A Dog Named Kelso Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 (edited) The thing is, many people who have been in that locker room situation are not fully lining up behind Martin. There's still more positive attitudes from Miami players towards Richie than towards Martin. I know, odd. Here's a guy with first had experience on walking out on the league. Being popular does not make one's actions correct.. Edited November 6, 2013 by cklapka
dave mcbride Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 (edited) The thing is, many people who have been in that locker room situation are not fully lining up behind Martin. There's still more positive attitudes from Miami players towards Richie than towards Martin. I know, odd. Here's a guy with first had experience on walking out on the league. There's no one more despised in the maximum security prison system than the inmate who reports on brutal crimes committed at the behest of the prison gangs that rule those systems. In interviews of prison inmates, the supporters of retribution generally always say that the code must be followed. There is also this, which is a fairly pervasive attitude in certain environs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Snitchin%27 . Edited November 6, 2013 by dave mcbride
GG Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 There's no one more despised in the maximum security prison system than the inmate who reports on brutal crimes committed at the behest of the prison gangs that rule those systems. In interviews of prison inmates, the supporters of retribution generally always say that the code must be followed. There is also this, which is a fairly pervasive attitude in certain environs: http://en.wikipedia..../Stop_Snitchin' . That is a code they developed as a matter of survival in prison. Don't know if I'd use that as an exact parallel, but yes there are similarities. Just like the similarities to military training. Is Martin a hero, or is he private Pyle, who the superior officers are afraid to put on the front line endangering the rest of the platoon? Martin's job is to protect the franchise's most valuable asset. If he's not up to the job, he shouldn't be in that job. The situation got out of hand publicly because Philbin made a mistake by having Incognito be the motivator. But honestly, other than the voice mails, do you think the situation would have ended differently if Mike Pouncey played the heavy? What if Pouncey had left the exact same VMs? How different is Martin's situation to when Mike Williams locked himself in a room in training camp refusing to come out? Maybe Miami players don't want to publicly buck the code. But if there was no ambiguity to what really happened on that team, you would have no shortage of players talking to the press off the record, especially if the case was racially charged. Even if the Dolphins players don't want to buck the code and cross the thin aqua line, they would be under no compunction to offer any statements supporting Incognito. Yet you have several players standing behind Incognito. And that does not fit the narrative of how most of the stories are written. So while I may come off smug in this thread, it's because I have a strong hunch that the full story is not near what has been reported so far, simply based on the reactions of people who were in the midst of it. There are plenty of opportunities for everyone involved to throw Incognito under the bus, and no one is racing to that spot. Most of the commentary is by people interjecting their views of bullies and being bullied and applying that to this situation, which in my view does not apply here.
dave mcbride Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 (edited) That is a code they developed as a matter of survival in prison. Don't know if I'd use that as an exact parallel, but yes there are similarities. Just like the similarities to military training. Is Martin a hero, or is he private Pyle, who the superior officers are afraid to put on the front line endangering the rest of the platoon? Martin's job is to protect the franchise's most valuable asset. If he's not up to the job, he shouldn't be in that job. The situation got out of hand publicly because Philbin made a mistake by having Incognito be the motivator. But honestly, other than the voice mails, do you think the situation would have ended differently if Mike Pouncey played the heavy? What if Pouncey had left the exact same VMs? How different is Martin's situation to when Mike Williams locked himself in a room in training camp refusing to come out? Maybe Miami players don't want to publicly buck the code. But if there was no ambiguity to what really happened on that team, you would have no shortage of players talking to the press off the record, especially if the case was racially charged. Even if the Dolphins players don't want to buck the code and cross the thin aqua line, they would be under no compunction to offer any statements supporting Incognito. Yet you have several players standing behind Incognito. And that does not fit the narrative of how most of the stories are written. So while I may come off smug in this thread, it's because I have a strong hunch that the full story is not near what has been reported so far, simply based on the reactions of people who were in the midst of it. There are plenty of opportunities for everyone involved to throw Incognito under the bus, and no one is racing to that spot. Most of the commentary is by people interjecting their views of bullies and being bullied and applying that to this situation, which in my view does not apply here. I don't think you sound smug - you're simply playing devil's advocate. I think part of what is unsaid (not by you, but by the media) is that Incognito, Pouncey, and the newly arrived Bryant McKinnie are all complete a-holes. I have no idea about the rest of the team, but it may have seemed like a pretty lousy environment after Stanford and Harvard-Westlake. I suspect it's probably a pretty mercenary bunch. As for him telling, my understanding is that his parents advised him on this. It's what parents almost always advise children to do in normal work/school situations involving abuse/bullying. In my office, if something remotely like this happened, I would expect the person to leave and quite possibly sue. And I wouldn't think any less of them for it. Clearly, though, the NFL is not a normal work environment. As for not throwing him under the bus, perhaps it's because most participate in the process. Also, I love "the thin aqua line"! EDIT: This is interesting: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/2013/11/richie-incognito-considered-black-in-dolphins-locker-room.html . Edited November 6, 2013 by dave mcbride
GaryPinC Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 (edited) But as others have pointed out too, what makes a person strong in real life is not necessarily what makes a person strong in a professional football setting. Anyone ask why so few NFL players and current Dolphins have unequivocally come to Martin's support. Everything his current teammates have said has been very subtle. If it was truly as bad as the stories that are written, I'm guessing there would be far more commentary from the Dolphins players. Pretty much all the NFL players/former players who will talk about the subject say it should have stayed and been handled within the locker room. So now Martin's current teamates are supposed to follow his example and bring it out of the locker room? For me, I took some hints from Woods' comments on Incognito: "But man (Incognito) crossed the line with some of the language that he used. I know Richie well; we have the same agent and he was here in 2009 when I broke my leg. I know Richie, he's kind of a cross-the-line humor type of guy. I think he probably had a misjudgment here, especially with the voicemail he left, and that's the only evidence really that you can go by." I also look at all the various pictures that have surfaced of Incognito and Martin together. Maybe I'm wrong but seems like they hung out at times. Richie was a team captain. Then there's Martin's former high school coach who talked about how much Martin internalized. Richie is a first class Richard. He's dirty, crosses the line into offensive humor and cares primarily about himself. Obviously he got along well with at least some of his teammates. For me everything points to Martin not standing up for himself and Richie just continuing to push the limits farther and farther. Wouldn't be surprised if Incognito was hoping Martin would fight back. Well, he did in his own way. Not the NFL way, but his own way. Seems like the NFL way will be changing. Edited November 6, 2013 by GaryPinC
GG Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 I don't think you sound smug - you're simply playing devil's advocate. I think part of what is unsaid (not by you, but by the media) is that Incognito, Pouncey, and the newly arrived Bryant McKinnie are all complete a-holes. I have no idea about the rest of the team, but it may have seemed like a pretty lousy environment after Stanford and Harvard-Westlake. I suspect it's probably a pretty mercenary bunch. Very likely. Don't know if you listen to Adam Carolla's podcast, but his soundman was a part-time coach at Harvard-Westlake and his account of the type of athletic program they ran there certainly explains why Martin wasn't mentally prepared for the bigger leagues.
Prickly Pete Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 (edited) 1. There is a difference between on field vs. off field interaction, I think we all get that. 2. These guys are teammates, this is not trash talk. 3. I'm going to rip your head off does not come close to what was said. You're minimizing a serious thing, and the idea that this was in the context of friendship / goofing around seems highly unlikely given the circumstances. More fuel. A lot have already been speculating on this, so it's not too surprising. http://deadspin.com/...up-j-1459210109 I never put forward the idea it was friendly or "goofing around". My point is, did Martin truly feel PHYSICALLY threatened, or was it just a really obnoxious, VERBALLY abusive co-worker who constantly busted his balls? I'm not claiming what RI said was in any way acceptable, but if he was doing this for a season and a half, it would seem that Martin didn't actually think Incognito intended to go after his mother. Edited November 6, 2013 by Marauder'sMicro
NoSaint Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 My point is, did Martin truly feel PHYSICALLY threatened, or was it just a really obnoxious co-worker who constantly busted his balls? I'm not claiming what RI said was in anyway acceptable, but if he was doing this for a season and a half, it would seem that Martin didn't actually think Incognito was going to go after his mother. I'll generally agree though he may have been worried about incognito inflicting some sort of physical punishment on him directly. I don't think the threats on family were taken serious as much as simply something he has no reason to be asked to put up with.
boyst Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 I find it odd that speculation has now fueled it this far. I also find it confusing. The NFL is not like our employers. It is WWE meets Hip-Hop. A culture that is vastly different then what we are accustomed to is something that many seem quick to judge.
Captain Caveman Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 (edited) I find it odd that speculation has now fueled it this far. I also find it confusing. The NFL is not like our employers. It is WWE meets Hip-Hop. A culture that is vastly different then what we are accustomed to is something that many seem quick to judge. Yet you admit to judging Martin and that's ok. I don't get it. I'm kind of tired of bringing this up, but I'm more tired of reading "quick to judge" from someone who admittedly passed judgement on the first page of this thread when we had a lot less information than we do now. My point is, did Martin truly feel PHYSICALLY threatened, or was it just a really obnoxious, VERBALLY abusive co-worker who constantly busted his balls? I doubt that he physically felt threatened, or he would have contacted team security or law enforcement. So? Edited November 6, 2013 by Captain Caveman
26CornerBlitz Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 @AdamSchefter Latest on Jonathan Martin checking himself into hospital after he felt harassed, via @mortreport. http://is.gd/YIwTas
Prickly Pete Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 I'll generally agree though he may have been worried about incognito inflicting some sort of physical punishment on him directly. I don't think the threats on family were taken serious as much as simply something he has no reason to be asked to put up with. I agree. When an article proclaims "RI threatened Martins family in voicemails" it's a bit misleading. I just think people are interpreting some of the information in a way that suits some point they would like to make about society at large. I'm certainly not a Richie Incognito fan.
BigBuff423 Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 I find it odd that speculation has now fueled it this far. I also find it confusing. The NFL is not like our employers. It is WWE meets Hip-Hop. A culture that is vastly different then what we are accustomed to is something that many seem quick to judge. Really?? Again??? This whole "quick to judge" thing?? Again??? Good God Batman, stop shining the signal...we get it...you think Incognito is being made out to be worse than he is and that he's merely taking the lion's share of the blame...but beating this same drum for a racist, hateful thug is just despicable at this point... Do the Fins take more responsibility as the story unfolds? Absolutely...but condemning one party, does not absolve the other...the Miami organization will need to answer many questions on how it has handled this entire debacle from the beginning of what appears to be more than a year ago...but Incognito is a lame-ass, nasty individual with virtually no respect for the basic mores our nation has taken to uphold: racial degredation is unacceptable in any manner, in any form, for any reason, in any forum...don't give me this stupid bull **** about how it's "WWE meets Hip-Hop"...it may be a diffirent sub-culture based upon expectations, but that in no way excuses or explains such bevaior, it only highlights that more attention is paid to racial lines in a nationally recognized sport and industry.... Let....it.....go. Incognito is guilty...boom, gavel swung....sentencing is still yet to be decided. Bigger question needing to be answered is who "else" is guilty, not guilty *in place of* Incognito...
Prickly Pete Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 I doubt that he physically felt threatened, or he would have contacted team security or law enforcement. So? "So" I'll let you figure out the difference.
Captain Caveman Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 "So" I'll let you figure out the difference. I understand the difference. I don't think the reaction here has been based on a belief that he was physically threatened, so I don't understand your point.
dave mcbride Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 @AdamSchefter Latest on Jonathan Martin checking himself into hospital after he felt harassed, via @mortreport. http://is.gd/YIwTas good link - thanks.
Prickly Pete Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 (edited) I understand the difference. I don't think the reaction here has been based on a belief that he was physically threatened, so I don't understand your point. It's been portrayed that way in the media, and it's just one example of how some of the information that has been released can be misleading, or misinterpreted. RI suddenly shutting up is "funny how after the voicemails he suddenly goes quiet". Well, that may be true, but did he shut up because he was told to by the team, his lawyer, or even just because he now realizes this might end up in court. Or maybe he now knows he is guilty and the jig is up? ANY of those could be the reason, but on this board it's because he knows he is guilty. Martin has checked into some hospital for mental issues. Is this a calculated move, or does he have serious mental issues? I'm not sure, but an awful lot of posters here seem sure, and they are going to chide anyone that is a bit skeptical, because they know someone that had these issues etc. Edited November 6, 2013 by Marauder'sMicro
boyst Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 Really?? Again??? This whole "quick to judge" thing?? Again??? Good God Batman, stop shining the signal...we get it...you think Incognito is being made out to be worse than he is and that he's merely taking the lion's share of the blame...but beating this same drum for a racist, hateful thug is just despicable at this point... Do the Fins take more responsibility as the story unfolds? Absolutely...but condemning one party, does not absolve the other...the Miami organization will need to answer many questions on how it has handled this entire debacle from the beginning of what appears to be more than a year ago...but Incognito is a lame-ass, nasty individual with virtually no respect for the basic mores our nation has taken to uphold: racial degredation is unacceptable in any manner, in any form, for any reason, in any forum...don't give me this stupid bull **** about how it's "WWE meets Hip-Hop"...it may be a diffirent sub-culture based upon expectations, but that in no way excuses or explains such bevaior, it only highlights that more attention is paid to racial lines in a nationally recognized sport and industry.... Let....it.....go. Incognito is guilty...boom, gavel swung....sentencing is still yet to be decided. Bigger question needing to be answered is who "else" is guilty, not guilty *in place of* Incognito... you're whatever tom says Yet you admit to judging Martin and that's ok. I don't get it. I'm kind of tired of bringing this up, but I'm more tired of reading "quick to judge" from someone who admittedly passed judgement on the first page of this thread when we had a lot less information than we do now. I doubt that he physically felt threatened, or he would have contacted team security or law enforcement. So? the speculative judging is done for incognito in my case as well. That's where I've been a little off the beaten path. Not condemning anyone yet but saying both parties are guilty and there is more to be heard as this goes. And more will be guilty. Likely an entire culture and league will take the blame.
FireChan Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 Martin probably has mental issues. Verbal abuse or not, checking yourself into a hospital is not a "normal" thing to do.
NoSaint Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 Means little ultimately, but part of the story i suppose - martin was pretty solid in the predraft psych tests: http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/miami-dolphins-jonathan-martin-no-warning-signs-in-pre-draft-psychological-tests-wonderlic-110613 “Martin enjoys man-to-man challenges and the chance to compete,” the report said. “During games he will demonstrate a tough, no-holds-barred aggressive attitude that will help bring out the competitive spirit in his teammates. Martin has a very high level of dedication and desire to reach his full potential as a player, and he will set a good example of getting the most of one’s ability. He takes practices seriously and will work hard to improve his skills and technique. He has a strong passion for the game and being a good football player is a very high priority for him." “Deep down, Martin has high expectations for himself and consistently feels that he can accomplish what he sets out to do on the field. Coaches will see that he will be able to shrug off bad breaks during a game and maintain confidence in his ability to succeed.” “Martin’s mental ability test results are consistently positive,” the report reads. “His matrices data place him well above the minimum typically associated with his position." “He is not afraid to say what is on his mind if things are not going as they should. He is likely to be seen as a team enforcer if his level of play lets him assume this role." Martin probably has mental issues. Verbal abuse or not, checking yourself into a hospital is not a "normal" thing to do. if you are having troubles, and have resources its really not absurd to seek professional advice. especially if you just snapped at your workplace, its probably good practice and something his parents asked him to do just to be safe and make sure things are ok.
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