consensus. The reality is that there is praise and blame, like always, but it is 100% to be shared.

 

As an aside, I always chuckle when I hear "what a mess Marv left." He couldn't have had less say in his time. He was GM in name only.

I agree! From what I recall, Marv was questioned at that time and asked by the media as to who had the last say on draft picks. His reply was that it was a consensus of the scouts, coaching staff (Jauron), and himself. When pressed further for an for a more finite answer, he stated he left it up to Jauron to make the final decision.

 

As for this years draft class, it all goes to Doug Whaley. He stated after the draft that EJ was all his pick and his job will depend on his making the right choices in this draft. I have to think that Buddy Nix had some say in the evaluations, and that was about it.

 

Seems clear to me that this years draft class is far superior then anything Nix was responsible for doing.

[Bill from NYC]

I agree! From what I recall, Marv was questioned at that time and asked by the media as to who had the last say on draft picks. His reply was that it was a consensus of the scouts, coaching staff (Jauron), and himself. When pressed further for an for a more finite answer, he stated he left it up to Jauron to make the final decision.

 

This makes sense but do remember that Jauron was a Levy clone in terms of how to build a football team. I'm sure this is why Marv hired him. They both used up their best resources almost entirely on defensive backs starting in 2006, after which both of them should have been fired.

That said, neither of them ever should have been hired.

[CardinalScotts]

When EJ was playing well and our other rookies were clicking (Woods, Kiko, Goodwin) we were all praising Whaley for what looked like one of the best Bills drafting classes ever. "This doesn't feel like a Buddy draft" or "You're insane if you think Whaley wasn't calling the shots at the draft table," were both posted ad infinium in all of TBD's draft related topics.

 

However, since EJ has started struggling, I'm now seeing, "Buddy drafted his QB and then left," or "Yet another draft mistake by the Buddy era" over and over.

 

Do we have any info on the driver's seat for the draft? Or did Buddy just draft our players playing poorly, while all of the good players are Whaley products?

 

that is THIS board...turn it or twist it however it fits your argument....facts never figure in our thoughts

[Ronin]

When EJ was playing well and our other rookies were clicking (Woods, Kiko, Goodwin) we were all praising Whaley for what looked like one of the best Bills drafting classes ever. "This doesn't feel like a Buddy draft" or "You're insane if you think Whaley wasn't calling the shots at the draft table," were both posted ad infinium in all of TBD's draft related topics.

 

However, since EJ has started struggling, I'm now seeing, "Buddy drafted his QB and then left," or "Yet another draft mistake by the Buddy era" over and over.

 

Do we have any info on the driver's seat for the draft? Or did Buddy just draft our players playing poorly, while all of the good players are Whaley products?

 

LOL

 

You've pretty much got it, all the good that came from this Draft, and might as well throw in the last several since Whaley's been here as Asst. GM or head of personnel or whatever he was, can be attributed to Whaley. All the bad, Nix.

 

You see how it works.

 

Let's not forget, Brandon's a marketer. But he's pretty much getting what he wants, ticket sales. Seems like a lot of fans don't care about winning, they just want to see men run up and down the field regardless of whether or not there's competent team play or not. I'm not one of them.

[Buffaloed in Pa]

Buddy picked EJ, Whaley the rest. This is how it looks to me.

[Thisistheyear]

The absolute bigotry in Western New York and specifically Buffalo Bills fans when it comes to southerners who have an accent that is different than their own mid-western TWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGG is appalling.

You parochial hicks think the world begins and ends in Erie county are the epitome of snobbery and you should choke on your own vomit.

 

Wow. That escalated quickly.

[1B4IDie]

 

 

I'm very familiar with sports "entertainment", thank you.(I've even spoken with Bill Polian personally a few times when I on occasion would see him in a behind the scenes live TV setting, but regardless ) I did not say a GM is "insulated", in that they are unaware of outside opinion(they don't care too much, though) but rather that organizations tend to be "insular" keeping most things in house and rarely criticizing each other publicly in the media, and brush off most criticisms from fans as they are generally reactive and irrational. So to think a GM would make an excuse publicly to a fan such as "well that was Buddy's pick" is not commonly done and is somewhat of a ridiculous notion.GM's rarely have fan contact beyond the odd TV or call in show appearance and tend to be very measured in their responses to questions.

I guess you learned everything you need to know by brushing shoulders with Bill Polian.

 

So a GM wouldn't for example discuss draft picks directly with the fans?

 

Oh wait what is this.

 

GMs are very much involved in relations with the fan base but know it is all about winning. Their only real boss is the team's record.

 

I'm not saying Doug Whaley gets on a podium and says "Buddy drafted Manuel so I need to draft my guy" that is absurd. There is a certain basic understanding I assume the reader of my post has. So thanks for clarifying that the GM won't do that.

 

What will happen is Chris Brown will have a story about how the new QB is a Whaley kind of guy.

 

Then another media outlet like the buffalonews will have a story with an unarmed source that says that Nix forced everyone's hand on taking a QB early because he wanted it for his legacy.

 

Then the common public narrative changes and Manuel become Nix' guy.

 

That's how it is done.

 

That is if Manuel is unsuccessful.

 

If not than the narrative will be how Whaley saw Manuel's potential when most of the NFL had him as a second round or later QB.

 

The Bills have options in how the play out the story around the Manuel draft pick. It isn't set in stone right now.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Why So Serious?

[Kirby Jackson]

The odd reality of it is that the people that really cut the list are the scouts. Think about it like this, the CIA ultimately brings the intel to the president. They tell him who the terrorists are, where they are, what they are like and what they think is the appropriate action. Ultimately, the president makes the decision as to the action to take but he does not make it alone. 99 times out of 100 the people that he trusts in his inner circle are on the same page. A decision like the QB is one that a lot of people made collectively. If we are looking for someone to "fall on the sword for the pick" it will be Whaley but it was 100% a collective decision. The biggest naysayers in the room were most likely some of the scouts that graded him out differently.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Kirby Jackson

[1B4IDie]

The odd reality of it is that the people that really cut the list are the scouts. Think about it like this, the CIA ultimately brings the intel to the president. They tell him who the terrorists are, where they are, what they are like and what they think is the appropriate action. Ultimately, the president makes the decision as to the action to take but he does not make it alone. 99 times out of 100 the people that he trusts in his inner circle are on the same page. A decision like the QB is one that a lot of people made collectively. If we are looking for someone to "fall on the sword for the pick" it will be Whaley but it was 100% a collective decision. The biggest naysayers in the room were most likely some of the scouts that graded him out differently.

Exactly but The organization has the luxury of shifting blame to Nix and can take another swing at QB if the powers that be like Whaley's direction.

They make Nix the fall guy if it doesn't work out and take another QB.