The Curse of Flutie?

[PO'14]

Love him or hate him...after watching that 17 minute clip, Ive come to realize one thing.....The Bills haven't had a QB that could drop a pass to player in Motion since Flutie. Some of those passes were beautiful. EJ should watch this clip!

[4merper4mer]

Are you sure it was the right games? I think you are WAY off. Pretty much every future result and metric from those games refutes what you are saying you witnessed.

 

Flutie played much better in the final half of that season than RJ played in the Wild Card game. Thats not saying much since Rob pretty much played a terrible game, but its different than what you are posing as the truth.

 

Do you suppose that had anything to do with the Titans defense? Don't read the stats and say how great Flutie played in the Arizona Cardinals game, because he didn't he sucked. Bad.

 

We lost that game so Johnson can never win this argument. Anyone who watched Flutie play that season knows in their heart that without some sort of miracle, he would have produced nothing whatsoever against the Titans D.

 

There were three major factors in us losing that game:

 

1. The Titans were a very good team

2. A bogus defensive holding on a FG attempt call

3. The ridiculous play at the end.

 

None of those were within RJ's control, nor would Flutie have been able to do anything about them.

[dave mcbride]

Meaning before his final 10-10 he was 12-25 against a terrible team, but that is not the entire point. You should be forced to watch the entire second half of the season if you are trying to make the case that somehow Flutie had not been figured out and stifled by the entire league.

 

I get that people want to think that we somehow robbed ourselves, no pun intended, of some sort of title but Flutie was terrible. Sorry.

 

http://www.pro-footb...ms/buf/1999.htm

 

Reality was uglier than those ugly stats.

 

You mean the final part of the game doesn't count? Did you watch the game? The weather was awful!

[dubs]

Do you suppose that had anything to do with the Titans defense? Don't read the stats and say how great Flutie played in the Arizona Cardinals game, because he didn't he sucked. Bad.

 

We lost that game so Johnson can never win this argument. Anyone who watched Flutie play that season knows in their heart that without some sort of miracle, he would have produced nothing whatsoever against the Titans D.

 

There were three major factors in us losing that game:

 

1. The Titans were a very good team

2. A bogus defensive holding on a FG attempt call

3. The ridiculous play at the end.

 

None of those were within RJ's control, nor would Flutie have been able to do anything about them.

 

The original point of this post wasn't to debate whether or not Buffalo would have won if Flutie was in there. The curse statement (as noted) was kind of a joke. What was surprising to me 14 years after the fact was how bad Rob Johnson played. I think that gets lost in the memories because Buffalo was in a position to win that game and should have won, despite RJ.

[dave mcbride]

Do you suppose that had anything to do with the Titans defense? Don't read the stats and say how great Flutie played in the Arizona Cardinals game, because he didn't he sucked. Bad.

 

We lost that game so Johnson can never win this argument. Anyone who watched Flutie play that season knows in their heart that without some sort of miracle, he would have produced nothing whatsoever against the Titans D.

 

There were three major factors in us losing that game:

 

1. The Titans were a very good team

2. A bogus defensive holding on a FG attempt call

3. The ridiculous play at the end.

 

None of those were within RJ's control, nor would Flutie have been able to do anything about them.

 

The 1998 Miami Dolphins defense: 1st in points allowed, 3rd in yards allowed, and 1st in interceptions.

Opponents' QB rating against them: 55.2.

Flutie's rating against them: 90.0.

 

The 1999 Titans defense: 15th in points allowed, 17th in yards allowed, 25th in passing yards allowed, and 17th in interceptions.

Opponent's rating against them: 80.0.

Johnson's rating against them: 45.4.

 

Flutie's lifetime sack rate: 4.7 percent.

Johnson's lifetime sack rate: 14.8 percent.

 

Johnson was sacked 6 times by Tennessee. I have a feeling that Flutie would have done a bit better on that front. As I'm sure you know, sacks are basically turnovers because they generally lead to punts.

Edited November 12, 2013 by dave mcbride

[Cugalabanza]

Ok, I'll ask one more time. I promise I'll never ask this again on this website: Why was Flutie somehow a cancer or a backstabbing midget or a negative influence in the locker room.

 

Regardless of the quality of his play, why do some fans hold such a grudge against the guy? If I had to pick a Bills QB to hate in the post Kelly era, I could name about 8 guys above Flutie.

[4merper4mer]

The 1998 Miami Dolphins defense: 1st in points allowed, 3rd in yards allowed, and 1st in interceptions.

 

The 1999 Titans defense: 15th in points allowed, 17th in yards allowed, 25th in passing yards allowed, and 17th in interceptions.

 

1999 Titans...went to Super Bowl

 

1998 Dolphins....thud

 

 

1998 and 1999:

 

Two different years.

 

 

1998 Flutie: Completely different than most defenses were used to seeing

 

1999 Flutie: Horrific QB that was going absolutely nowhere which was evident to anyone with eyes.

 

We did not win with Johnson. If people want to believe that we could have won with Flutie then go ahead. A lot of people believe in a lot of things.

[respk]

Flutie was nothing more than a average QB who was able to do some things that defenses weren't expecting. However, Flutie's contributions to the team went beyond the field, he played a large role in helping to sell the boxes and suites during those two seasons. Had that been left to Johnson the Bills may not have been able to sell them and it is quite possible the Bills would have been many steps closer to moving out of Buffalo. He definitely contributed to saving the franchise during that time period. Flutie was dynamic on and off the field whether you liked him or not. Johnson was a zero. One of the worst interviews, and that is saying alot for foot ball players, was with Rob Johnson. Between him eating his dinner as he was talking and absolute lack of a personality it was very, very painful.

[dubs]

1999 Titans...went to Super Bowl

 

1998 Dolphins....thud

 

 

1998 and 1999:

 

Two different years.

 

 

1998 Flutie: Completely different than most defenses were used to seeing

 

1999 Flutie: Horrific QB that was going absolutely nowhere which was evident to anyone with eyes.

 

We did not win with Johnson. If people want to believe that we could have won with Flutie then go ahead. A lot of people believe in a lot of things.

 

Uh…we won 10 games with Flutie and secured a playoff spot. Maybe it wasn't winning the way you want it to be, but how do you not acknowledge that? For better or worse, 15 games into the year you stick with what you got. If next year you want to move on, fine, so be it. But changing the QB who got you there just prior to the playoffs is suicide, unless its injury related.

 

It's like going to the prom with a decent looking girl and knowing you're going to get some action, then ditching her the night before the prom for the prom queen who has never put out in her life.

Edited November 12, 2013 by dubs

[dave mcbride]

1999 Titans...went to Super Bowl

 

1998 Dolphins....thud

 

 

1998 and 1999:

 

Two different years.

 

 

1998 Flutie: Completely different than most defenses were used to seeing

 

1999 Flutie: Horrific QB that was going absolutely nowhere which was evident to anyone with eyes.

 

We did not win with Johnson. If people want to believe that we could have won with Flutie then go ahead. A lot of people believe in a lot of things.

See additional stats above. The stats are actually pretty overwhelming. Flutie was a far better player than Johnson -- and I mean far better. Flutie was not an elite QB, and he obviously had limitations. But he was pretty good. Johnson was bad.

[QB Bills]

If you look at the "location" column, you'll see Bills called their final TO on the Titans' last drive. Tennessee called TO prior to the kick, so they would have had to run another play with 20 seconds and then spike the ball or run the FG team out if they wanted to run more clock.

yes, but couldn't they have theoretically done that? or not even run a play but rather kneel?

[dave mcbride]

1999 Titans...went to Super Bowl

 

1998 Dolphins....thud

 

 

1998 and 1999:

 

Two different years.

 

 

1998 Flutie: Completely different than most defenses were used to seeing

 

1999 Flutie: Horrific QB that was going absolutely nowhere which was evident to anyone with eyes.

 

We did not win with Johnson. If people want to believe that we could have won with Flutie then go ahead. A lot of people believe in a lot of things.

 

I hope you're factoring in sack rate, because it's a crucial stat when judging QBs.

[4merper4mer]

Ok, I'll ask one more time. I promise I'll never ask this again on this website: Why was Flutie somehow a cancer or a backstabbing midget or a negative influence in the locker room.

 

Regardless of the quality of his play, why do some fans hold such a grudge against the guy? If I had to pick a Bills QB to hate in the post Kelly era, I could name about 8 guys above Flutie.

 

There were examples given at the time about things he said to other players while Johnson was starting...not so much in the playoff game that I remember but back when he was Johnson's backup. At the time and now I have no way of knowing if they were true. I have also heard many other stories about his interactions with fans and self promotional tendencies....again without knowing if they are true. You'd really have to go back to the board from that time frame to see examples because I'm sure nobody is going to go looking on the web for you for Flutie stories or currency exchange rates. At least not from this board.

 

Personally I will say that I did not like the guy. I didn't really like Johnson too much either as a QB but as a person he was pretty quiet. Neither one of them was going to win us anything.

 

FWIW, back then I thought our best shot was to try to keep teams guessing as to which QB would play from week to week. It would have been hard to prep for both if they mixed it up from the start. Once teams figured out Flutie he was completely ineffective and any element of surprise was useless.

 

I hope you're factoring in sack rate, because it's a crucial stat when judging QBs.

 

You seem like you like Sabre's metrics but I watched the games. Flutie sucked badly in 1999. There is no chance whatsoever we could have won the Titans game with him.

 

Re -read that. At any point in there did I say that Johnson was a better QB than Flutie?

[QB Bills]

1999 Titans...went to Super Bowl

 

1998 Dolphins....thud

 

 

1998 and 1999:

 

Two different years.

 

 

1998 Flutie: Completely different than most defenses were used to seeing

 

1999 Flutie: Horrific QB that was going absolutely nowhere which was evident to anyone with eyes.

 

We did not win with Johnson. If people want to believe that we could have won with Flutie then go ahead. A lot of people believe in a lot of things.

dude, you are completely out to lunch here...there is ample evidence here refuting your claim, and all you can say is, "you had to have watched the games"

 

well i did, as did many others here, and he wasn't near as bad as you claim he was....more importantly, after seeing his body of work later on, i think its suffice to say, RJ would have done a lot worse

[dubs]

dude, you are completely out to lunch here...there is ample evidence here refuting your claim, and all you can say is, "you had to have watched the games"

 

well i did, as did many others here, and he wasn't near as bad as you claim he was....more importantly, after seeing his body of work later on, i think its suffice to say, RJ would have done a lot worse

 

Exactly! One edit: "Did" a lot worse.

[dave mcbride]

Flutie's lifetime rating while with the Bills was 81.7 and his sack rate was an extremely low 4.3 percent. In games he started, the team was 22-9. He averaged 28.5 rushing yards per game and 5.1 ypc.

 

He was a pretty good player.

 

There were examples given at the time about things he said to other players while Johnson was starting...not so much in the playoff game that I remember but back when he was Johnson's backup. At the time and now I have no way of knowing if they were true. I have also heard many other stories about his interactions with fans and self promotional tendencies....again without knowing if they are true. You'd really have to go back to the board from that time frame to see examples because I'm sure nobody is going to go looking on the web for you for Flutie stories or currency exchange rates. At least not from this board.

 

Personally I will say that I did not like the guy. I didn't really like Johnson too much either as a QB but as a person he was pretty quiet. Neither one of them was going to win us anything.

 

FWIW, back then I thought our best shot was to try to keep teams guessing as to which QB would play from week to week. It would have been hard to prep for both if they mixed it up from the start. Once teams figured out Flutie he was completely ineffective and any element of surprise was useless.

 

 

 

You seem like you like Sabre's metrics but I watched the games. Flutie sucked badly in 1999. There is no chance whatsoever we could have won the Titans game with him.

 

Re -read that. At any point in there did I say that Johnson was a better QB than Flutie?

 

I watched every one of the games, but I am a fan of a sabremetrics approach. In fact, my favorite game was the Ravens game. He played terribly against a defense that was far better than people knew, yet at the end of the game made a couple of truly amazing plays to pull it out. The point is that he would have bad games, but he would do things at the end of games that blew you away. He played well at the end of the year too. Incidentally they would have won the Giants game if Antowain Smith had converted a short 4th and 1 at the Giants 37 yard line late in the game. Flutie did in fact play poorly in that game, however.

Edited November 12, 2013 by dave mcbride

[dubs]

Flutie's lifetime rating while with the Bills was 81.7 and his sack rate was an extremely low 4.3 percent. In games he started, the team was 22-9. He averaged 28.5 rushing yards per game and 5.1 ypc.

 

He was a pretty good player.

 

I agree.

 

I can't say for certain Buffalo would have won that game if Flutie was in there (although I do believe they would have). What I feel pretty confident in saying though is that the controversy and distraction created by putting RJ in to start the final game and then the WC game was completely detrimental to the team and totally unnecessary. Teams just don't do that. Cohesion is an extremely important, intangible part of an NFL team. Disrupting that at the 11th hour really hurt.

[4merper4mer]

dude, you are completely out to lunch here...there is ample evidence here refuting your claim, and all you can say is, "you had to have watched the games"

 

well i did, as did many others here, and he wasn't near as bad as you claim he was....more importantly, after seeing his body of work later on, i think its suffice to say, RJ would have done a lot worse

 

If you think Flutie would have beaten the Titans you are sorely mistaken. It it makes you comfortable to believe that in an effort to make you feel better then go ahead.

 

The funny part about this is that so many people want to just hate Johnson for the sake of it. We were actually ahead and then the refs AND the Bills special teams botched the last play badly. If that didn't happen,this thread wouldn't be happening either.

 

The last five weeks of that season, excluding the almost meaningless game 16, we barely scraped by against some really crappy teams.

 

Lost to the 8-8 Jets

Beat the 8-8 Pats in a low scoring game at home

Lost at home to the 7-9 Giants

Barely hung on against the 6-10 Cardinals

Lost twice to the 8-8 Pats unless Vinatieri misses chip shots which he did.

 

And now we will go on the road and beat the Titans??????? Ok.

 

Flutie was taken out for the last game to rest his ridiculous arm. Johnson played well against the Colts and in all probability Ralph meddled because he saw some good passes from RJ that day....something he had not seen from Flutie for two months. Does that make it right? No. But it also doesn't mean Flutie would have beaten the Titans.

[enlightener]

I hated Flutie back then, and can't stand fans bringing up this stupid curse BS

why would you hate a winner? did you like the loser incarnate-slob Johnson and his magical headband? he single handedly lost us that game, regardless of is shoe-flopping antics against a prevent defense who had no reason to fear what that bone-head would do against them. He was a loser in so many ways, rivaled only by t Edwards. We deserve to lose for 13 years considering. Ronnie jones had a job the next year with the bills and Fluite didn't. Idiots consistently run this organization.

Edited November 12, 2013 by enlightener

[dubs]

If you think Flutie would have beaten the Titans you are sorely mistaken. It it makes you comfortable to believe that in an effort to make you feel better then go ahead.

 

The funny part about this is that so many people want to just hate Johnson for the sake of it. We were actually ahead and then the refs AND the Bills special teams botched the last play badly. If that didn't happen,this thread wouldn't be happening either.

 

The last five weeks of that season, excluding the almost meaningless game 16, we barely scraped by against some really crappy teams.

 

Lost to the 8-8 Jets

Beat the 8-8 Pats in a low scoring game at home

Lost at home to the 7-9 Giants

Barely hung on against the 6-10 Cardinals

Lost twice to the 8-8 Pats unless Vinatieri misses chip shots which he did.

 

And now we will go on the road and beat the Titans??????? Ok.

 

Flutie was taken out for the last game to rest his ridiculous arm. Johnson played well against the Colts and in all probability Ralph meddled because he saw some good passes from RJ that day....something he had not seen from Flutie for two months. Does that make it right? No. But it also doesn't mean Flutie would have beaten the Titans.

 

Maybe Buffalo wins, maybe they don't. No one knows.

 

Cherry picking games and turning wins into losses doesn't help your position. Basically what you are saying. Bills lost to NE (they actually won and Flutie finished the game 10-10). Bills beat Tennessee (actually, they lost).

 

The most important aspect that you fail to recognize is that changing QBs prior to the playoffs disrupted the team chemistry and cohesion. Not whether or not Flutie was better than RJ or vice versa. The team learned how to win with Flutie in there, as evidence of their 22-9 record with him at the helm the last 2 years.