Jonathan Martin AWOL, Incognito suspended

[DC Tom]

I'm white and I could not disagree more. To me the crux of the issue is that the word does have very, very negative connotations period. As a result it's use is not appropriate. It's not a whole lot different than many words that pick up meanings that are larger than than perhaps they should. Why is not ok to say F .. but it is ok to say intercourse? They say the same thing in very literal terms. However the implied meaning and perception is far different. Why is it that the language filter on this board allows one but not the other?

 

Simple most people deem the use of the f word to be offensive. The N word is no different. It is offensive and wrong. Should I be allowed to use blackface and then run around and freely express the n word? The idea is offensive on many levels as it should be.

 

Silly? Perhaps but real nonetheless.

 

You lost me at "I'm white." Having to preface a post on the irrelevancy of race to the topic with your race?

[Just in Atlanta]

How is this about toughness and not respect?

 

If I call your wife, gf, daughter or niece a c.... would you not rightfully be offended? Does it make a bit of difference that my wife does it instead of me? No. The rationale applies to black use of the N word. It is a term of disrespect and is not appropriate for use in any setting.

You just made my point. To answer your question, I'd not be too happy. Ditto for a racial word. It's no different. But our PC society wants to single out those words.

 

Everyone should respect each other. But to single out certain words, and "ban" them, is part of the problem, not the solution.

 

So, yes, we need to toughen up a little, and stop getting so crazy over certain words and being OK with others.

 

Lost in all of this is that this guy claims to suffer from PTSD (the same thing our troops get from killing people and seeing their friends killed and seeing other horrors no one should ever see) and that his mom is a well known employment discrimination lawyer whose sued companies for things of this nature.

[boyst]

You just made my point. To answer your question, I'd not be too happy. Ditto for a racial word. It's no different. But our PC society wants to single out those words.

 

Everyone should respect each other. But to single out certain words, and "ban" them, is part of the problem, not the solution.

 

So, yes, we need to toughen up a little, and stop getting so crazy over certain words and being OK with others.

 

Lost in all of this is that this guy claims to suffer from PTSD (the same thing our troops get from killing people and seeing their friends killed and seeing other horrors no one should ever see) and that his mom is a well known employment discrimination lawyer whose sued companies for things of this nature.

which I don't think is very relevant. I don't see him and his camp being so stupid to want the quick settlement vs what could be a long career in the game and more money. Too much risk

 

If anything he was weakened by hearing his mom talk about how employers are evil organizations that made her son believe his actions were acceptable. Pure speculation, though.

[KD in CA]

How is this about toughness and not respect?

 

If I call your wife, gf, daughter or niece a c.... would you not rightfully be offended? Does it make a bit of difference that my wife does it instead of me? No. The rationale applies to black use of the N word. It is a term of disrespect and is not appropriate for use in any setting.

Sorry, but that's an absurd statement. How can you make a blanket statement without having any insight into the people who are using the term? Have you really never spent any time at all with any black people who called each other '!@#$' in a spirit of friendship?

 

As for the word '!@#$'; if your wife and my wife frequently referred to each other in private with that word, than no, there is nothing disrespectful about that. That's just a joke between two people.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5) Former Rams Head Coach Mike Martz said that the exact reason that he and the team drafted Incognito was because he had the toughness and belligerence they felt they needed to improve the team.

 

This is kinda interesting, considering that Incognito was drafted in 2006

Martz left the Rams for health reasons in mid-October 2005, was prevented by the Rams from coaching the end of the season after he was medically cleared to return, and was fired in early January 2006.

 

How would he know exactly why the Rams drafted Incognito?

 

Anyway, the Rams improved to 8-8 Incognito's rookie season, but then had 2-14 and 1-15 seasons for the next 3 years, so whether or not Martz really knows the ins and outs of the draft that happened 6 months after he gave up his head coaching duties, I would have to say if didn't entirely work

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Look for him in Indy with luck as his qb, flee net next to him at TE and his college coordinator pep Hamilton coaching him. There'd be skepticism but if those 3 went to bat for him, I think a team could accept him into the building.

 

Those are interesting points, except that Indy spent a 1st round draft pick on Tony Castonzo in 2011 and he seems to be working out for the Colts better than Martin worked out for Miami. So I'm not sure he fills a need for Indy.

[BuffaloBill]

 

Sorry, but that's an absurd statement. How can you make a blanket statement without having any insight into the people who are using the term? Have you really never spent any time at all with any black people who called each other '!@#$' in a spirit of friendship?

 

As for the word '!@#$'; if your wife and my wife frequently referred to each other in private with that word, than no, there is nothing disrespectful about that. That's just a joke between two people.

 

It's called integrity what you do in private should not be different than what you do in public.

 

 

 

You lost me at "I'm white." Having to preface a post on the irrelevancy of race to the topic with your race?

 

The article referenced specifically called out white people for telling black people that the n word is inappropriate. Had you read the article before spouting off you may have thought differently.

[KD in CA]

It's called integrity what you do in private should not be different than what you do in public.

 

Really? You'd be completely comfortable publicly broadcasting every conversation you've ever had with another person?

 

And I guess having sex with your wife in public is not only ok, but a sign of integrity?

[NoSaint]

 

 

Those are interesting points, except that Indy spent a 1st round draft pick on Tony Castonzo in 2011 and he seems to be working out for the Colts better than Martin worked out for Miami. So I'm not sure he fills a need for Indy.

 

I bet they carry more than 1 tackle next year though. Martins price tag will near certainly be less than his ability (which granted hasn't been great, but he'd be a real cheap swing tackle for them)

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I bet they carry more than 1 tackle next year though. Martins price tag will near certainly be less than his ability (which granted hasn't been great, but he'd be a real cheap swing tackle for them)

 

If he's released by Mia and will sign for minimum with incentives, perhaps. I agree with you it's his best bet.

[BuffaloBill]

 

 

Really? You'd be completely comfortable publicly broadcasting every conversation you've ever had with another person?

 

And I guess having sex with your wife in public is not only ok, but a sign of integrity?

 

Is this the best response you have?

 

Integrity would mean that you act to a consistent set of beliefs in private and in public.

 

Societal norms would make it improper for my wife and I to have sex in public. They also make it acceptable for us to have sex in private. Therefore, we act with integrity when we according to our beliefs which are consistent with societal norms in both private and public.

 

If the use of any word is not considered acceptable in public then acting with integrity says you don't use it in private. If you want to argue using the N word anywhere is acceptable then have at it. Just don't say it is not acceptable to use openly with others but then is ok privately.

 

 

[San Jose Bills Fan]

This is kinda interesting, considering that Incognito was drafted in 2006

Martz left the Rams for health reasons in mid-October 2005, was prevented by the Rams from coaching the end of the season after he was medically cleared to return, and was fired in early January 2006.

 

How would he know exactly why the Rams drafted Incognito?

 

Anyway, the Rams improved to 8-8 Incognito's rookie season, but then had 2-14 and 1-15 seasons for the next 3 years, so whether or not Martz really knows the ins and outs of the draft that happened 6 months after he gave up his head coaching duties, I would have to say if didn't entirely work

 

I had zero knowledge of the chronology of events.

 

I simply read a blurb and accurately paraphrased it to make the point that the Incognito story was still alive and unwell.

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/09/mike-martz-rams-drafted-richie-incognito-because-hes-nasty/

 

The more important point of the Martz comment is that belligerence and reckless aggression are assets in the NFL as long as the player in question is not hurting the team more than he's helping them.

[26CornerBlitz]

‏@AlbertBreer

Richie Incognito's grievance hearing is tentatively set for Thursday in S Florida, before arbitrator Jonathan Marks http://www.nfl.com/n...ctions …

 

 

@NFLonTheHill

Fun Football Facts: 'Ingognito' is the 'Word on the Street' on Sesame Street this morning. Let's have a good Football Sunday!

Edited November 17, 2013 by 26CornerBlitz

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I had zero knowledge of the chronology of events.

I simply read a blurb and accurately paraphrased it to make the point that the Incognito story was still alive and unwell.

http://profootballta...ause-hes-nasty/

The more important point of the Martz comment is that belligerence and reckless aggression are assets in the NFL as long as the player in question is not hurting the team more than he's helping them.

 

If your point was that the story was alive and unwell, point granted.

Thanks for the link.

"Mike Martz, the Rams’ coach in 2005, told the New York Times that his team wanted players with attitude, and Incognito was just the kind of guy they thought could become part of the tough, physical offensive line they wanted.

“Because that’s the way the game is played in the NFL, obviously,” Martz said. “That nastiness is evident, especially in Incognito.”

There are a lot of people in the NFL who want no part of people like Richie Incognito, but there are also a lot of people in the NFL who think the toughness displayed by Richie Incognito is exactly what a football team needs. There’s a battle playing out in the NFL right now over which side will win out."

 

I think there's no battle at all. Incognito was dumped from the Rams after 8-8, 2-14, 2-14, 1-15 to which he contributed with 38 penalties in 44 games, many for personal fouls (head-butting opponents after the play etc) and having screaming matches in the locker room, including with the head coach. Incognito definitely did his part to make the Rams a team in turmoil and a losing team. Meanwhile, teams your article quotes as passing on him such as the Colts and NE, had great, cohesive offensive lines and went to championships.

 

It's well known in the military that the big, blustery "tough guys" are often the ones who wash out of special forces training quickly, while the quieter guys can actually turn out to be far tougher, and last.

[NoSaint]

 

 

If your point was that the story was alive and unwell, point granted.

Thanks for the link.

"Mike Martz, the Rams’ coach in 2005, told the New York Times that his team wanted players with attitude, and Incognito was just the kind of guy they thought could become part of the tough, physical offensive line they wanted.

“Because that’s the way the game is played in the NFL, obviously,” Martz said. “That nastiness is evident, especially in Incognito.”

There are a lot of people in the NFL who want no part of people like Richie Incognito, but there are also a lot of people in the NFL who think the toughness displayed by Richie Incognito is exactly what a football team needs. There’s a battle playing out in the NFL right now over which side will win out."

 

I think there's no battle at all. Incognito was dumped from the Rams after 8-8, 2-14, 2-14, 1-15 to which he contributed with 38 penalties in 44 games, many for personal fouls (head-butting opponents after the play etc) and having screaming matches in the locker room, including with the head coach. Incognito definitely did his part to make the Rams a team in turmoil and a losing team. Meanwhile, teams your article quotes as passing on him such as the Colts and NE, had great, cohesive offensive lines and went to championships.

 

It's well known in the military that the big, blustery "tough guys" are often the ones who wash out of special forces training quickly, while the quieter guys can actually turn out to be far tougher, and last.

 

Incognito is also on record as his St. Louis days being a disaster of drugs and alcohol. He was a MESS there.

[KD in CA]

Is this the best response you have?

 

Integrity would mean that you act to a consistent set of beliefs in private and in public.

 

Societal norms would make it improper for my wife and I to have sex in public. They also make it acceptable for us to have sex in private. Therefore, we act with integrity when we according to our beliefs which are consistent with societal norms in both private and public.

 

If the use of any word is not considered acceptable in public then acting with integrity says you don't use it in private. If you want to argue using the N word anywhere is acceptable then have at it. Just don't say it is not acceptable to use openly with others but then is ok privately.

 

Ah, so the underlying principle of integrity is based on society's whims of the moment. So 'N---r' was ok 200 years ago, 'f---t' was ok 20 years ago and 'Redskins' was ok one year ago, since those would have been socially ok publically or privately. Nice integrity.

 

I think I've been pretty open and consistent on my views on the absurdity of nanny state policies like censorship of specific words or 'hate speech'. And I think very little that is done or said or agreed upon between two consenting adults in private is 'unacceptable', regardless of what the media says.

 

The part you continue to miss is that the very people harmed by racism (against blacks) are the ones who have chosen to take the sting out of the word by turning it into a joke. I'm not going to pass judgment on them for doing so when and where they choose, even if some people don't agree with their approach.

Edited November 17, 2013 by KD in CT

[SmokinES3]

 

 

Ah, so the underlying principle of integrity is based on society's whims of the moment. So 'N---r' was ok 200 years ago, 'f---t' was ok 20 years ago and 'Redskins' was ok one year ago, since those would have been socially ok publically or privately. Nice integrity.

 

I think I've been pretty open and consistent on my views on the absurdity of nanny state policies like censorship of specific words or 'hate speech'. And I think very little that is done or said or agreed upon between two consenting adults in private is 'unacceptable', regardless of what the media has told lemmings to think or say,

 

The part you continue to miss is that the very people harmed by racism (against blacks) are the ones who have chosen to take the sting out of the word by turning it into a joke. I'm not going to pass judgment on them for doing so when and where they choose, even if some people don't agree with their approach.

 

Best post in this thread thus far. If only the rest of society could get on board the common sense train. Its too much to ask unfortunately.

[26CornerBlitz]

@NFL_ATL

NFL investigator Ted Wells issues statement in Martin case http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000284020/article/nfl-investigator-ted-wells-issues-statement-in-martin-case?campaign=Twitter_atl …

[Rob's House]

 

If I had to guess, the report is going to say something like, "this was an issue between 2 people, and was born out of miscommunication. Martin truly felt bullied; Incognito truly felt like he was treating him like a brother; the Dolphins should have done a better job in training their team leaders."

If I had to guess I'd say that's probably a fairly accurate summary based on everything that's come out.

 

 

 

Is this the best response you have?

 

Integrity would mean that you act to a consistent set of beliefs in private and in public.

 

Societal norms would make it improper for my wife and I to have sex in public. They also make it acceptable for us to have sex in private. Therefore, we act with integrity when we according to our beliefs which are consistent with societal norms in both private and public.

 

If the use of any word is not considered acceptable in public then acting with integrity says you don't use it in private. If you want to argue using the N word anywhere is acceptable then have at it. Just don't say it is not acceptable to use openly with others but then is ok privately.

The word is just a sequence of sounds and is itself inherently neutral. What makes it offensive is the meaning behind it, which is often contextual. For that reason alone there are instances where to say something that is inoffensive privately may be offensive publicly because the public doesn't know the context.

[NoSaint]

http://deadspin.com/shawn-andrews-time-with-eagles-felt-like-a-living-hel-1467921034

 

Not directly related, but on the topic of NFL locker rooms and didnt want to start a new thread - shawn andrews speaking out about his time in philly. really puts the spotlight on mcnabb for being a jerk.