Aaron Williams

[simpleman]

 

Agreed. But this concept also highlights the point that calling a young player a bust(and wasted draft pick) after only a year or two in the league is premature.

It is interesting that everyone talks about giving someone two or three years to develop.

Maybe 20 years ago in the NFL, but this is not 20 years ago. This is today, and the world has changed. We expect performance, now.

The Bills have been a poor team for so many years because the team has failed to keep modern and stay up with the competition. The competition that is winning does not wait, they expect production now, and they win now.

The Bills are patient and they are perennial losers, always saying be patient, we have a three year plan. Three year plans mean three more years of mediocrity until the next three year plan, which simply repeats the whole sorry cycle.

Unless a player is that obvious one or two sure thing a year, either they produce within the first season, or you release them and move on. There are always plenty of other players out there with the potential to be average or mediocre. The Bills are the case study of how being overly patient relates to a winning record.

Yes I am happy for AW and glad he is finally succeeding, but the team that has too many “projects” and not enough “players” is doomed to failure. On a 53 man roster that is only one or two players as “projects” a year. You don’t have room for “projects” that drag your team down that are not potential superstars. That describes the Bills over the past decade, too many “projects” that were at best just potential “average” players. Unless that balance between “projects” and “players” improves, nothing will change.

[Fixxxer]

Yes, I know Gronk was picked the prior year. I started to address the consecutive reaches in round 2 and had to step away before I could proofread it. I am about 10,000 posts short of some of the apologist posters here in great part because I have other things to do. Perhaps that is also why I haven't felt the need to pretend the Bills haven't sucked for the past 13 years. Life, get one.

 

If the question is was he a first round talent the answer is a definitive no. In the NFL today, you can't use a first round pick on a safety who takes 3 years to develop. For that matter, if you have needs like the Bills had you shouldn't use a second round pick on that player either. And yet, they did just that. Let me put it this way, if the Bills took an offensive guard at the top of round 2 and he couldn't earn a spot on a bad offensive line for his first two years......would you be lauding that selection when he earned a starting job in year 3? If you would then you deserve every loss this team has dealt you.

 

People forget that Williams was not even a full time starter at Texas, he was a raw talent. It was a reach. Chan Gailey sank his own ship with his choices of DC......but reaching for a DT and CB in round 2......and coming away with NEITHER in the first two drafts of his era did him no favors.

 

I mean let's see, the team plays a 3-4, has Kyle Williams and Dwan Edwards under contract and drafts Torrel Troupe high in the second round expecting him to be the NT anchor of that line......gets nothing from Troupe......and then feels compelled to select Marcel Dareus at the top of the following draft. Hmmm. The following year, they reach for Williams at the top of round 2........get nothing from him......and are compelled to take Gilmore with their very early first round draft pick. Interesting.

 

You can't illustrate the damage of a pointless reach anymore concisely than that Bills fans.

 

I pointed out a mistake you made and you get up in arms, you shouldn't take things so seriously, you'll pop a vein and that life that you apparently already have secure will go away in a hurry.

 

One thing is pre-draft considerations and another thing is playing in the NFL. You can deny it, but the fact is, pundits deemed A.W. a first round talent, you say otherwise and maybe you're right but unfortunately you're the last cog of the NFL business.

In the internet written word (again by pundits) A.W. could have been selected in the first round and it would have been accepted.

 

I can and will do whatever the !@#$ I want regarding Bills player selections, one thing I will not do, get on my high horse and start undermining other people's opinions because they don't share mine.

[BADOLBILZ]

I pointed out a mistake you made and you get up in arms, you shouldn't take things so seriously, you'll pop a vein and that life that you apparently already have secure will go away in a hurry.

 

One thing is pre-draft considerations and another thing is playing in the NFL. You can deny it, but the fact is, pundits deemed A.W. a first round talent, you say otherwise and maybe you're right but unfortunately you're the last cog of the NFL business.

In the internet written word (again by pundits) A.W. could have been selected in the first round and it would have been accepted.

 

I can and will do whatever the !@#$ I want regarding Bills player selections, one thing I will not do, get on my high horse and start undermining other people's opinions because they don't share mine.

 

I'm not up in arms about a message board post, but you will just have to trust me on that. I was simply making a point and doing so to several people simultaneously in the response to you......because I know they are reading it.

 

I am here for constructive, objective discussion of Bills football. Here's the problem: Bills football has been LOUSY for 13 years and counting. Therefore, the objective part is realizing they stink and the constructive part is understanding why.

 

I will give you an example: when you know Dick Jauron is a bad head coach are you agonized at the end of a night game against Dallas where he manages to blow a 2 score lead in the closing minute? The correct answer is no. He is what he is.....a coach who had 7 losing seasons in 8 tries in the NFL.

 

Interestingly and perhaps ironically, I think it is PTR who has in his sig line that the world is a tragedy to those who feel and a comedy to those that think. Truer words were never spoken. There are two acceptable states of being a Bills fan, being realistic or just ignoring the negative and hoping for the best. Being a fan hater is utterly unjustifiable.

Edited November 9, 2013 by BADOLBEELZ

[BADOLBILZ]

Country music is like whining nails on a chalkboard to me, to each their own. Aaron Williams has become a much better all around player, playing his natural safety position in a defense that suits his style of play. He was a better safety at Texas than he was a corner. Why he wasn't playing safety from the jump will forever be the question

 

He wasn't playing safety from the start because safety was in no way a need for the team.

 

Jairus Byrd was one of the best free safeties in the NFL and he and George Wilson made a fine tandem in George Edwards otherwise mostly craptacular defense.

 

It was one of the few strong spots on the team.

 

The only way one could say that safety was a need would be to imply that they needed to select him to replace Whitner.

 

He was drafted to play corner. It was a bad decision.

 

I will say this in defense of Nix and his top scout Whaley.....I think that the less holes you have on your team the easier it gets to make good draft day decisions. At the time they tabbed Williams they had a lot of needs. We have seen the Bills make head scratching decisions on draft day for most of the past decade, but the past couple seasons they have really followed a more linear approach on draft day. Picks like Cordy Glenn and EJ Manuel were the kind of make-sense picks the team wasn't making in Nix first two drafts.

[SmokinES3]

 

 

I'm not up in arms about a message board post, but you will just have to trust me on that. I was simply making a point and doing so to several people simultaneously in the response to you......because I know they are reading it.

 

I am here for constructive, objective discussion of Bills football. Here's the problem: Bills football has been LOUSY for 13 years and counting. Therefore, the objective part is realizing they stink and the constructive part is understanding why.

 

I will give you an example: when you know Dick Jauron is a bad head coach are you agonized at the end of a night game against Dallas where he manages to blow a 2 score lead in the closing minute? The correct answer is no. He is what he is.....a coach who had 7 losing seasons in 8 tries in the NFL.

 

Interestingly and perhaps ironically, I think it is PTR who has in his sig line that the world is a tragedy to those who feel and a comedy to those that think. Truer words were never spoken. There are two acceptable states of being a Bills fan, being realistic or just ignoring the negative and hoping for the best. Being a fan hater is utterly unjustifiable.

 

Great perspective. Good to see some share a sense of reality... I've lurked here for about 6 or 7 years. Just joined last week. I love the quick updates, intellectual discussion, and inside info this board is known for. Compared to many NFL message boards I've perused, its a haven for those with an IQ.

 

Now that being said, a lot of apologists for sure.

Does being negative and espousing the less than competitive aspects of this organization constantly add to the discussion? Of course not. Not unless the breakdown can help us to understand what needs to be fixed as BADOL intimated.

 

At the same time, does pretending we are viewed as anything resembling a serious franchise anywhere outside of WNY help either? We aren't even a blip on the radar. The bumbling Bills are almost a running joke. Until the win column consistently illustrates otherwise, I for one will act accordingly.

 

I dont go to games and I dont buy merchandise anymore (5$ hats at TJ Maxx not withstanding). For some reason I seem hooked on the emotional abuse Sundays provide, in hopes of improvement, but I won't financially back long term mediocrity (probably generous terminology) beyond watching on TV. Sorry to get excited and off topic... My rant isn't exactly breaking news to anyone im sure.

[3rdand12]

A Williams has been redeveloped resurrected salvaged recovering absolved christened rewarded engaged and now succeeding and exceding even.

 

I was a full blown hater on Aaron based solely upon his play pre this season.

Now i see the light in the boy. hittin em in the #s and takin' names. Love his attitude. Pay to play against him

 

Thanks Coach Mike... for all you have done for these kids that play Buffalo Bills football.

 

Great perspective. Good to see some share a sense of reality... I've lurked here for about 6 or 7 years. Just joined last week. I love the quick updates, intellectual discussion, and inside info this board is known for. Compared to many NFL message boards I've perused, its a haven for those with an IQ.

 

Now that being said, a lot of apologists for sure.

Does being negative and espousing the less than competitive aspects of this organization constantly add to the discussion? Of course not. Not unless the breakdown can help us to understand what needs to be fixed as BADOL intimated.

 

At the same time, does pretending we are viewed as anything resembling a serious franchise anywhere outside of WNY help either? We aren't even a blip on the radar. The bumbling Bills are almost a running joke. Until the win column consistently illustrates otherwise, I for one will act accordingly.

 

I dont go to games and I dont buy merchandise anymore (5$ hats at TJ Maxx not withstanding). For some reason I seem hooked on the emotional abuse Sundays provide, in hopes of improvement, but I won't financially back long term mediocrity (probably generous terminology) beyond watching on TV. Sorry to get excited and off topic... My rant isn't exactly breaking news to anyone im sure.

welcome to the family .

[Dibs]

It is interesting that everyone talks about giving someone two or three years to develop.

Maybe 20 years ago in the NFL, but this is not 20 years ago. This is today, and the world has changed. We expect performance, now.

The Bills have been a poor team for so many years because the team has failed to keep modern and stay up with the competition. The competition that is winning does not wait, they expect production now, and they win now.

The Bills are patient and they are perennial losers, always saying be patient, we have a three year plan. Three year plans mean three more years of mediocrity until the next three year plan, which simply repeats the whole sorry cycle.

Unless a player is that obvious one or two sure thing a year, either they produce within the first season, or you release them and move on. There are always plenty of other players out there with the potential to be average or mediocre. The Bills are the case study of how being overly patient relates to a winning record.

Yes I am happy for AW and glad he is finally succeeding, but the team that has too many “projects” and not enough “players” is doomed to failure. On a 53 man roster that is only one or two players as “projects” a year. You don’t have room for “projects” that drag your team down that are not potential superstars. That describes the Bills over the past decade, too many “projects” that were at best just potential “average” players. Unless that balance between “projects” and “players” improves, nothing will change.

 

You really advocate that teams release their players that don't produce withing the first season? As a standard rule?

 

Does that include the extremely cheap later draft picks and UDFAs, or just the higher(yet still cheap) draft picks that they previously assessed one year prior to have the best potential to become decent/good/great players in the NFL?

[BADOLBILZ]

Great perspective. Good to see some share a sense of reality... I've lurked here for about 6 or 7 years. Just joined last week. I love the quick updates, intellectual discussion, and inside info this board is known for. Compared to many NFL message boards I've perused, its a haven for those with an IQ.

 

Now that being said, a lot of apologists for sure.

Does being negative and espousing the less than competitive aspects of this organization constantly add to the discussion? Of course not. Not unless the breakdown can help us to understand what needs to be fixed as BADOL intimated.

 

At the same time, does pretending we are viewed as anything resembling a serious franchise anywhere outside of WNY help either? We aren't even a blip on the radar. The bumbling Bills are almost a running joke. Until the win column consistently illustrates otherwise, I for one will act accordingly.

 

I dont go to games and I dont buy merchandise anymore (5$ hats at TJ Maxx not withstanding). For some reason I seem hooked on the emotional abuse Sundays provide, in hopes of improvement, but I won't financially back long term mediocrity (probably generous terminology) beyond watching on TV. Sorry to get excited and off topic... My rant isn't exactly breaking news to anyone im sure.

 

I think there should be some incentive for an organization to win. I don't think the Bills struggles of the past 13 years and their unprecendented popularity in the region for most of that period are completely unrelated. When you are an organization that traditionally only sells out when it is winning and you are selling out games regularly when you are 5, 6, 7 years removed from the playoffs, the fanbase is sending a message to the team that it's OK to lose. I am not saying the Bills don't want to win, I am certain they do, but the pressure to do so is not the same as it is in a city like NY or Philadelphia. I think the result has been a lack of urgency. And that is really all it takes to perpetuate a culture of losing. In the end, narrow defeats and moral victories are just losses and they are followed by regime changes.....not necessitated by the fans but necessitated by the players giving up on the coaches and the subsequent dimishing returns........and then it is rinse and repeat.

[SmokinES3]

 

 

I think there should be some incentive for an organization to win. I don't think the Bills struggles of the past 13 years and their unprecendented popularity in the region for most of that period are completely unrelated. When you are an organization that traditionally only sells out when it is winning and you are selling out games regularly when you are 5, 6, 7 years removed from the playoffs, the fanbase is sending a message to the team that it's OK to lose. I am not saying the Bills don't want to win, I am certain they do, but the pressure to do so is not the same as it is in a city like NY or Philadelphia. I think the result has been a lack of urgency. And that is really all it takes to perpetuate a culture of losing. In the end, narrow defeats and moral victories are just losses and they are followed by regime changes.....not necessitated by the fans but necessitated by the players giving up on the coaches and the subsequent dimishing returns........and then it is rinse and repeat.

 

You put that much more succinctly than myself, right on. If the profit still rolls in at an acceptable rate, why invest more money. The way I see it, hitting them where it hurts is the only way to spur change.

 

I'm sure this is a taboo subject, but there is always just enough "moving" talk to keep the fanbase on its toes. Now...6+ seasons in the safe zone is the time if there ever was one...

[Buftex]

I hate to say it, but the overreaction by some here, to bad play by young players, is pretty depressing. Especially DB's. You could make a strong argument, especiall with the rules the way they are stacked against defense, that CB is pretty close to QB as the toughest position to play in the NFL. The history of the NFL is littered with stories of DB's who struggle their first couple of seasons, before they "get it". There are very few guys who don't struggle to some degree early on. Compund that with the fact that Williams was playing corner on a defense that which had almost no pass-rush, and it only made it worse. People here are depressingly impatient. Anyone remember how horrible Derrick Burroughs was when he came in the NFL? He turned into a great corner...Charles Woodson? George Teauge?

 

Williams is a terrific kid, was a terrific ball player at Texas... if he rubbed some the wrong way as being arrogant, imagine being a 20 year old kid, on top of the world, playing for your dream team in Austin, one minute, and then going across the country to play in Buffalo, on a miserable team (with an increasingly miserable fan base) and being told that you suck week in week out...all the while, being introduced to your new NFL duties by some of the worst defensive coaching we have seen in some time...in Buffalo that is saying something.

 

I understand where the impatience comes from...I just pray that this team truly turns the corner, so we can return to our status of being "good fans" who understand that things take time... fans that don't take out their frustrations with the franchises' endless woes, on young kids who have nothing to do with any of that....let them breath, let them learn, watch them thrive.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

:thumbsup:

[Bill from NYC]

 

 

Great perspective. Good to see some share a sense of reality... I've lurked here for about 6 or 7 years. Just joined last week. I love the quick updates, intellectual discussion, and inside info this board is known for. Compared to many NFL message boards I've perused, its a haven for those with an IQ.

 

Now that being said, a lot of apologists for sure.

Does being negative and espousing the less than competitive aspects of this organization constantly add to the discussion? Of course not. Not unless the breakdown can help us to understand what needs to be fixed as BADOL intimated.

 

At the same time, does pretending we are viewed as anything resembling a serious franchise anywhere outside of WNY help either? We aren't even a blip on the radar. The bumbling Bills are almost a running joke. Until the win column consistently illustrates otherwise, I for one will act accordingly.

 

I dont go to games and I dont buy merchandise anymore (5$ hats at TJ Maxx not withstanding). For some reason I seem hooked on the emotional abuse Sundays provide, in hopes of improvement, but I won't financially back long term mediocrity (probably generous terminology) beyond watching on TV. Sorry to get excited and off topic... My rant isn't exactly breaking news to anyone im sure.

 

Welcome to TBD!

[mead107]

 

 

Great perspective. Good to see some share a sense of reality... I've lurked here for about 6 or 7 years. Just joined last week. I love the quick updates, intellectual discussion, and inside info this board is known for. Compared to many NFL message boards I've perused, its a haven for those with an IQ.

 

Now that being said, a lot of apologists for sure.

Does being negative and espousing the less than competitive aspects of this organization constantly add to the discussion? Of course not. Not unless the breakdown can help us to understand what needs to be fixed as BADOL intimated.

 

At the same time, does pretending we are viewed as anything resembling a serious franchise anywhere outside of WNY help either? We aren't even a blip on the radar. The bumbling Bills are almost a running joke. Until the win column consistently illustrates otherwise, I for one will act accordingly.

 

I dont go to games and I dont buy merchandise anymore (5$ hats at TJ Maxx not withstanding). For some reason I seem hooked on the emotional abuse Sundays provide, in hopes of improvement, but I won't financially back long term mediocrity (probably generous terminology) beyond watching on TV. Sorry to get excited and off topic... My rant isn't exactly breaking news to anyone im sure.

I buy BILLS merchandise because I love my team. I am proud to put on my BILLS clothing all the time.

[simpleman]

You really advocate that teams release their players that don't produce withing the first season? As a standard rule?

 

Does that include the extremely cheap later draft picks and UDFAs, or just the higher(yet still cheap) draft picks that they previously assessed one year prior to have the best potential to become decent/good/great players in the NFL?

 

It is not just about where they were drafted or the cost of the contract. You also fail to factor in the limiting effects of the cap and of the limiting size of the 53 man roster. They also are the costs of keeping developmental player. Every player who is not contributing today is potentially costing you a player who could be contributing today. How many games do you potentially loose this year because you don't have the proper personal to win today, based on the hope and promise that you might just win a game next year? It becomes about the value of the bird in hand ( an average role player who WILL contribute to a win today) vs what might be in the bush (a "developmental" player who is not really contributing enough now, but MIGHT contribute someday in the future).

 

I'm not saying it is a fixed rule, but I am saying you should have only very few non or minimally contributing players in "development" in any given year unless they are sure thing prospects to be the next great player, not just an average player.

 

Every year there are plenty of average players who become free agents, they are the proverbial dime a dozen players. Let some other team develop those average players and grab them. The Lawsons, the Branches, average players who contribute,who you need to win, but will never be superstars.

 

Develop your superstars, let someone else waste their resources developing your future role players like Lawson and Branch.

 

It really is about philosophy. It is about how you feel about gambling. I believe in betting only on the near sure things. Not on the long shot high risk, high rewards. I will take the accumulating smaller incremental rewards. Others like the risk and excitement of the hitting the jackpot, no matter how low the odds are. I may not win big, but I win. When it comes to jackpots, there are a whole lot more losers than winners.

 

Do you really think a player like a TJ will ever become anything more than an average contributing player? If he ever actually develops, he most likely will become one of those dime a dozen players in FA. If you can get someone like him immediately in FA, why waste the valuable roster space and cap space waiting for him to become that average player? I like what AW has done, but do I see him becoming a pro bowler? No. I see him becoming a steady average role player who gets the job done. Do I think we could get a similar player in FA.? Yes, and without wasting the time, money and space waiting for him to become that steady, average role player.

 

Raw potential without performance or true flashes of greatness and Five dollars might get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

Edited November 10, 2013 by simpleman

[RCOHEN13]

We have a great duo out there now at safety position. For all the ppl who are still pissed at Byrd (i'm among them) he's been a big difference back there. Leonard may have had a few INT's but was a liability vs. run and was rarely on time on deep balls and was not great when he was in coverage. With Byrd back there, Searcy can be a 3rd safety that still sees decent ammount of playing time and is great in that role and become great on blitz with a few sacks and some pressure.

 

 

with Gilmore starting to get back in form, this secondary is not a weakness anymore with Mcluvin as CB2 and Roby who has been great as nickel corner.

 

If Byrd leaves, that leaves us with a huge hole again at FS. Hopefully Duke is learning this yr and can step in next yr as starter but outside of Ha Ha Clinton-Dix (who is a top 8-15 pick which me will probably land) there is no outher Safety thats worth even a 2nd or 3rd rounder.

[K-9]

We have a great duo out there now at safety position. For all the ppl who are still pissed at Byrd (i'm among them) he's been a big difference back there. Leonard may have had a few INT's but was a liability vs. run and was rarely on time on deep balls and was not great when he was in coverage. With Byrd back there, Searcy can be a 3rd safety that still sees decent ammount of playing time and is great in that role and become great on blitz with a few sacks and some pressure.

 

 

with Gilmore starting to get back in form, this secondary is not a weakness anymore with Mcluvin as CB2 and Roby who has been great as nickel corner.

 

If Byrd leaves, that leaves us with a huge hole again at FS. Hopefully Duke is learning this yr and can step in next yr as starter but outside of Ha Ha Clinton-Dix (who is a top 8-15 pick which me will probably land) there is no outher Safety thats worth even a 2nd or 3rd rounder.

 

I'm glad Byrd is back in the lineup, but I'm not pretending like he's setting the world on fire back there with outstanding play. He's been adequate, but nothing special. That said, he is still rounding into game shape as is Gilmore so I expect his level of play to improve each week.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[YoloinOhio]

We have a great duo out there now at safety position. For all the ppl who are still pissed at Byrd (i'm among them) he's been a big difference back there. Leonard may have had a few INT's but was a liability vs. run and was rarely on time on deep balls and was not great when he was in coverage. With Byrd back there, Searcy can be a 3rd safety that still sees decent ammount of playing time and is great in that role and become great on blitz with a few sacks and some pressure.

 

 

with Gilmore starting to get back in form, this secondary is not a weakness anymore with Mcluvin as CB2 and Roby who has been great as nickel corner.

 

If Byrd leaves, that leaves us with a huge hole again at FS. Hopefully Duke is learning this yr and can step in next yr as starter but outside of Ha Ha Clinton-Dix (who is a top 8-15 pick which me will probably land) there is no outher Safety thats worth even a 2nd or 3rd rounder.

I agree - the safety position and secondary in general in CFB is really declining... maybe due to the new rules

[SmokinES3]

:-) Thanks guys.

I keep hoping this is the week Byrd shakes off the rust and makes a big play. With his talent, and the potential financial motivation, you have to think he's going to break out right?

[49er Fan]

Anyone know if A.Williams is starting today? I have him in fantasy.

 

Thanks and good luck vs. PITT.