bills44 Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 oooh, I see a juicy Aaron Sorkin movie plot about this. And too bad Stanley Kubrick is dead, so he can't direct it, but they can find a substitute. Who should we cast in it? How about Tom Cruise as the NFLPA investigator, Matthew Modine as Adam Schefter, Jack Nicholson as Philbin and Vincent Donofrio as Martin? "you want me on that line! you need me on that line"
boyst Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 Oh I think it's pretty clear that the Dolphins are really trying to pin this all on Incognito. I don't see how they can succeed though, after they gave him a leadership position and made him one of the faces of their franchise. The simple fact that Incognito was a locker room leader points to a deeper dysfunction on the team. I'm not going to waste any sympathy on Incognito, though. He was enabled by the ineptitude of Dolphins management, but he was still the one taking the actions that hurt Martin (at least as far as we can tell at this point). yes. It will become more clear as the rational minds prevail and time reveals more. Me thinks this is all too common among locker rooms of all levels. It was for every sport I participated in...
Fan in Chicago Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 I'm not going to waste any sympathy on Incognito, though. He was enabled by the ineptitude of Dolphins management, but he was still the one taking the actions that hurt Martin (at least as far as we can tell at this point). Very well said. While the culture and organization may eventually be found to be at fault, I cannot see how Incognito can be absolved of responsibility. Both issues should be dealt with separately, there needs to be no sympathy factor for RI.
boyst Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 I feel sorry for Martin because he's weak, and I have sympathy for weak people who get bullied and don't have what it takes to stand up for themselves, but I also question whether he has the mental toughness to play in the NFL. And while I don't have sympathy for bullies it seems that b/c Martin was too big a kitty to stick up for himself, RI's actions are being amplified and blown out of proportion. I don't like bullies, but I'd wager RI's behavior in this case isn't that much worse than what you'd find in half the locker rooms around the league. this may sum up my personal feelings in this. But it is too sad. I have been bullied enough in my life to have little tolerance for it. Luckily I grew up to be pretty big and tough ... and I am not talking physically. I am talking mentally. I can let almost anything roll off my bqck
BringBackFergy Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 "you want me on that line! you need me on that line"
HalftimeAdjustment Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 How does TO end up in this group? He had a big mouth but did not try to physically or mentally hurt people either on or off the field. I tried but failed to sort of show a sliding scale of badness. I should have put TO on the far right (below Haynesworth). He didn't hurt people but he was perceived as a big enough "jerk" to become toxic to most team through his statements and behavior. Not suggesting TO and OJ should be grouped.
Jauronimo Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 I feel sorry for Martin because he's weak, and I have sympathy for weak people who get bullied and don't have what it takes to stand up for themselves, but I also question whether he has the mental toughness to play in the NFL. And while I don't have sympathy for bullies it seems that b/c Martin was too big a kitty to stick up for himself, RI's actions are being amplified and blown out of proportion. I don't like bullies, but I'd wager RI's behavior in this case isn't that much worse than what you'd find in half the locker rooms around the league. Thats my opinion, more or less. I'd wager this type of behavior goes on in every locker room and most guys can just deal. Richie is a douchebag, but his biggest mistake wasn't hazing, it was failing to recognize when Martin had been pushed too far. If a member of the team quits and points to you as the reason, thats a problem. A PR problem. Bullying is a hot button issue right now. The public isn't interested in nuance, they want action. I would be willing to bet that the Dolphins coaches and execs couldn't care less about what Richie did in terms of his treatment of Martin. Richie will be cut and ultimately black balled because he isn't worth the media scrutiny and the distraction.
uncle flap Posted November 5, 2013 Author Posted November 5, 2013 I feel sorry for Martin because he's weak, and I have sympathy for weak people who get bullied and don't have what it takes to stand up for themselves, but I also question whether he has the mental toughness to play in the NFL. And while I don't have sympathy for bullies it seems that b/c Martin was too big a kitty to stick up for himself, RI's actions are being amplified and blown out of proportion. I don't like bullies, but I'd wager RI's behavior in this case isn't that much worse than what you'd find in half the locker rooms around the league. See, this is what I don't get/take issue with. Even if Martin is a "kitty," I think that makes it worse that he was targeted by RI. I agree that what RI might have done could be somewhat typical for any given locker room (although, I do think he's likely on the extreme end of the spectrum). However, I think what really "amplifies" the egregiousness, is that I think RI knew how hard Martin was taking it, and instead of letting up, or letting Martin know it's all in good fun, he piles on to the extent that Martin decides he needs to leave the team. I suppose it's possible that Martin didn't let on how much it was bothering him, but I don't think that seems to be the case. As a true bully does, RI spotted a weakness and exploited it. Like I said upthread, hazing and the like are meant to bring the players closer, not alienate them. Furthermore, I'd be more understanding of RI's position (and those who file this type of stuff as routine for the NFL), if Martin crumbled during his rookie training camp. But I think RI identified Martin as someone who was on the edge and did everything he can to push him over for a prolonged period of time. I've given scrubs a hard time on teams that I've been on. In high school we even had kids quit over it. It's part of the initiation process. Yes, there is some "weeding out" of the players who can't hack it, but IMO this is far beyond that initiation phase. Especially on a professional level, not just as dumb kids who aren't mature enough to fully grasp the weight of their actions. It's not a matter of locker room culture to me, it's a matter of RI going overboard, regardless of Martin's disposition. Thats my opinion, more or less. I'd wager this type of behavior goes on in every locker room and most guys can just deal. Richie is a douchebag, but his biggest mistake wasn't hazing, it was failing to recognize when Martin had been pushed too far. Exactly.
Captain Caveman Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 this may sum up my personal feelings in this. But it is too sad. I have been bullied enough in my life to have little tolerance for it. Luckily I grew up to be pretty big and tough ... and I am not talking physically. I am talking mentally. I can let almost anything roll off my bqck Sounds like judgement.
bills44 Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 (edited) It's not a matter of locker room culture to me, it's a matter of RI going overboard, regardless of Martin's disposition. Nicely stated, IMO. This pretty much nails it. Still shaking my head over Daddy Incognito's posts/comments. He sounds just as worthless as his son. Edited November 5, 2013 by bills44
dave mcbride Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 (edited) I feel sorry for Martin because he's weak, and I have sympathy for weak people who get bullied and don't have what it takes to stand up for themselves, but I also question whether he has the mental toughness to play in the NFL. And while I don't have sympathy for bullies it seems that b/c Martin was too big a kitty to stick up for himself, RI's actions are being amplified and blown out of proportion. I don't like bullies, but I'd wager RI's behavior in this case isn't that much worse than what you'd find in half the locker rooms around the league. Why do you interpret his actions as "weak" instead of as follows? He went to Harvard Westlake (great high school in LA) and Stanford, where he majored in classics/ancient history. He was apparently very well liked at both places. Then he comes to an NFL franchise where "goon rule" is the order of the day. Perhaps he said the equivalent of take this job and shove it, I ain't workin' here no more. He's obviously a smart guy and has grad/professional school aspirations. He'll do fine in life. Why waste your 20s surrounded by a-holes even if the money is good and you're good at the job? Life's too damn short. One of my wife's colleague's at work started at strong safety at USC and played for a couple of years with the Saints on special teams. He absolutely hates the sport, and won't ever watch a game again (he hasn't watched a game in well over a decade). He was a walk-on for baseball at USC too and says he learned everything good about teamwork from baseball. The point is, the game isn't for everyone, and just because you bail on it doesn't mean that you're weak. Quite often, it means that you're "normal." Edited November 5, 2013 by dave mcbride
Big Turk Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 Both Martin's parents are lawyers...the NFL, Miami Dolphins and Richie Incognito are likely looking at hostile workplace, harrassment and discrimination lawsuits filed against them, potentially with the NFLPA being sued as well...
bills44 Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 Both Martin's parents are lawyers...the NFL, Miami Dolphins and Richie Incognito are likely looking at hostile workplace, harrassment and discrimination lawsuits filed against them, potentially with the NFLPA being sued as well... Harvard-educated, I believe. Maybe Incognito should have chose a fellow piece of **** to pick on.
26CornerBlitz Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 NFL personnel question 'coward' Martin for not challenging Incognito
Jauronimo Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 (edited) See, this is what I don't get/take issue with. Even if Martin is a "kitty," I think that makes it worse that he was targeted by RI. I agree that what RI might have done could be somewhat typical for any given locker room (although, I do think he's likely on the extreme end of the spectrum). However, I think what really "amplifies" the egregiousness, is that I think RI knew how hard Martin was taking it, and instead of letting up, or letting Martin know it's all in good fun, he piles on to the extent that Martin decides he needs to leave the team. I suppose it's possible that Martin didn't let on how much it was bothering him, but I don't think that seems to be the case. As a true bully does, RI spotted a weakness and exploited it. Like I said upthread, hazing and the like are meant to bring the players closer, not alienate them. Furthermore, I'd be more understanding of RI's position (and those who file this type of stuff as routine for the NFL), if Martin crumbled during his rookie training camp. But I think RI identified Martin as someone who was on the edge and did everything he can to push him over for a prolonged period of time. I've given scrubs a hard time on teams that I've been on. In high school we even had kids quit over it. It's part of the initiation process. Yes, there is some "weeding out" of the players who can't hack it, but IMO this is far beyond that initiation phase. Especially on a professional level, not just as dumb kids who aren't mature enough to fully grasp the weight of their actions. Hazing is a touchy issue. I played sports, saw my share of rookie hazing and initiation. I pledged a frat and saw considerably more hazing there. Theres a lot of responsibility involved if you're going to haze another human being. For the guy being hazed, it requires implicit trust that the man hazing you is looking out for you and has your best interest at heart. There needs to be a certain level of base respect. There needs to be boundaries and even then there will still be people that can't hack. As part of a private club, this paradigm can work. As part of a workplace, probably not. Incidents like this are step one toward a zero tolerance policy. The fact that kids die every year trying to buy their friends in the greek systems at our universities means the days were already numbered on the "boys will be boys" locker room culture. A few bad apples were bound to ruin initiation rights, and that leaves me conflicted. On one hand I'm glad I went through what I did and I learned a lot about myself in the process. On the other hand, hazing is a slippery slope and can lead to some tragic outcomes. What to do? Edited November 5, 2013 by Jauronimo
thebandit27 Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 Apologize if this has already been posted, but apparently there's even more fuel for this fire: http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/richie-incognito-racist-video-father-message-board-dwight-howard-andre-iguodala-world-series-of-poker-110513 http://deadspin.com/is-richie-incognitos-dad-blasting-jonathan-martin-on-m-1457997230
nucci Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 There's a big difference in hazing and what is being reported that Incognito has done. This seems to border on constant harassment and abuse.
Big Turk Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 Harvard-educated, I believe. Maybe Incognito should have chose a fellow piece of **** to pick on. Yes, they are in deep, deep **** if they choose to pursue this...just because "stuff like this happens all the time", does not mean its legal or allowed under workplace laws. There is zero chance of deniability, everyone admits that it happens, they have voicemails and texts, etc... Imho, they try to settle so fast it makes your head spin
Peter Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 Why do you interpret his actions as "weak" instead of as follows? He went to Harvard Westlake (great high school in LA) and Stanford, where he majored in classics/ancient history. He was apparently very well liked at both places. Then he comes to an NFL franchise where "goon rule" is the order of the day. Perhaps he said the equivalent of take this job and shove it, I ain't workin' here no more. He's obviously a smart guy and has grad/professional school aspirations. He'll do fine in life. Why waste your 20s surrounded by a-holes even if the money is good and you're good at the job? Life's too damn short. I totally agree with this. Martin comes across as the "stronger" person. RI comes across looking the weak person. Just my two cents.
boyst Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 Sounds like judgement. it is. And I reserve the right to change that. It is just a small part of the way I see this
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