thebandit27 Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 4 of the Bills 7 losses have been by 10+ points. Count me as one of the many. And not because of instant gratification, although instant gratification is nice! Sure we want to develop EJ and that's vitally important. Also important is for our guys to learn how to WIN. Losing breeds losing. If we lose out in hopes of developing EJ, we'll just reinforce on the rest of the team that we're really not trying to win and are in a fact a loser franchise. We should be trying to develop a whole winning team, not just one guy. I feel that the bold is cliche. To win, a team simply scores more points than their opponent. It's not like this team has quit on themselves or been outclassed most games. In fact, outside the debacle in Pittsburgh, they've looked every bit like they can compete with any team on their schedule. I agree that winning is the most important thing; absent that, developing your young QB is at the top of the list IMO.
reddogblitz Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 I feel that the bold is cliche. To win, a team simply scores more points than their opponent. It's not like this team has quit on themselves or been outclassed most games. In fact, outside the debacle in Pittsburgh, they've looked every bit like they can compete with any team on their schedule. I disagree. In the Chiefs, Jets, Bungles, and Clowns games you see a team that doesn't know how to win. We were there, right in it, winning, and then blew it. Learning how to NOT blow it and actually bring home a win is what the team needs to learn how to do. As far as the bolded part, if they can compete, how come they cant' win? That's what they need to learn how to do. Obviously it's not easy since we've been doing this exact same thing regularly for the last 13 years. I think we can do both, learn to win and develop EJ.
CodeMonkey Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 Sure we want to develop EJ and that's vitally important. Also important is for our guys to learn how to WIN. Losing breeds losing. If we lose out in hopes of developing EJ, we'll just reinforce on the rest of the team that we're really not trying to win and are in a fact a loser franchise. We should be trying to develop a whole winning team, not just one guy. Not much to disagree with here. And I sure wouldn't mind seeing the entire team get better week to week! But it's still the improvement that I will be looking for, not W's. Not that there is anything wrong with W's!
JohnC Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 (edited) * The fact that Barkley was chosen at the top of the fourth round indicates that San Jose Bills Fan was almost certainly correct about Barkley lacking the minimal level of arm strength to succeed as a starter. I consider Greg Cosell as one of the best draft analysts around. He considered Barkley to be a very low round caliber of player. He basically believed that Barkley's arm strength disqualified him from being a NFL starter. He felt that the best he could develop into was a backup qb with little prospect of being a franchise qb. His take on EJ Manuel was much more positive. He felt that he had intriguing physical abilities but that it was going to take some time for him to develop. My gentle recommendation to you is to be more patient and ride this horse a little longer. http://www.nfl.com/n...ves-cosell-says Edited November 14, 2013 by JohnC
Ozymandius Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 This upcoming Jets game is the biggest moment in EJ's life. Let's hope he comes through. Don't get swept by a QB drafted lower than you, EJ. Geno would legally be able to walk into your home and sleep your wife for the rest of your life. Seriously, it's law.
JohnC Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 (edited) John, I have to disagree. Are the Bills a great team? Of course not, but I believe they have more than enough talent on this roster to have made the playoffs this year if they had had good, not great, quarterbacking. How many teams in the league would have won this year with Jeff Teul, EJ, and Thad at QB? Look what has happened to GB since they lost Rogers. Look what has happened to Houston since Matt Schaub turned into a bad QB. What do you think the Pats' record would be with Teul, EJ or Thad behind center? Right from the start the Bills were going to play a rookie this year. That precluded us from being a serious playoff team this year and probably next year. I'm not criticizing that approach because I agreed with the organization's stance of developing your own drafted qb. In my view it is going to take more than a couple of years to get to the point that he can be effective enough to be a good franchise qb. Coming out of college his game was not mature enough (like Luck, RGIII or Russell Wilson) to propel this team beyond its average talent level. Your example of Rodgers is misplaced. He sat for three full years before he started. Drew Brees was not an instant success story. EJ should never be compared to a Peyton or Brady or be mentioned in the same sentence with those two historically good qbs. When this new regime took over ((Whaley/Marrone/Brandon) it was clear that they were working on a rebuild . It was going to take at least three years (my view) before this team would become a serious team. People are constantly using the hypothetical argument that if they had a Rodgers or Brees type qb this team would be an immediate playoff team. The problem with that scenario is that the hypothetical scenario is not the real life scenario. We are working with a rookie developmental qb who is going to take some time to become an accomplished qb, assuming that he can ever be that type of franchise qb. That is still a big question mark. Buddy Nix made a disasterous mistake when he bypassed Russell Wilson to draft TJ. Graham. It set this franchise back by years. The trajectory of this team would have been stunningly higher. Edited November 14, 2013 by JohnC
thebandit27 Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 I disagree. In the Chiefs, Jets, Bungles, and Clowns games you see a team that doesn't know how to win. We were there, right in it, winning, and then blew it. Learning how to NOT blow it and actually bring home a win is what the team needs to learn how to do. As far as the bolded part, if they can compete, how come they cant' win? That's what they need to learn how to do. Obviously it's not easy since we've been doing this exact same thing regularly for the last 13 years. I think we can do both, learn to win and develop EJ. My issue isn't with the concept that they need to win those close games--they do. What I'm saying is that the phrasing "Learn how to win" is cliche IMO. They lost to the Jets because they started slow and then couldn't cover anyone. They lost to the Browns & Chiefs because Jeff Tuel isn't an NFL QB. They hung with a Bengals team that's a better team than they are, but eventually lost because they couldn't move the ball in overtime and had special teams breakdowns. In my mind, these are issues with talent/depth and in-game execution. If you define getting better in those areas as part of "learning to win", then I agree. For me, that statement sounds more like coachspeak, whereas saying that the team needs more talent and depth in certain areas and needs to execute better out of the gate when they're on the road makes their issues sound like quantifiable/measurable improvement markers. I know it's semantics; I'm just saying that "learn how to win" is nebulous and has little meaning to me.
yungmack Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 This season, there have been moments where the defense stumbled, where special teams was anything but, and puzzling coaching decisions were made. But by and large, those three areas have been good enough for the Bills to have won about 7 games. The single overriding theme for the failures of the Bills this season is QB play. And a lot of that can be attributed to 4 key injuries: Kolb's 2 before the season, EJ's in training camp and most devastating for the team and the player, the knee injury in Cleveland. As some have pointed out, EJ was regarded as being raw, in need of training, but having a tremendous upside. I have no way of definitively proving this, but I believe the plan was to start Kolb and have EJ sit this season, or most of it, much like the Packers did with Rodgers. Well, that blew up in their faces and maybe it was always foolish to expect Kolb with his history of injuries to be the starter. In any case, it seems to me that a very imperfect EJ was forced into a situation he really wasn't ready for just yet. Yeah, he did okay but the flaws were there all along as has been amply dissected here and in the press. Could EJ turn out to be the "franchise QB" we all hoped? If this was last August, I would have been optimistic about his chances. Now, I'm not so sure. After the last injury and a month off, he appears to have massively regressed. Right now he looks lost out there. And this week could be even worse without Woods and Stevie and facing Ryan's defense. So, based on the promise of just a few weeks ago, I'm willing to withhold final judgment until the end of the season in hopes that he turns it around. As a Bills fan, it would be a wonderful thing if he did. But if he doesn't make a strong improvement, drafting a QB moves to the top of the off-season "To Do" list.
RealityCheck Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 My issue isn't with the concept that they need to win those close games--they do. What I'm saying is that the phrasing "Learn how to win" is cliche IMO. They lost to the Jets because they started slow and then couldn't cover anyone. They lost to the Browns & Chiefs because Jeff Tuel isn't an NFL QB. They hung with a Bengals team that's a better team than they are, but eventually lost because they couldn't move the ball in overtime and had special teams breakdowns. In my mind, these are issues with talent/depth and in-game execution. If you define getting better in those areas as part of "learning to win", then I agree. For me, that statement sounds more like coachspeak, whereas saying that the team needs more talent and depth in certain areas and needs to execute better out of the gate when they're on the road makes their issues sound like quantifiable/measurable improvement markers. I know it's semantics; I'm just saying that "learn how to win" is nebulous and has little meaning to me. Well said. All the cliches get away from talking about what is specifically going wrong for this team. Hopefully this Sunday goes well as I've barely managed to not jump head first off of my roof the previous 2 Sundays.
major Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 I believe in ej too. That being said j would still draft a qb in the first round every yer until you find one that sticks. I expect the bills to do this in the 1st round next year because we don't have anyone to compete with ej
Orton's Arm Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 (edited) I consider Greg Cosell as one of the best draft analysts around. He considered Barkley to be a very low round caliber of player. He basically believed that Barkley's arm strength disqualified him from being a NFL starter. He felt that the best he could develop into was a backup qb with little prospect of being a franchise qb. His take on EJ Manuel was much more positive. He felt that he had intriguing physical abilities but that it was going to take some time for him to develop. My gentle recommendation to you is to be more patient and ride this horse a little longer. http://www.nfl.com/n...ves-cosell-says I read your post, then listened to the Cosell interview. Cosell said two things which, taken together, are telling: 1) From the article: "Cosell labeled the USC passer [barkley] a fourth-round talent" 2) From 0:35 of the video: "I wouldn't put him [Manuel] past Barkley at this point." If Cosell regards Barkley as a fourth round talent, and isn't willing to rank Manuel ahead of Barkley, the implication is that he and I are on the same page in terms of regarding Manuel as a fourth round talent or lower. Cosell said some positive things about Manuel's physical talents. But he also criticized Manuel's downfield accuracy and mechanics; and said it would "take time" for him to contribute as a professional. Normally when I've heard that "take time" thing, it's meant that a QB hasn't proven himself as a pocket passer at the college level; and is extremely unlikely to ever prove himself as a pocket passer at the NFL level. > My gentle recommendation to you is to be more patient and ride this horse a little longer. I take no joy in false hope. At this point, there's no objective reason to believe Manuel will be any different than any other first round QB bust. That's not a guarantee he will be a bust. But my level of hope in him is based on where he should have been taken (fourth round or later), not where he was taken. Edited November 15, 2013 by Edwards' Arm
Dibs Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 This whole discussion is about cherry picking. If someone wants to declare EJ a bust, all they have to do is point to the Jets and Steelers games and call it case-closed. If someone wants to declare that EJ can make the plays needed to be an NFL QB, all they have to do is point to a handful of plays like the Chandler throw that set up the Woods TD vs. NE, the Stevie TD vs. NE, and the final drive against Carolina and their point is readily made. If you ask me (and nobody did), both sides would be over-stating their argument. It's been 6 games (5-1/2 really), concluding anything from that sample size is simply poor evaluation skill. Meh....who asked you thebandit27? (I agree with your post btw.)
Boatdrinks Posted November 15, 2013 Posted November 15, 2013 Can we stop pretending the ultimate decision as to whether EJ can be the guy will be based on 6 games? By my count he's got 6 games to go. And while 12 games is not an ideal sample, it's far from meaningless. In the meantime we're all waiting hopefully - some are just more optimistic than others. And even that "meaningful sample size" will likely not be enough either way for an NFL team to cast aside a #1 pick. The decision won't be made until after 2014.
Ozymandius Posted November 15, 2013 Posted November 15, 2013 hello, please reply to this post if you can read this. thanks.
maddenboy Posted November 15, 2013 Posted November 15, 2013 (edited) hello, please reply to this post if you can read this. thanks. done Edited November 15, 2013 by maddenboy
Ozymandius Posted November 15, 2013 Posted November 15, 2013 done thanks bro. so i'm not invisible but i need to do a better job of trolling by being less awkward i think? alright, it's doable
papazoid Posted November 15, 2013 Posted November 15, 2013 E J Manuel is the #1 ranked most "clutch" QB in the league. so says an article in the latest edition of ESPN the Magazine. titled "Measuring the Immeasurable" who's clutch? without re-typing the whole thing, it starts out by saying "you know how some scoring drives matter, while others are garbage time". with emphasis on QB's who are leading scoring drives when games are close, late in game or both. guys ranked poorly produce points when it matters less, they're not clutch. example tony romo. (while interesting, i'm still drafting another QB in the first or second round in upcoming draft).
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 15, 2013 Posted November 15, 2013 Our 22 year old rookie who just missed a month struggled against a coach who is 19-2 against rookie QBs??? CUT HIM NOW!!! I have no idea if Manuel is the answer but some of you are laughable. You would have ran Jim Kelly out of town as a rookie. What ever happen to patience and allowing a player to develop?
YoloinOhio Posted November 17, 2013 Posted November 17, 2013 Our 22 year old rookie who just missed a month struggled against a coach who is 19-2 against rookie QBs??? CUT HIM NOW!!! I have no idea if Manuel is the answer but some of you are laughable. You would have ran Jim Kelly out of town as a rookie. What ever happen to patience and allowing a player to develop? I think it is a bad mix of the fan base running out of any patience that was left after 13 years + EJ being somewhat of a project (perhaps a worthwhile one) as an NFL QB. The Bills feel he is the real deal. Since I don't work as a GM or college talent evaluator for the NFL, I will assume they feel they can develop him into a franchise QB. The book on EJ is unique. I have liked what I have seen from him in many ways - it s hard for me to read the really one-sided bashing posts that say he will never amount to anything. No one knows that, so let's see what happens. I do think fans who are banking on the Bills taking another QB high in the the draft this year if EJ still doesn't look good by the end of the season are going to be disappointed. They will give him at least one more year. They may sign another veteran QB if a decent one becomes available. That's about all I can see on that front. They are committed to developing him within this system, and they should be. They (he, Marrone, Hackett) all came in together and they are invested in this working.
Boatdrinks Posted November 17, 2013 Posted November 17, 2013 Our 22 year old rookie who just missed a month struggled against a coach who is 19-2 against rookie QBs??? CUT HIM NOW!!! I have no idea if Manuel is the answer but some of you are laughable. You would have ran Jim Kelly out of town as a rookie. What ever happen to patience and allowing a player to develop? And lets not forget that JK got to play two seasons in the USFL before ever getting an NFL start in front of the Bills fans. While he was excellent there, it was widely considered an inferior league as a whole. Taking absolutely nothing away from his HOF career, just pointing out it was valuable playing time for his development. Not saying by any stretch that EJM will be another Kelly some day, but the jury is still out on Manuel. In fact, we're still in opening statements, really.
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