Orton's Arm Posted November 12, 2013 Posted November 12, 2013 From a pure scouts perspective, it's more important to note the things you DON'T see. I'll leave it at that. But I can GUARANTEE that TD didn't "see" the same things the scouts saw when it came to JP Losman. He ignored that information at his own peril. Buddy Nix NEVER saw a franchise QB in Fitz and never pretended that he did. And I doubt you'd find a more humble person than Buddy Nix when it comes to assessing college talent. He's admitted to screwing the pooch on numerous occasions, as has every scout I've ever met as well. I'm sorry, it IS ridiculous to keep harping on the "long ball" issue. EJ Manuel has demonstrated he can throw the long ball. He has struggled with one particular route. I've already explained why I think that is. I've also said on numerous occasions that the world is littered with QBs who can throw the ball a country mile. Or as I like to put it, there's a difference between being a passer and a quarterback. But thanks for reminding me with the Sanchez example. It is clear that Manuel has made the conscious decision to NOT challenge certain coverages as often when he sees them. To not take the green light he has at his disposal. That is at the heart of my concern for him, his confidence and patience. But I've seen enough of his looking off safeties and indeed, setting them up with previous plays, to know he has the recognition aspect of the game in hand more often than not. For whatever reason, he didn't trust himself on Sunday. There may be many reasons for this. Not the least of which are returning to live action after an extended layoff and facing a Hall of Fame DC that eats rookies for lunch. Whatever the reasons, it was the first time I had real concerns about his performance. But confidence is a fickle thing. Especially with QBs. If that continues to be an issue, it won't matter what other attributes he brings to the table. He has an opportunity next Sunday. I'm not interested in anything other than how he responds going forward. With that, I've discussed this enough. If you and others insist that 6 games is enough to convince yourselves he doesn't have what it takes, so be it. I don't share that opinion. GO BILLS!!! > From a pure scouts perspective, it's more important to note the things you DON'T see. Agreed. Which is why I became concerned after watching Manuel's college highlight video. Almost none of the highlights involved him throwing to anything other than a wide-open receiver. None of the highlights involved him going to his third or fourth read. To be honest, I didn't see that many cases of him going to his second read. > Buddy Nix NEVER saw a franchise QB in Fitz and never pretended that he did. Fair enough. But the extension he gave Fitz to sign implied that he saw Fitz as a medium-term solution. I agree with you that Buddy was humble. But that humility may not always have protected him from wishful thinking; as the Fitz contract extension demonstrates. One of the reasons for having humility is to spur oneself to greater intellectual rigor. Buddy was humble, but may not always have been spurred. > I'm sorry, it IS ridiculous to keep harping on the "long ball" issue. Why? While Manuel has plenty of arm strength for the long ball, he hasn't shown he can throw the long ball with consistent accuracy. I don't think that issue alone will kill his career--he'll be a bust due to a combination of reasons--but the long ball issue can't be ignored either. > If you and others insist that 6 games is enough to convince yourselves he doesn't have what it takes, so be it. I do not feel his college accomplishments warranted his selection in the third round; let alone the first round. Now that the Bills have used (squandered?) a first round pick on him, they should use the next six games to evaluate him. Then they should take a QB in the first round of the 2014 draft, assuming there's one worth taking. They should sit that QB his entire rookie year, with Manuel the starter for 2014. There's a chance this will result in a Drew Brees/Philip Rivers situation; with two deserving QBs and only one starting position. But that chance is miniscule. Odds are that at least one of the QBs (Manuel) will fail; and they might both fail.
Bill from NYC Posted November 13, 2013 Author Posted November 13, 2013 Gilmore was picked on a little today but that doesn't change the way I feel about the pick. Last week you were singing the praises of Aaron Williams and look how long it took him to develop. He was the consensus best player in camp all summer and was primed for a breakout season and the injury has undoubtedly set him back. But yes, he has struggled a little bit the last two weeks. Dude I will give Bill in NYC the Gimore thing today (although I didn't mention that earlier this year he was bashing Dareus), but are you really trying to resurrect the Goodwin vs. Graham argument?? Come on man, let it go already. Graham is going to get cut next season and Goodwin is an incredibly promising rookie. Where are the WR screens to get him the ball in space? I should have responded sooner to this moronic post. First of all, read the title. These are "thoughts," not proclamations of all knowing truth with which I demand full accord. You are not "giving" me anything if you suddenly agree that Gilmore isn't playing well. Please, take me to task if you disagree. As for me not being crazy about the play of Dareus in a game, you make it sound like a mortal sin. Should I be worried? Look, I am a fan of the National Champion currently undefeated Crimson Tide and have watched Dareus for years. Marcel is playing well much of the time this season, but having seen him in college I expected more. I also expect more from a #3 selection of an NFL draft. The sloppy mess that Bills Fans recognize as the QB position is not helping a big man such as Dareus and I do recognize that being on the field all day can hinder his game. Who knows, maybe Gilmore (a 10th selection) would even play a little better too by being on the field a shorter amount of time but of this I am less sure. In any event, if my opinions and simple observations morally wound you in some way, I guess I am sorry. I'm not sure, but I will know by Sunday.
Orton's Arm Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 I should have responded sooner to this moronic post. First of all, read the title. These are "thoughts," not proclamations of all knowing truth with which I demand full accord. You are not "giving" me anything if you suddenly agree that Gilmore isn't playing well. Please, take me to task if you disagree. As for me not being crazy about the play of Dareus in a game, you make it sound like a mortal sin. Should I be worried? Look, I am a fan of the National Champion currently undefeated Crimson Tide and have watched Dareus for years. Marcel is playing well much of the time this season, but having seen him in college I expected more. I also expect more from a #3 selection of an NFL draft. The sloppy mess that Bills Fans recognize as the QB position is not helping a big man such as Dareus and I do recognize that being on the field all day can hinder his game. Who knows, maybe Gilmore (a 10th selection) would even play a little better too by being on the field a shorter amount of time but of this I am less sure. In any event, if my opinions and simple observations morally wound you in some way, I guess I am sorry. I'm not sure, but I will know by Sunday. I agree that, if you look at Dareus's overall body of work to this point in his career, you're not seeing what you'd expect to see from the third overall pick. He's had his struggles this year also; so it's not like all of this can be explained away by his brother's death. What's frustrating is that we could have used the Dareus pick on A.J. Green. I know you're not normally a fan of using first round picks on little guys, but Green is a special player. If he continues playing at the level we've seen from him thus far, he will be inducted into the Hall of Fame.
dave mcbride Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 (edited) Dareus is a very good player who is also a playmaker. He's on track for 8 sacks, which is great for a DT. He has played vey well this year overall. http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/13992/marcell-dareus Edited November 14, 2013 by dave mcbride
mannc Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 (edited) I agree that, if you look at Dareus's overall body of work to this point in his career, you're not seeing what you'd expect to see from the third overall pick. He's had his struggles this year also; so it's not like all of this can be explained away by his brother's death. What's frustrating is that we could have used the Dareus pick on A.J. Green. I know you're not normally a fan of using first round picks on little guys, but Green is a special player. If he continues playing at the level we've seen from him thus far, he will be inducted into the Hall of Fame. I believe that big, dynamic, game breaking wide receivers like Green who have to be accounted for on every play are the second most valuable commodity in the modern game. There are not very many of them and they don't stay on the board very long in the draft. I would say there is an average of about one available every other year, if that. I think Buddy's greatest sin was failing to realize this and using such a premium pick on an interior defensive lineman rather than just the fact that he selected a player who has been outshone by several other defensive linemen chosen after him. Even if Dareus had performed up to all expectations, he would never have had the impact of an AJ Green, Julio Jones, Andre Johnson, or Megatron. While a franchise QB can make almost every player on the team look better, a stud WR like Green or Megatron can make an ordinary QB like Dalton or Stafford look far better than they really are. Edited November 14, 2013 by mannc
YoloinOhio Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 (edited) I believe that big, dynamic, game breaking wide receivers like Green who have to be accounted for on every play are the second most valuable commodity in the modern game. There are not very many of them and they don't stay on the board very long in the draft. I would say there is an average of about one available every other year, if that. I think Buddy's greatest sin was failing to realize this and using such a premium pick on an interior defensive lineman rather than just the fact that he selected a player who has been outshone by several other defensive linemen chosen after him. Even if Dareus had performed up to all expectations, he would never have had the impact of an AJ Green, Julio Jones, Andre Johnson, or Megatron. While a franchise QB can make almost every player on the team look better, a stud WR like Green or Megatron can make an ordinary QB like Dalton or Stafford look far better than they really are. I completely agree. I hope we get one this year, it is a huge need. However, until recently I think it was looked at as risky to take a WR that high - guys like David Boston and Charles Rogers were busts and Detriot was made fun of for years for always taking WRs #1. Now we see how much of an impact they can have if you get the right one. Dez Bryant and Justin Blackmon are examples of both - huge talent with character issues before the draft that are still surfacing. I really want the Bills to get a guy like this (i.e. Mike Evans from A&M) for EJ, it would help him tremendously. Or just sign Larry Fitzgerald when he becomes a FA. lol. Edited November 14, 2013 by YoloInTheBlo
RuntheDamnBall Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 I believe that big, dynamic, game breaking wide receivers like Green who have to be accounted for on every play are the second most valuable commodity in the modern game. There are not very many of them and they don't stay on the board very long in the draft. I would say there is an average of about one available every other year, if that. I think Buddy's greatest sin was failing to realize this and using such a premium pick on an interior defensive lineman rather than just the fact that he selected a player who has been outshone by several other defensive linemen chosen after him. Even if Dareus had performed up to all expectations, he would never have had the impact of an AJ Green, Julio Jones, Andre Johnson, or Megatron. While a franchise QB can make almost every player on the team look better, a stud WR like Green or Megatron can make an ordinary QB like Dalton or Stafford look far better than they really are. 2B would be your Jimmy Graham type monster TEs. If you don't have 2A, 2B and a few good secondary weapons will do nicely.
Dibs Posted November 14, 2013 Posted November 14, 2013 Dareus is a very good player who is also a playmaker. He's on track for 8 sacks, which is great for a DT. He has played vey well this year overall. http://espn.go.com/n.../marcell-dareus I think I should point out that in post #1 of this thread, Bill wrote "Dareus and Branch both looked very good too." It was indeed odd for him to be called out for having noted some weeks ago that Dareus had a bad game.
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