WGR Interview: Joe DeLamielleure diagnosed with CTE

[NoSaint]

can't people without CTE suffer from anger and depression?

 

certainly. im not sure your point though. well, im actually fairly certain, but think its ridiculous if im right.

[bbb]

can't people without CTE suffer from anger and depression?

 

Not if they're football players apparently.

[Tcali]

While head trauma is certainly detrimental;No ifs ands or buts-We need to be careful about the conclusions drawn from all of this.-There is a lot of sloppy science out there.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Tcali

[26CornerBlitz]

While head trauma is certainly detrimental;No ifs ands or buts-We need to be careful about the conclusions drawn from all of this.-There is a lot of sloppy science out there.

 

Roger? Is that you?

[K-9]

While head trauma is certainly detrimental;No ifs ands or buts-We need to be careful about the conclusions drawn from all of this.-There is a lot of sloppy science out there.

 

Not with regard to the research done in this area.

[transient]

RE CTE

Hit your head a lot and you're going to damage something. I have no doubt that I have some lingering ailments from my younger sports days. And I am only 32. These guys doing it for 20 years of their life... of course. Just like carpenters have hand problems. And cashiers have sore knees and feet. And desk workers are a little heavier with bad backs. And so on and so forth. cTE is awful and I hate it for them but with anything in life there is risk. Anyone who doesn't understand that doesn't need to and can go on in their happy little life.

 

CTE in 10% of the entire NFL population? Is that about right? Is there an accurate number anywhere? Are they only going to count vested NFL players? What about the 2-3 year players that never made the Union and can't really be considered?

 

Not sure if you're headed down this path as vehemently as I am, but here is my take.

 

In the US in 2013, 5300 people in 100,000 between the ages of 65 and 74 were diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. 17000 in 100,000 between the ages of 75 and 84. It's one of the most common diseases of aging. According to the Deadspin article, the PET imaging that is being done to "diagnose" CTE uses the same markers that are being studied to "diagnose" Alzheimer's, but the pattern is different??? They're looking at middle aged former athletes with anger issues and depression who spent a third of their lives hitting their heads against a wall and saying that because the findings on an unvalidated test are more localized, instead of the diffuse findings on this unvalidated test that you would see in an older population with Alzheimer's, that this must be reflective of CTE and not Alheimer's? You can't diagnose Alzheimer's with a PET scan, but now you can diagnose CTE???

 

I'm not disputing CTE exists. I'm not disputing the value of the work that is being done on it. I AM disputing the significance of how the "facts" of this condition are being reported. And I AM disputing that any person who ever got hit in the head and has an amyloid plaque or some abnormal Tau deposition has CTE. People age... therefore, brains age...and aging results in abnormalities, regardless of whether or not you spent your life in a bubble or hitting your head against a concrete wall. Search the scholarly literature for anything other than descriptive data on CTE and you come up empty. And before 2010, barely any literature existed at all.

 

Right now, IMO, this is essentially an irresponsible paparazzi driven whirlwind because of who it is affecting and how this story is being told.

[NoSaint]

 

 

Not sure if you're headed down this path as vehemently as I am, but here is my take.

 

In the US in 2013, 5300 people in 100,000 between the ages of 65 and 74 were diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. 17000 in 100,000 between the ages of 75 and 84. It's one of the most common diseases of aging. According to the Deadspin article, the PET imaging that is being done to "diagnose" CTE uses the same markers that are being studied to "diagnose" Alzheimer's, but the pattern is different??? They're looking at middle aged former athletes with anger issues and depression who spent a third of their lives hitting their heads against a wall and saying that because the findings on an unvalidated test are more localized, instead of the diffuse findings on this unvalidated test that you would see in an older population with Alzheimer's, that this must be reflective of CTE and not Alheimer's? You can't diagnose Alzheimer's with a PET scan, but now you can diagnose CTE???

 

I'm not disputing CTE exists. I'm not disputing the value of the work that is being done on it. I AM disputing the significance of how the "facts" of this condition are being reported. And I AM disputing that any person who ever got hit in the head and has an amyloid plaque or some abnormal Tau deposition has CTE. People age... therefore, brains age...and aging results in abnormalities, regardless of whether or not you spent your life in a bubble or hitting your head against a concrete wall. Search the scholarly literature for anything other than descriptive data on CTE and you come up empty. And before 2010, barely any literature existed at all.

 

Right now, IMO, this is essentially an irresponsible paparazzi driven whirlwind because of who it is affecting and how this story is being told.

 

Seems your decently well versed. Always appreciate an educated opinion since CTE is above my pay grade

[dave mcbride]

Football is so entrenched in American society any decline would take a long time to be felt, but there is a parallel here, and it is boxing. Boxing was once the biggest sport in the USA, with huge events on free TV/Radio and huge gates. Over time the promoters discovered the joys of PPV, and various slices of the population turned away from the sport's brutality and its obvious health risks. Now boxing still exists, but it is a niche sport drawing its competitors from the ranks of the poor and disadvantaged who have little to lose.

Good point. Another comparison is NASCAR: a huge regional sport (the south), but not followed elsewhere by the masses. It does fine, of course, but it's not a national sport. That said, the NFL has a long way to fall before it becomes a regional sport. Time will tell.

[boyst]

Not sure if you're headed down this path as vehemently as I am, but here is my take.

 

In the US in 2013, 5300 people in 100,000 between the ages of 65 and 74 were diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. 17000 in 100,000 between the ages of 75 and 84. It's one of the most common diseases of aging. According to the Deadspin article, the PET imaging that is being done to "diagnose" CTE uses the same markers that are being studied to "diagnose" Alzheimer's, but the pattern is different??? They're looking at middle aged former athletes with anger issues and depression who spent a third of their lives hitting their heads against a wall and saying that because the findings on an unvalidated test are more localized, instead of the diffuse findings on this unvalidated test that you would see in an older population with Alzheimer's, that this must be reflective of CTE and not Alheimer's? You can't diagnose Alzheimer's with a PET scan, but now you can diagnose CTE???

 

I'm not disputing CTE exists. I'm not disputing the value of the work that is being done on it. I AM disputing the significance of how the "facts" of this condition are being reported. And I AM disputing that any person who ever got hit in the head and has an amyloid plaque or some abnormal Tau deposition has CTE. People age... therefore, brains age...and aging results in abnormalities, regardless of whether or not you spent your life in a bubble or hitting your head against a concrete wall. Search the scholarly literature for anything other than descriptive data on CTE and you come up empty. And before 2010, barely any literature existed at all.

 

Right now, IMO, this is essentially an irresponsible paparazzi driven whirlwind because of who it is affecting and how this story is being told.

I am not that educated on the subject matter, but if I can introduce some other related incidents... Vietnam troops coming back with agent orange. Iraq 1 troops coming back with...I can't remember off the top of my head. Iraq 2 troops coming back with PTSD all the time. It was originally on the thought that if you take 10,000 people then you will get at least 2,000 of them to develop some type of cancer, 2,000 that will live out full lives, 2,000 that will stub their toe on the couch...

 

It is a scary story because it is causing a ripple effect. The first ripples were stopping kickoffs in high school and junior high school games after the NFL went full back pedal. The second ripples are coming in other sports, other activities, and tests developed that are being taught to professionals in all levels that can help better assist head injuries. 20 years ago a concussion was just a sit it out a few plays type of injury. Today it is taken much more seriously. Last week I was watching a YouTube clip somewhere that I had found of a kid getting charged at catcher They did not look that big, nor did the hit look that hard but the kid backed up and stumbled a little bit then plopped down and started to cry (I think?). Anyway, the Ump and coaches were all there and the Ump was all over the coaches to back up. The Ump threw the charging kid out - yet, the moms and fans in the crowd were yelling at the Ump to call an ambulance. After many heckles the Ump warns them that he will throw them out if they keep it up. The kid gets up about a minute and shakes it off and goes back to playing. Clearly he was just "shook" by the hit but we have people ready to call the ambulance for just a hit. We are seeing a softening of play in the sports world that is geared toward protecting the athlete and I think that is fantastic. If this safety and protection of the athlete is justified and does not counter the simplicities of physics then I am all for it. But, a 6'6" 290 lbs. 4.6 DE cannot stop his momentum quick enough to all out avoid a hit some times and can only soften his launch.

 

I have some background in this (like a lot of things). I had my first possible concussion in 8th grade, after being slammed during wrestling practice. I was given an MRI and it was slight but not significant. In high school I had at least two other verified concussions. We were lucky to have high end training staff - we had a team chiropractor and massage therapist on staff. I would probably get a stinger every couple weeks, and maybe a serious one at least twice a season at some point. A stinger is deemed a spinal injury, but it's where your arm/shoulder goes numb for a few minutes at the most and it has a burning sensation to boot. I was a very hard hitter so I would get these... but I gave more then I got.

 

But, medically speaking I remember when my grandfather began getting dementia. I had read a lot about it since I am an INTJ. Dementia can vary and most people do not realize that Alzheimers is a form of this disease. His motor functions began to lose their sharpness. He wasn't able to do the simple muscle memory type actions he had been doing all his life. His writing, using a screw driver or anything which was not heavily physically intensive was a challenge. Having been a farmer all his life and just a poor boy turned blue collar laborer his life was hard lived. He wasn't taking shots to the head but he was building furniture 10 hours a day and farming every evening. He was abusing his body. I bring him up because it was not long after I watched a film on Mohammad Ali that I went to see my grandfather. He was able to talk, he was able to act otherwise normal but his motor functions when at their worst resembled Ali's. Current researchers say Ali's headshots may have taken a toll on his brain. I have wondered a very long time what the excuse was for my grandfather? If, even at my age, I go out and I work hard doing a fence then I will have sore hands, back, and just all over worn out. I won't be able to make a fist for a week from holding the tools so much, nor will I be able to move very well latterly because my back is worn out. My knees will ache because of the constant strain. I will, in essence, be like an old man. To imagine doing this for the rest of my life is something I greatly look forward to, but I know that week of recovery will soon not be just a week. I will be old and broken down and just like my grandfather. Maybe I am turning this in to a bit of a LAMP but I cannot believe that after years and years, and maybe decades of strain on joints, muscles, and nerves between it all that there will not be a breakdown of that system which will make a man feeble. There very may well be long term brain damage from certain events but I cannot look at what I have seen in my life and say that I have seen enough evidence when I look at most 50+ year old farmers and they look just like famous aged athletes.

 

Actually, come to think of it... I personally believe it was the death of Dale Earnhardt and what NASCAR began doing that put a spotlight on sports safety and head injuries. Put the sports world its ear that day and those that love sports won't forget that day and where they were when they heard.

[bbb]

The front page headline of the Buffalo News is Joe DeLamielleure has brain damage

 

GR is replaying his interview right now and there couldn't be a more lucid person talking.

[Steve O]

During the interview Joe talks about how the old timers (Art Donovan, some 101 year old) really didn't suffer much from concussion syndromes because they didn't use their heads to tackle with. Building on that point, helmets didn't afford much protection in those days. Maybe what is needed is to go back to the old equipment - if their was a more immediate consequence to using the head as a tool/weapon players wouldn't be so quick to lead with the head.

[NoSaint]

During the interview Joe talks about how the old timers (Art Donovan, some 101 year old) really didn't suffer much from concussion syndromes because they didn't use their heads to tackle with. Building on that point, helmets didn't afford much protection in those days. Maybe what is needed is to go back to the old equipment - if their was a more immediate consequence to using the head as a tool/weapon players wouldn't be so quick to lead with the head.

 

unfortunately with years of bad habits and men twice as big running twice as fast - youd see multiple deaths on the field.

[yungmack]

I could say so much about the whole CTE situation... but won't.

 

I will say if soccer ever replaces football I will just off myself to avoid what a miserable place this country would become...

What goes unreported is the huge number of concussions suffered by soccer players. I don't remember the figures but compared to Pop Warner, it was much higher. I don't know of studies on hockey, lacrosse, rugby, field hockey, etc., but they must up there too. You can add boxing, MMA, et al. Fact is, head injuries are wide spread throughout sports and many other activities. For some reason I don't understand, football has been singled out.

[NoSaint]

What goes unreported is the huge number of concussions suffered by soccer players. I don't remember the figures but compared to Pop Warner, it was much higher. I don't know of studies on hockey, lacrosse, rugby, field hockey, etc., but they must up there too. You can add boxing, MMA, et al. Fact is, head injuries are wide spread throughout sports and many other activities. For some reason I don't understand, football has been singled out.

 

1) Money

2) looks scary

3) willing plaintiffs

Edited November 8, 2013 by NoSaint

[Tcali]

unfortunately with years of bad habits and men twice as big running twice as fast - youd see multiple deaths on the field.

 

the size thing isnt a factor--the biggest change in size had been on the O line--and i think those guys have the least head to head hits--and they arent moving that fast.

Its the little or medium sized head hunters flying at full speed.

Now the bad habits...you hit it right on the head there(pun intended).Player used to hit /tackle with their shoulders because the headgear wasnt great.So the leather helmets were likely more safe overall.

[boyst]

What goes unreported is the huge number of concussions suffered by soccer players. I don't remember the figures but compared to Pop Warner, it was much higher. I don't know of studies on hockey, lacrosse, rugby, field hockey, etc., but they must up there too. You can add boxing, MMA, et al. Fact is, head injuries are wide spread throughout sports and many other activities. For some reason I don't understand, football has been singled out.

pretty sure head injuries are prevelant here too

[bbb]

What goes unreported is the huge number of concussions suffered by soccer players. I don't remember the figures but compared to Pop Warner, it was much higher. I don't know of studies on hockey, lacrosse, rugby, field hockey, etc., but they must up there too. You can add boxing, MMA, et al. Fact is, head injuries are wide spread throughout sports and many other activities. For some reason I don't understand, football has been singled out.

 

Just like baseball has been singled out about steroids, when you know football players are juicing, too.

[transient]

What goes unreported is the huge number of concussions suffered by soccer players. I don't remember the figures but compared to Pop Warner, it was much higher. I don't know of studies on hockey, lacrosse, rugby, field hockey, etc., but they must up there too. You can add boxing, MMA, et al. Fact is, head injuries are wide spread throughout sports and many other activities. For some reason I don't understand, football has been singled out.

1) Money

2) looks scary

3) willing plaintiffs

4) Hype. Which among those sports is more recognizable to a larger audience than the NFL? 5) Resources. If you were looking to fund your research, which of these sports would you choose?

[Tcali]

Not with regard to the research done in this area.

 

 

they havent completed the research or come up with many conclusions yet.i was warning about sloppy science--not declaring that these studies wer necessarily sloppy.

so lets wait til the studies are completed then read the research..Then lets judge the research.

[bbb]

I think the research is done. Anybody who ever played any sport, including Rick Martin, has CTE.