The Curse of Flutie?

[EasternOHBillsFan]

The real curse here is that Rob Johnson turned out to be such a flaming dumpster fire that people remember Flutie to be a great QB...

 

I would like to know Thurman Thomas and Andre Reed's opinion of Flutie, because I'd bet they have an unfavorable opinion. Comparing RJ to Flutie is like comparing a nuclear waste site to a burn pit... both bad for your health in varying degrees.

 

Here's his playoff game numbers... and so to say he would have been better than RJ in that game is ludicrous. When facing a good team, he had no "magic"... all his magic was a last ditch effort to salvage the game he lost for 3 quarters!

 

L 13-27 11/31, 35.48% completion, 134 yards passing, 1TD, 2 INT

 

L 17-24 21/36, 58.33% completion, 360 yards passing, 1TD, 1 INT

Edited November 15, 2013 by BmoreBills

[dave mcbride]

Fair enough, and look, some posters that I like and respect a LOT disagree with me on this and on Flutie. I just think we get this "Flutie curse" thing coming up every year -- and I know it's generally tongue in cheek. I just don't think anything new is discovered in these conversations and it's just another way for many of us on either side to get embroiled in negativity - you're right that I needn't participate if it bothers me so much. I had read the Bucky column and knew about it before. It informed my own opinion, though I look at it now on a journalistic level and it is pretty bare - lots of "people on the inside know X."

 

Right now I think the only interesting thing that could come out of it is for a really good writer to get guys to go on record as to what went wrong and make a fascinating book about the drama. Till then, I think we're all just camped out in particular sites of opinion.

 

Also note that these "curse" posts don't usually come up at the start of the season (honeymoon period for a new team) or after a win (the dogs are called off). In addition, I started a joke one about how the real curse was the move of training camp from Fredonia, so I know it's all in good fun. I just want it to be fun.

 

Just my observations.

 

Excellent post. My recollection is that a variant of this thread comes up every year, and like a moth to flame, I can't resist.

 

I would like to know Thurman Thomas and Andre Reed's opinion of Flutie, because I'd bet they have an unfavorable opinion. Comparing RJ to Flutie is like comparing a nuclear waste site to a burn pit... both bad for your health in varying degrees.

 

Here's his playoff game numbers... and so to say he would have been better than RJ in that game is ludicrous. When facing a good team, he had no "magic"... all his magic was a last ditch effort to salvage the game he lost for 3 quarters!

Rk Year G# Date Age Tm Opp Result GS Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Int Rate Y/A AY/A Att Yds Y/A TD 2 Games 32 67 47.76% 494 2 3 63.9 7.37 5.96 6 41 6.83 0 1 1986 17 1987-01-03 24-072 CHI WAS L 13-27 * 11 31 35.48% 134 1 2 33.5 4.32 2.06 2 12 6.00 0 Passing Rushing Rk Year G# Date Age Tm Opp Result GS Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Int Rate Y/A AY/A Att Yds Y/A TD 2 1998 17 1999-01-02 36-071 BUF @ MIA L 17-24 * 21 36 58.33% 360 1 1 90.0 10.00 9.31 4 29 7.25 0

 

Miami had the #1 defense in the league that season, and held opposing QBs to a 55.2 rating over the course of 16 games. They led the league in INTs and were playing at home. Flutie made a couple of mistakes, but generally lit them up like a Christmas tree (with the help of Eric Moulds).

 

Fair enough, and look, some posters that I like and respect a LOT disagree with me on this and on Flutie. I just think we get this "Flutie curse" thing coming up every year -- and I know it's generally tongue in cheek. I just don't think anything new is discovered in these conversations and it's just another way for many of us on either side to get embroiled in negativity - you're right that I needn't participate if it bothers me so much. I had read the Bucky column and knew about it before. It informed my own opinion, though I look at it now on a journalistic level and it is pretty bare - lots of "people on the inside know X."

 

Right now I think the only interesting thing that could come out of it is for a really good writer to get guys to go on record as to what went wrong and make a fascinating book about the drama. Till then, I think we're all just camped out in particular sites of opinion.

 

Also note that these "curse" posts don't usually come up at the start of the season (honeymoon period for a new team) or after a win (the dogs are called off). In addition, I started a joke one about how the real curse was the move of training camp from Fredonia, so I know it's all in good fun. I just want it to be fun.

 

Just my observations.

 

PS - I will confess to not being a Johnson fan, which plays a part in all of this. To be sure, I wished him well and certainly didn't boo him. But I was at grad school at UCLA during Johnson's years at USC, and the talent level on that team was ridiculous. Yet he couldn't get it done. In three seasons as a starter, he never beat UCLA or ND, and threw a brutal, game-ending interception to Marquis Goodwin of UCLA (a team with less talent) with the freaking Rose Bowl on the line his junior year (right after completing a beautiful deep throw to Johnny Morton to the 2 yard line). In his senior year, he again washed out against a 5-6 UCLA team, losing 31-19 because he turned the ball over three times and took SIX SACKS! And I'm not exaggerating about the talent. In sequence, he had three first-round pick receivers who were all highly productive NFL receivers: Curtis Conway his sophomore year, Johnny Morton his junior year, and Keyshawn Johnson his senior year. His LT was Tony Boselli. The starting RDE was Willie McGinest. He had the same problem there as in the NFL - great arm and all the tools, but would fold in big games.

 

His brother, Bret Johnson, washed out of UCLA after one year despite being the #1 recruit in the country. He transferred to MSU and performed poorly there. I know you can't blame a person for his brother's failings, but there's something about that family ...

Edited November 15, 2013 by dave mcbride

[EasternOHBillsFan]

Miami had the #1 defense in the league that season, and held opposing QBs to a 55.2 rating over the course of 16 games. They led the league in INTs and were playing at home. Flutie made a couple of mistakes, but generally lit them up like a Christmas tree (with the help of Eric Moulds).

 

The point is that he never won a playoff game, and ALSO wasn't going to put his team into a position to make the playoffs without a high ranking defense to back him up. It took superhuman effort by the defense to cover for his glaring deficiencies, which explains who he only got two shots in his NFL career. No coincidence!

[dave mcbride]

The point is that he never won a playoff game, and ALSO wasn't going to put his team into a position to make the playoffs without a high ranking defense to back him up. It took superhuman effort by the defense to cover for his glaring deficiencies, which explains who he only got two shots in his NFL career. No coincidence!

 

It's a team game. QBs are important, but they're not starting pitchers. The better way to put it is that the Bills were 0-1 in the playoffs with Flutie as a starter.

Edited November 15, 2013 by dave mcbride

[RuntheDamnBall]

PS - I will confess to not being a Johnson fan, which plays a part in all of this. To be sure, I wished him well and certainly didn't boo him. But I was at grad school at UCLA during Johnson's years at USC, and the talent level on that team was ridiculous. Yet he couldn't get it done. In three seasons as a starter, he never beat UCLA or ND, and threw a brutal interception to Marquis Goodwin with the game on the line his junior year (right after completing a beautiful deep throw to Johnny Morton to the 2 yard line). In his senior year, he again washed out against UCLA, losing 31-19 because he turned the ball over. And I'm not exaggerating about the talent. In sequence, he had three first-round pick receivers who were all highly productive NFL receivers: Curtis Conway his sophomore year, Johnny Morton his junior year, and Keyshawn Johnson his senior year. His LT was Tony Boselli. The starting RDE was Willie McGinest. He had the same problem there as in the NFL - great arm and all the tools, but would fold in big games.

 

His brother, Bret Johnson, washed out of UCLA after one year despite being the #1 recruit in the country. He transferred to MSU and performed poorly there. I know you can't blame a person for his brother's failings, but there's something about that family ...

All interesting stuff. And yeah, I don't recall him being all-world at USC. He was a fourth round pick after all.

 

The biggest strike against Johnson was (sound familiar?) one not of his own making. Trading for him (and surrendering the #9 overall pick) turned out to be a franchise-altering decision. The player is almost always going to bear the brunt of fans' frustrations with such a move if it doesn't work out.

[dave mcbride]

All interesting stuff. And yeah, I don't recall him being all-world at USC. He was a fourth round pick after all.

 

The biggest strike against Johnson was (sound familiar?) one not of his own making. Trading for him (and surrendering the #9 overall pick) turned out to be a franchise-altering decision. The player is almost always going to bear the brunt of fans' frustrations with such a move if it doesn't work out.

Very true, and I don't dislike him as a human being. He couldn't help that Ralph actually went to that Jax-Ravens game in 1997 where he put up ridiculous numbers (true story about Ralph, who was a guest of Wayne Weaver). After his junior year, the general word was that he was a sure-fire first round pick because his size, arm strength, and accuracy put him in the blue chip category. He really was talented, as we all know. On draft day after his senior season, he expected to be taken in the first couple of rounds. The LA media treated his fall as precipitous and shocking. But as I recall, the reason given for the drop (by anonymous sources) was his makeup and failure to show up in big games.

Edited November 15, 2013 by dave mcbride

[dubs]

Fair enough, and look, some posters that I like and respect a LOT disagree with me on this and on Flutie. I just think we get this "Flutie curse" thing coming up every year -- and I know it's generally tongue in cheek. I just don't think anything new is discovered in these conversations and it's just another way for many of us on either side to get embroiled in negativity - you're right that I needn't participate if it bothers me so much. I had read the Bucky column and knew about it before. It informed my own opinion, though I look at it now on a journalistic level and it is pretty bare - lots of "people on the inside know X."

 

Right now I think the only interesting thing that could come out of it is for a really good writer to get guys to go on record as to what went wrong and make a fascinating book about the drama. Till then, I think we're all just camped out in particular sites of opinion.

 

Also note that these "curse" posts don't usually come up at the start of the season (honeymoon period for a new team) or after a win (the dogs are called off). In addition, I started a joke one about how the real curse was the move of training camp from Fredonia, so I know it's all in good fun. I just want it to be fun.

 

Just my observations.

 

I couldn't agree more with everything you just said. I would definitely love to read that book and find out really what happened. I have many friends that hate Flutie with the heat of a 1000 suns. I am leaning toward disliking the guy.

 

I think at the time though, he was good for the team, simply because they were winning. No one will ever know what would have happened if Flutie started that game, unfortunately. It's easy to say we would have won, but I don't think it's that simple. I happen to believe we would have, but obviously can't prove it. It it just another instance in Buffalo sports that has turned into a, "we let another opportunity slip through our fingers".

[tennesseeboy]

Really the issue isn't whether Flutie was good or Flutie was bad. The issue is that neither any team where Wade Phillips has coached nor the Buffalo Bills have been to the playoffs since that decision was made. God is punishing us, not because we didn't start the better qb (although many do say Flutie was the better one, and many disagree) but rather that he did not play against Tennessee. God liked Flutie and wanted him to play. Don't p@ss off the creator of the universe.

[Livinginthepast]

Haven't gone through this whole thread, but I know there are a lot of Flutoniams who can't comprehend why anyone would have a problem with little Dougie. Not sure if it has been brought up in this thread, but the Bucky Gleason article of 2001 is required reading on the subject. It is hard to find on the web now - but this old TSW post has the article:

 

http://forums.twobil...40#entry1467198

 

Count me in the crowd who considers Flutie a self-promoting me-first locker room cancer.

 

The most embarrased I've ever been as a Bills fan was during the SD game mentioned in the article. Flutie was playing for SD the year after leaving the Bills. I was at a packed 'Bills' bar watching the game, and a large group of a-hole 'Bills fans' were loudly cheering for Flutie and against the Bills the whole game. It made me sick.

That article was a steaming pile of crap. I can remember it from the time period and reading it again reminds of the irrational hatred of Flutie that various members of the media had for him. I really cannot explain this kind of stupidity. You resent Flutie's success because he doesnt fit the mold of what an NFL QB is supposed to be?. Gleason also defends poor RJ's feelings like he is an impressionable teenage girl. He then bizarrely lauds him as some sort of local mother Teresa in the community when I'm pretty sure that RJ spent most of his time in a hotel in Buffalo eating cereal and playing video games, hiding from the outside. I am pretty sure that Ravens fans dont resent the fact that perpetual bum Trent Dilfer won their first Super Bowl even though he was a joke of a QB for most of his career. He hardly fit the bill of an NFL QB. If Flutie had actually won us a Super Bowl you wouldn't hear a peep about his fictitious "character" issues. Instead we get the idiotic "I told you so's" when he left. What makes me laugh the most about this article is that Flutie was absolutely correct in balking at Donaho and weirdo creep Greg William's plans for the offense. You could probably see even a mile away that their plans to totally revamp what was a better than average offense for no reason would meet with disaster. He was probably glad to get the hell off the sinking ship. The fact that Donaho would be so clueless as to even consider RJ a viable option probably was the last straw for Flutie. I dont blame him one bit for standing his ground. As we soon saw both Donaho and everything he decided was a trainwreck. The bottom line is that Flutie gave the Bills of that era their best chance to win. Whether his skills were diminishing or not. RJ was the most colossal bust in Bills history. They should have played Flutie in that game win or lose. Taking him out of the Tennessee game was a bush league move professionally and strategically and I we have had 14 f'ing years to stew about it!

Edited November 17, 2013 by Livinginthepast