Jonathan Martin AWOL, Incognito suspended

[RuntheDamnBall]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9926888/miami-dolphins-kept-richie-incognito-controlhttp://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9926888/miami-dolphins-kept-richie-incognito-control:

An excerpt -

"Beneath the disgusting details of threats and taunts and racism lies an uncomfortable truth: The NFL needs Richie Incognito more than it needs Jonathan Martin.

Coaches love players like Incognito. They look at guys like Martin, known as soft-spoken and thoughtful while at Stanford, with skepticism. Does he have the killer instinct? Does he care enough? Those questions don't apply to Incognito. Coaches might not want to see him after hours, but they love him on the field. He's indispensable, a tone-setter, the guy who announces your team's presence with a crazed, through-the-whistle style that is prized at every level.

Coaches chuckle among themselves: He might be a horrible human being, but he's our horrible human being. Sociopathic behavior from players at certain positions is not only tolerated but cherished. As long as it stays out of the headlines and the police blotters -- in other words, as long as it's kept in-house -- it provides the kind of toughness you need to compete.

Yes, this is America's game."

'

Plenty of the same kinds of attitudes being shown here.

[BillsfaninMyrtleBeach]

He's not a turd, he's a freaking sociopath.

Yeah he can add that to his resume as well. The bad part is he'll most likely get picked up by a team that doesn't care that he's a moron on and off the field.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Yeah he can add that to his resume as well. The bad part is he'll most likely get picked up by a team that doesn't care that he's a moron on and off the field.

Schiano Man!

[GG]

http://espn.go.com/n...cognito-controlhttp://espn.go.com/n...cognito-control:

An excerpt -

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Plenty of the same kinds of attitudes being shown here.

 

Conrad Dobler vs Mike Williams?

 

Reality of the situation is that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Incognito has been proven to be a major POS, even before this incident. The big knock on Martin before the draft was his mental toughness and dedication to the game.

 

If you take Richie Incognito's particular brand of crazy out of this discussion, everything that's quoted above is correct. It takes a special type of person willing to knock heads with a fellow 300 lb big body for 70 plays each week.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Conrad Dobler vs Mike Williams?

 

Reality of the situation is that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Incognito has been proven to be a major POS, even before this incident. The big knock on Martin before the draft was his mental toughness and dedication to the game.

 

If you take Richie Incognito's particular brand of crazy out of this discussion, everything that's quoted above is correct. It takes a special type of person willing to knock heads with a fellow 300 lb big body for 70 plays each week.

So, maybe Kiko is the ideal genetic type for this brand of person.

[Prickly Pete]

Sometimes loser's at life, make the best football players. What teams really want is someone whose self-esteem and identity, is completely based on success in football.

 

And that can be applied beyond football. I think of some salesmen I know, who if they aren't making a quota are wrecks. My ex (a Countrywide mortgage agent) went to pieces when she didn't TOP the sales chart.

[boyst]

http://espn.go.com/n...cognito-controlhttp://espn.go.com/n...cognito-control:

An excerpt -

'[/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]

Plenty of the same kinds of attitudes being shown here.

and plenty of the exact opposite. Ready to burn Incognito at the stake without question. Both are not healthy viewpoints.

 

Objectionably being able to rationalize situations like this makes me scared for what kind of society we have become where we take face value headlines for granted and easily judge every action on a history or previous similarity with such prejudice.

[RuntheDamnBall]

and plenty of the exact opposite. Ready to burn Incognito at the stake without question. Both are not healthy viewpoints.

 

Objectionably being able to rationalize situations like this makes me scared for what kind of society we have become where we take face value headlines for granted and easily judge every action on a history or previous similarity with such prejudice.

I would think it's pretty rational to view a guy who has been caught on tape threatening and berating a co-worker as unstable and not the best representative of a very public employer. Given that this is not RI's first incident, so to speak, I'm not sure what we're supposed to think. When a guy like Eric Wood doesn't come vigorously to your defense on this kind of stuff and is very measured in his response, I think it also says something - both about the culture and about RI's having crossed a line.

 

I'll agree that people often take headlines at face value but I don't think that's the case here.

[run dat back]

Sometimes loser's at life, make the best football players. What teams really want is someone whose self-esteem and identity, is completely based on success in football.

 

And that can be applied beyond football. I think of some salesmen I know, who if they aren't making a quota are wrecks. My ex (a Countrywide mortgage agent) went to pieces when she didn't TOP the sales chart.

 

"Second prize: a set of steak knives. Third prize: You're fired."

[boyst]

I would think it's pretty rational to view a guy who has been caught on tape threatening and berating a co-worker as unstable and not the best representative of a very public employer. Given that this is not RI's first incident, so to speak, I'm not sure what we're supposed to think. When a guy like Eric Wood doesn't come vigorously to your defense on this kind of stuff and is very measured in his response, I think it also says something - both about the culture and about RI's having crossed a line.

 

I'll agree that people often take headlines at face value but I don't think that's the case here.

I think I am a bit more open minded about this and slow to judge the entire package because we have heard such wild allegations so quickly from so many sources citing many people. Where were these people with these warnings 2 years ago? Where was the warnings on Hernandez? Where were the Fins organizationally that they missed this?

 

As a bit of an aside I will mention that I have seen a few players go Pro and the process involved in vetting them. Talking to team members and coaches, even neighbors and organization/church members. They will interview teachers and even opposing coaches occasionally. My coach in HS was interviewed about Big Ben when he went in the draft since my coach coached him For the NW Ohio all star game. The lengths they go to...and they missed this? I find it hard to imagine. In the NFL guys like Incognito help weed out the weaklings. Such a different world professionally then our pastures and barns we all work in...

[RuntheDamnBall]

I think I am a bit more open minded about this and slow to judge the entire package because we have heard such wild allegations so quickly from so many sources citing many people. Where were these people with these warnings 2 years ago? Where was the warnings on Hernandez? Where were the Fins organizationally that they missed this?

 

As a bit of an aside I will mention that I have seen a few players go Pro and the process involved in vetting them. Talking to team members and coaches, even neighbors and organization/church members. They will interview teachers and even opposing coaches occasionally. My coach in HS was interviewed about Big Ben when he went in the draft since my coach coached him For the NW Ohio all star game. The lengths they go to...and they missed this? I find it hard to imagine. In the NFL guys like Incognito help weed out the weaklings. Such a different world professionally then our pastures and barns we all work in...

Of course it's a different world, but there were warnings two years ago. There were warnings prior to that that caused him to slip in the draft. There were the guy's regular personal foul penalties. There were teammates who kept quiet about their disdain for him.

 

There is a lot of impetus to keep these things in-house for fear of repercussions from other players who adhere to this kind of code. And I'll wager that other players don't like it but keep quiet about it because they know if they do, they can slip by into veteran status and not be subject to it any longer.

 

I just really, strongly hesitate to buy into what you're saying about this particular player and being open-minded about him. He has a long rap sheet and you can fill it out pretty quickly with a Google search.

 

To wit:

http://www.cbssports...ff-draft-boards

 

I encourage you to read this article -- this stuff hasn't just been unearthed, it's just being more widely reported now (stuff from Nebraska and the Rams is toward the bottom of the article)

http://www.grantland...ichie-incognito

[NoSaint]

I think I am a bit more open minded about this and slow to judge the entire package because we have heard such wild allegations so quickly from so many sources citing many people. Where were these people with these warnings 2 years ago? Where was the warnings on Hernandez? Where were the Fins organizationally that they missed this?

 

As a bit of an aside I will mention that I have seen a few players go Pro and the process involved in vetting them. Talking to team members and coaches, even neighbors and organization/church members. They will interview teachers and even opposing coaches occasionally. My coach in HS was interviewed about Big Ben when he went in the draft since my coach coached him For the NW Ohio all star game. The lengths they go to...and they missed this? I find it hard to imagine. In the NFL guys like Incognito help weed out the weaklings. Such a different world professionally then our pastures and barns we all work in...

 

I guess, generally speaking, warning signs a guy is a murderer several times over can be a bit harder to say "see I knew it" with when compared to warning signs a guy is a jerk that isn't a good coworker.

 

Hernandez yelling at welker being made meaningful seems like piling on. Hernandez being questioned in multiple shootings being good warning signs.

 

In this case you have a guy with a record for assualt, kicked off 3 teams mid season in 5 years, time in anger management, and a sign in his locker that he hates rookies --- and of course the words on tape actually being on tape and pretty well inexcusable.

 

I get what your saying and am generally well known for saying "let's wait and see where this goes" but I'm not sure there's that wide a range of stories on what happened or possible outcomes. We almost certainly get more juicy tidbits, but broad strokes it seems fair to say incognito doesn't have a whole lot of claim to benefit of the doubt or a whole lot of explanations available even if he did have an impeccable track record.

Edited November 5, 2013 by NoSaint

[boyst]

Of course it's a different world, but there were warnings two years ago. There were warnings prior to that that caused him to slip in the draft. There were the guy's regular personal foul penalties. There were teammates who kept quiet about their disdain for him.

 

There is a lot of impetus to keep these things in-house for fear of repercussions from other players who adhere to this kind of code. And I'll wager that other players don't like it but keep quiet about it because they know if they do, they can slip by into veteran status and not be subject to it any longer.

 

I just really, strongly hesitate to buy into what you're saying about this particular player and being open-minded about him. He has a long rap sheet and you can fill it out pretty quickly with a Google search.

I know it. I think every team has at least one Ritchie Incognito.

 

That no one made a bigger deal of RI makes me wonder what is wrong with this league and society. They enabled him. I cannot buy in to believing he has actually got worse as he grew up...older.

[Kirby Jackson]

I know it. I think every team has at least one Ritchie Incognito.

 

That no one made a bigger deal of RI makes me wonder what is wrong with this league and society. They enabled him. I cannot buy in to believing he has actually got worse as he grew up...older.

 

This might sound simple but he is just a bad person. He has a history of doing things on and off the field that only a bad person would do. It sounds like his dad is not much different.

[boyst]

I guess, generally speaking, warning signs a guy is a murderer several times over can be a bit harder to say "see I knew it" with when compared to warning signs a guy is a jerk that isn't a good coworker.

 

Hernandez yelling at welker being made meaningful seems like piling on. Hernandez being questioned in multiple shootings being good warning signs.

 

In this case you have a guy with a record for assualt, kicked off 3 teams mid season in 5 years, time in anger management, and a sign in his locker that he hates rookies --- and of course the words on tape actually being on tape and pretty well inexcusable.

 

I get what your saying and am generally well known for saying "let's wait and see where this goes" but I'm not sure there's that wide a range of stories on what happened or possible outcomes. We almost certainly get more juicy tidbits, but broad strokes it seems fair to say incognito doesn't have a whole lot of claim to benefit of the doubt or a whole lot of explanations available even if he did have an impeccable track record.

yeah, I would agree. Some want to call him guilty and throw away the key. Others want decide his level of guilt bases on various factors. RI had no reason to behave the way he did, and that's what matters.

 

This might sound simple but he is just a bad person. He has a history of doing things on and off the field that only a bad person would do. It sounds like his dad is not much different.

sounds like isn't for sure. A lot of our dads would go to great lengths to defend us. Again, what we know of him is a bad person but that's a matter of opinion. Bad varies in severity.

[Kirby Jackson]

sounds like isn't for sure. A lot of our dads would go to great lengths to defend us. Again, what we know of him is a bad person but that's a matter of opinion. Bad varies in severity.

 

I feel pretty comfortable calling Richie Incognito a bad person. I am not usually the pitchfork guy when someone makes a mistake but his track record speaks for itself. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, fool me 476 times and you are Richie Incognito.

[NoSaint]

yeah, I would agree. Some want to call him guilty and throw away the key. Others want decide his level of guilt bases on various factors. RI had no reason to behave the way he did, and that's what matters.

 

sounds like isn't for sure. A lot of our dads would go to great lengths to defend us. Again, what we know of him is a bad person but that's a matter of opinion. Bad varies in severity.

 

Yea, I won't claim to know whether he's a 7 or a 9 on a scale of 1 to 10 severity but I think it's safe to say he's too high to be on a locker room leadership council, and too high to be a vet role model on a winning team, and high enough I'll be surprised if he's not in jail within a decade of retiring for some type of assault or alcohol related event. I don't know him personally but I think it's no coincidence that despite being a productive player he finds himself on losing teams and in losing life situations.

 

Hopefully this is a slap in the head for him as his playing days are numbered and if he's too extreme for locker rooms, the dudes going to struggle badly adjusting to the real world. Especially without a good family support system it seems. I wonder what he aspires to do post football on a purely curious level

Edited November 5, 2013 by NoSaint

[uncle flap]

I feel pretty comfortable calling Richie Incognito a bad person. I am not usually the pitchfork guy when someone makes a mistake but his track record speaks for itself. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, fool me 476 times and you are Richie Incognito.

 

I was just about to post something similar, but you nailed it.

 

While I think there is *some* validity to the idea that Martin's personality/temperament "invited" the bullying, that only makes it worse in my mind.

 

What I'm trying to say is that even if you want to boil it down to Martin simply isn't "tough" enough to deal with a jerk like Incognito, the fact that Incognito seemingly enjoyed picking on a guy who is unable or unwilling to defend himself makes it that much worse.

 

As it's been said, there are likely jerks and bullys in every locker room. But it's one thing to tease a rookie or a young guy who can take it. Maybe Martin did a good job of not outwardly showing how much the teasing bothered him, but I have a hunch that Incognito knew how uncomfortable he was making Martin, and that just made him that much more of a punching bag.

 

IMO, that's what makes Incognito such a dirtbag. Not that he bullied Martin in the first place, but that he continued to do so when he knew damn well Martin wasn't going to or willing to fight back. Whether or not that's a fault of Martin's can be debated but that doesn't excuse such mean-spirited behavior. I know hazing and stuff is commonplace, but it's meant as an initiation process and an exercise in team-building. From what is alleged, it sure doesn't seem like that to me.

 

Maybe Martin is "weak" or suffers from anxiety or whatever. Maybe he's not cut out for the stress of playing professional football. Maybe he overreacted. I'm just not buying, "hey, it's football," as an excuse for Incognito's pattern of behavior toward Martin, if we are to believe everything that's being reported.

Edited November 5, 2013 by uncle flap

[San Jose Bills Fan]

So this incident isn't about Martin being clinically depressed after all? There goes the first 7 pages of this thread. Talk about jumping to conclusions.

 

It's reported that Martin went to a hospital after leaving the Dolphins facility.

 

He was placed on the Non-Football Injury List.

 

There was/is/continues to be a reasonable basis for talking about Martin's mental health.

 

Was it s*** or was it a more disgusting three letter word?

 

What does it matter?

 

FWIW, I don't believe this has been posted yet:

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/04/dungy-says-colts-had-red-flag-on-incognito/

 

"During last night’s edition of Football Night in America on NBC, former Patriots V.P. of player personnel and Chiefs G.M. Scott Pioli (who should be getting some credit for the talent he left for the new 9-0 regime in Kansas City) told Dan Patrick, ”I didn’t want [incognito] coming out [of college], and I don’t want him now.”

 

Former Bucs and Colts coach Tony Dungy echoed that sentiment earlier in the hour on The Dan Patrick Show. Dungy explained that, when Incognito entered the draft in 2005, the Colts had him on the “DNDC” list, which means “do not draft because of character.”

[HalftimeAdjustment]

Bad varies in severity.

 

This is true. Lawrence Phillips has Incognito beat. So does OJ Simpson. And Jovan Belcher... I could go on. However, Incognito may have the edge on, for example, Terell Owens or Albert Haynesworth.