NoSaint Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 He could have improved. But as I recounted earlier, this meltdown occurred a week after the team traded for Bryant McKinnie. Are the two related? I don't know, but the timing is odd. What exactly happened in the cafeteria that made him snap? And a cafeteria is a very public team space and it's doubtful that it was just Martin and Incognito there. So why aren't more Dolphin players saying anything, even off the record? Why did it take a week for the team to cut Incognito? There's a lot more to the story than what's being written. If the story was as cut and dry as being reported, there would be an avalanche of "team sources" talking to ESPN right now. the team is telling coaches to shut up and no player is going to "cross the line" would be the easiest explanation
Formerly Allan in MD Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 Lay off of poor Richie. He's no longer incognito and has finally come out. Everyone now knows what a worthless "human being" he is, and that's probably being nice. Don't believe for one moment the Miami organization didn't know what was going on. It was too blatant. The Miami Ostriches anyone, or Penn State?
dayman Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 Great interview with London Fletcher on the subject. http://www.washingto...ir-locker-room/ Basically the same comments most everybody has given on the issue. Heard Polian on Cowherd today ... basically said the same thing. The interesting part imo was Fletcher and Polian both really emphasize how the veterans are expected to control this. Don't get me wrong, it does make sense that the HC is not the babysitter of grown men. However, the HC is the boss. Every boss I've worked for controls the interaction that happens in the office ... not to a micro-level but they set a tone and people know how tight or lose it is based on the boss. So ... I guess what I'm saying is I understand it's a team sport and HC is not a babysitter however ... he is a boss and there is clearly, in my mind, a duty and responsibility to set a tone. Sounds like Miami's coach set absolutely no tone at all and just let the inamtes run the assylum. When I hear Polian talk about Dungy and Marv relying on veterans a lot to handle this...it sounds like they rely on them handling this knowing they have bought in and are down with the overal tone they set. Here...Miami appears to just have let them handle it w/ absolutely no expectations or guidelines set in the first place. And this is not just to throw the coach under the bus ... it's also the GM. He let all the veteran leadership go and brought in Incognito to replace them lol
dave mcbride Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 Sounds like Martin is guilty of being a decent person: http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thedailydolphin/2013/11/05/jonathan-martins-high-school-coach-bullies-usually-go-after-people-like-him/ .
boyst Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 the team is telling coaches to shut up and no player is going to "cross the line" would be the easiest explanation There would still be unquoted sources... I have to wonder what is going on? The interesting part imo was Fletcher and Polian both really emphasize how the veterans are expected to control this... Who are there veteran leaders? Look at their dang QB...
dayman Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 Who are there veteran leaders? Look at their dang QB... agreed, hence my last line also putting blame on the GM
boyst Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 agreed, hence my last line also putting blame on the GM Literally... no. I am wondering... who are there leaders? http://www.miamidolp...-roster.html I looked at their roster for answers. I laughed at how they have Incognito listed... Clabo is likely a leader - being he is a a solid vet with good time and on the OL. Bryant McKinney has twelve years and is not a leader but likely an influence. Randy Starks is likely a solid leader. Pouncy... same as McKinney. Interesting team they have. When looking at just the roster you can see how the chemistry might be an issue.
QB Bills Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 Kind of saddening that some of these people insinuating that Jonathan Martin is a "kitty" are probably parents. Not being confrontational isn't the same as being a "kitty". Ridiculous.
BADOLBILZ Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 They're still gonna have to pay him for four years time. No way do they get out of that, and they'd be foolish to fight it. Btw, what he did wasn't really whistle-blowing, which usually refers to when an underling reports on management. He reported on a colleague for malicious harassment. To reiterate, that's not whistleblowing. I'm not saying he'll play again, but it won't be because of some generic dislike of whistleblowers; it'll be because NFL culture is about as retrograde as it gets in America. It's not about dislike......it is about distrust. When you accounce to the public that your team permits "bullying"......YEAH......that is whistle-blowing. "Reporting a co-worker" is only that if you keep it within the organization. Once you go outside, you draw a line between yourself and the company/offending individual.
NoSaint Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 (edited) Basically the same comments most everybody has given on the issue. Heard Polian on Cowherd today ... basically said the same thing. The interesting part imo was Fletcher and Polian both really emphasize how the veterans are expected to control this. Don't get me wrong, it does make sense that the HC is not the babysitter of grown men. However, the HC is the boss. Every boss I've worked for controls the interaction that happens in the office ... not to a micro-level but they set a tone and people know how tight or lose it is based on the boss. So ... I guess what I'm saying is I understand it's a team sport and HC is not a babysitter however ... he is a boss and there is clearly, in my mind, a duty and responsibility to set a tone. Sounds like Miami's coach set absolutely no tone at all and just let the inamtes run the assylum. When I hear Polian talk about Dungy and Marv relying on veterans a lot to handle this...it sounds like they rely on them handling this knowing they have bought in and are down with the overal tone they set. Here...Miami appears to just have let them handle it w/ absolutely no expectations or guidelines set in the first place. And this is not just to throw the coach under the bus ... it's also the GM. He let all the veteran leadership go and brought in Incognito to replace them lol I think the actual head coach stays out of the locker room and personal stuff day to day and relies on position coaches, player leadership, etc.... to keep an eye. Head coach is closer to CEO whereas coordinators, trainers, position coaches, are his eyes and ears on the ground and mid level management. That's not to absolve him in the slightest, but simply my impression if organizational structure- which agrees with your take Literally... no. I am wondering... who are there leaders? http://www.miamidolphins.com/team/player-roster.html I looked at their roster for answers. I laughed at how they have Incognito listed... Clabo is likely a leader - being he is a a solid vet with good time and on the OL. Bryant McKinney has twelve years and is not a leader but likely an influence. Randy Starks is likely a solid leader. Pouncy... same as McKinney. Interesting team they have. When looking at just the roster you can see how the chemistry might be an issue. Mckinney's only been there two-three weeks but I could see him walking in with an expectation that he'd fill a certain role and demand certain treatment. I've mentioned it before but I agree Ireland will end up in the crosshairs before too long when you look at incognito pouncey and McKinney being 3/5 of that starting line There would still be unquoted sources... I have to wonder what is going on? I don't think you wonder that much - you could write a pretty easy narrative where players went to far, coaches didnt step in and now no one wants to say anything for fear of saying something wrong. Several players have had comments publicly that would support this - wake, Wallace, one of the DBs. If wake and Wallace are on team incognito why would a rookie or very young underperforming vet think he has any voice with the staff over a guy like Richie who is a designated leader - with a Richie incognito hates taxes and rookies poster in his locker. Edited November 6, 2013 by NoSaint
Prickly Pete Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 (edited) I don't think you wonder that much - you could write a pretty easy narrative I think No Saint is jumping to a lot of conclusions, and writing an EASY narrative. None of us really knows the nuances of the situation. It's obvious that Incognito is at least an annoying douche, but much of the "incriminating evidence" (like " Richie incognito hates taxes and rookies poster in his locker") can be open to interpretation. I think many people are projecting their own experiences onto this situation (family mental illness, workplace bullying), and going off on tangents, then coming back to this situation with skewed perspective. Also, it should be mentioned that Martin hasn't pressed any charges, and his Harvard educated lawyer parents haven't started any legal proceedings. Edited November 6, 2013 by Marauder'sMicro
Captain Caveman Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 None of us really knows the nuances of the situation. It's obvious that Incognito is at least an annoying douche, but much of the "incriminating evidence" (like " Richie incognito hates taxes and rookies poster in his locker") can be open to interpretation. The content of the voicemail leaves no room for nuances or interpretation.
Prickly Pete Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 (edited) The content of the voicemail leaves no room for nuances or interpretation. I haven't heard it, but it could easily be read like a WWF wrestler. We don't know enough about their relationship to know how seriously to interpret the comments. They are stupid and immature, no doubt. But I don't know if Martin really felt that Incognito wanted to "s*** down his neck" (or whatever he said), or that Martin REALLY felt RI might KILL him. And if he did, wouldn't he go to the police? When Lawrence Taylor shouts at a QB "I'm going to rip your head off" is it time for a restraining order? Edited November 6, 2013 by Marauder'sMicro
atlbillsfan1975 Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 (edited) Or that he didn't trust his boss to do the right thing. It also may say that he did not think his "boss" would do anything about it. Also, after the cafeteria incident (which apparently was the straw that broke the camel's back), he probably did not do that much thinking other than say to himself "!@#$ this ****. I am not taking this **** anymore." I get what you guys are saying. But he did not even try or approach his HC. Philbin(sp) does not seem like the type of guy to do nothing. Philbin seems like a guy who would be sympathetic to someone in trouble after losing his own son. Time will tell. But Martin not even trying to go to his coach about it is off putting to me. If your coach does nothing, fine, then leave the team and do what Martin is doing. he skipped a very important step in the process. He also could have gone to his HC very early on when things really started to bother him and had it taken care of, or not. He also coul dhave said me or Richie has to go, trade me or him. There are many things Martin could have done besides collect evidence and then walk away. Edited November 6, 2013 by atlbillsfan1975
NoSaint Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 (edited) And now Albert breer is saying that Martin had met with philbin in the spring to discuss personal issues And incognito happened to also mention on TV last year that they had tannehill buy all the lineman jet skis. more bad news for the dolphins I guess I haven't heard it, but it could easily be read like a WWF wrestler. We don't know enough about their relationship to know how seriously to interpret the comments. They are stupid and immature, no doubt. But I don't know if Martin really felt that Incognito wanted to "s*** down his neck" (or whatever he said), or that Martin REALLY felt RI might KILL him. And if he did, wouldn't he go to the police? When Lawrence Taylor tells the QB "I'm going to rip your head off" is it time for a restraining order? They'd have to have a pretty darn specific relationship for that to be even remotely acceptable to Martin and Martin has given every indication that's not at all the type they had.... So.... Funny now that Richie realizes that JM had proof he's gotten real quiet for a guy that was VERY vocal proclaiming his innocence just hours earlier. I get what you guys are saying. But he did not even try or approach his HC. Philbin(sp) does not seem like the type of guy to do nothing. Philbin seems like a guy who would be sympathetic to someone in trouble after losing his own son. Time will tell. But Martin not even trying to go to his coach about it is off putting to me. If your coach does nothing, fine, then leave the team and do what Martin is doing. he skipped a very important step in the process. He also could have gone to his HC very early on when things really started to bother him and had it taken care of, or not. He also coul dhave said me or Richie has to go, trade me or him. There are many things Martin could have done besides collect evidence and then walk away. So far we've only heard about martins actions after leaving- that doesn't mean there were zero actions before leaving though. While RI has already demonstrated behavior that shouldn't be rationalized and is deserving of punishment, JMs actions are still pretty unknown. I'm still curious to hear more about his private meeting in April with philbin (very close to these events). Additionally if he's gone to his position coach, coordinator or many other layers totally absent from the "philbin had no idea til Sunday" claims Edited November 6, 2013 by NoSaint
Prickly Pete Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 (edited) They'd have to have a pretty darn specific relationship for that to be even remotely acceptable to Martin and Martin has given every indication that's not at all the type they had.... So.... "So....", now everybody can just piece it together into a narrative that suits what they want to believe, or what they want to express to others about how THEY feel about bullying, mental illness, how to "be a man", and parents from Harvard? Edited November 6, 2013 by Marauder'sMicro
NoSaint Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 "So....", now everybody can just piece everything together into a narrative that suits what the want to believe, or what they want to express to others about how THEY feel about bullying, mental illness, how to "be a man", and parents from Harvard? Other players confirmed financial abuse of rookies. Incognito was using pretty graphic language towards a teammate. JM showing signs of being upset publicly as early as last years camp on hard knocks. The other vet leaders have essentially said "so what" or "it's tradition" among those to chime in. Incognito was named a player leader so yes I think its relevant when accused of hazing that he's proud to display an I hate rookies message in his locker..... Generally speaking it fits the basics of hazing pretty well both in the stories leading up to JM walking out, and the reaction since. There's nothing that comes out that makes Ritchie's behavior acceptable. So yes, it's making a jump, but I also think it was an institutional problem here with the types of players they get and how they get brought into "the dolphin way"
Prickly Pete Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 (edited) Other players confirmed financial abuse of rookies. Incognito was using pretty graphic language towards a teammate. JM showing signs of being upset publicly as early as last years camp on hard knocks. The other vet leaders have essentially said "so what" or "it's tradition" among those to chime in. Incognito was named a player leader so yes I think its relevant when accused of hazing that he's proud to display an I hate rookies message in his locker..... Generally speaking it fits the basics of hazing pretty well both in the stories leading up to JM walking out, and the reaction since. There's nothing that comes out that makes Ritchie's behavior acceptable. So yes, it's making a jump, but I also think it was an institutional problem here with the types of players they get and how they get brought into "the dolphin way" "Your mother drives a pickle wagon." Edited November 6, 2013 by Marauder'sMicro
HalftimeAdjustment Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 There would still be unquoted sources... I have to wonder what is going on? Who are there veteran leaders? Look at their dang QB... Wonder if the silence has anything to do with this. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/05/report-coaches-wanted-incognito-to-toughen-up-martin/related/
NoSaint Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 (edited) Wonder if the silence has anything to do with this. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/05/report-coaches-wanted-incognito-to-toughen-up-martin/related/ Frankly, not shocking if true, given the way the last 3-4 days of news have unfolded. It does nothing to excuse Richie, but likely ties together most of the loose ends that existed for jboyst into a fairly neat package with perhaps some bows or decorations yet to come. Will the next reveal be in regards to philbin and martins meeting? I wonder if it was right before or right after the voicemails. Edited November 6, 2013 by NoSaint
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