boyst Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 (edited) I had wanted to engage a poster on the thread who usually does not get in to this type of murky issue because they often have insightful opinions. I had stated mine to them summed up a little bit - using some judgements and thoughts (sorry captain)... but here is what it is for those keeping track of my diary. "I think it's been summed up in all I said. A fragile guy who is not cut out emotionally for the lifestyle of professional football that is akin to a player being too short, too thin, too physically weak. However, being that it is a professional field - a business - a corporation - a job... he should not have to face discretion by colleagues for his short comings - if that is what they can be called. No one on that team had any business treating him any differently in order to toughen him up. That is left to his employers, his boss, and if by some extension Incognito or other captains were delegated to assist in this role it does not mitigate any individuals role in this situation. Incognito is still guilty of bad judgement, poor behavior, being an a-hole, and more - but I cannot deem his actions as unprofessional for his field. This is common place it seems for locker rooms of all levels. My experiences hold that to be true. The entirely story is what I have thought it was from the beginning - cultural. We hold these athletes to the highest regard and forget to realize they are human. Basic behaviors in males are very much tolerated in football; tribalism, aggression, and other Neanderthal-ic behavior is vital to the game. To remove this fact is akin to calling a roughing the passer penalty against a player already in the midst of a sack. To turn this behavior on/off when on the field to the locker room seems impossible. Sadly, there is no right or wrong answer to what the situation is because it is so murky with the stories coming out. However, the clearest and most distinguishable truth is that a man was treated unprofessionally in a professional environment. Finding who is guilty and who is not will not be easy and while that is going to happen there will be too much finger pointing to defer guilt and assign more guilt. Everyone is guilty who has partook in this behavior and like the entire world bullying is everywhere." assuming that's not sarcasm, which is impossible to tell without emoticons or any other unique punctuation, thank you....and all I try to do is contribute to the conversation / debate without it regressing to juvenile tactics and hollow statements....i appreciate every post that is done with good intentions and communicated with even a modicum of intelligence, but sometimes I think despite requiring the act of typing, not all of us think before we post...but again, olive branch accepted your post was done with good effort and thoughtful dictation. not trying to use fancy words just trying to string together what i am trying to say. i am not trying to be a jerk and insult you by simply saying something along the lines of "what you said is something i disagree with, i don't think you understood what i was saying and have been saying so if you haven't yet i'm not going to keep repeating myself...because its not worth it..." Instead I will use an old TBDism from some really old grumpy dude who posted here a while to sum up my response. your post was thought out and well represented and i appreciate that you took the time to respond, which is why i took the time to acknowledge it. i just had no ability to touch on your response that would be relevant to what you had said that i had already not said...if that makes sense...it probably doesn't. either way, maybe you've not read enough of the garbage i post. unless it's about football x's and o's it is useless opinions that i blurt out while taking a moment from whatever i am doing to waste time thinking someone actually reads what i say. i also do not like caps. Edited November 8, 2013 by jboyst62 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBuff423 Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 I had wanted to engage a poster on the thread who usually does not get in to this type of murky issue because they often have insightful opinions. I had stated mine to them summed up a little bit - using some judgements and thoughts (sorry captain)... but here is what it is for those keeping track of my diary. "I think it's been summed up in all I said. A fragile guy who is not cut out emotionally for the lifestyle of professional football that is akin to a player being too short, too thin, too physically weak. However, being that it is a professional field - a business - a corporation - a job... he should not have to face discretion by colleagues for his short comings - if that is what they can be called. No one on that team had any business treating him any differently in order to toughen him up. That is left to his employers, his boss, and if by some extension Incognito or other captains were delegated to assist in this role it does not mitigate any individuals role in this situation. Incognito is still guilty of bad judgement, poor behavior, being an a-hole, and more - but I cannot deem his actions as unprofessional for his field. This is common place it seems for locker rooms of all levels. My experiences hold that to be true. The entirely story is what I have thought it was from the beginning - cultural. We hold these athletes to the highest regard and forget to realize they are human. Basic behaviors in males are very much tolerated in football; tribalism, aggression, and other Neanderthal-ic behavior is vital to the game. To remove this fact is akin to calling a roughing the passer penalty against a player already in the midst of a sack. To turn this behavior on/off when on the field to the locker room seems impossible. Sadly, there is no right or wrong answer to what the situation is because it is so murky with the stories coming out. However, the clearest and most distinguishable truth is that a man was treated unprofessionally in a professional environment. Finding who is guilty and who is not will not be easy and while that is going to happen there will be too much finger pointing to defer guilt and assign more guilt. Everyone is guilty who has partook in this behavior and like the entire world bullying is everywhere." your post was done with good effort and thoughtful dictation. not trying to use fancy words just trying to string together what i am trying to say. i am not trying to be a jerk and insult you by simply saying something along the lines of "what you said is something i disagree with, i don't think you understood what i was saying and have been saying so if you haven't yet i'm not going to keep repeating myself...because its not worth it..." Instead I will use an old TBDism from some really old grumpy dude who posted here a while to sum up my response. your post was thought out and well represented and i appreciate that you took the time to respond, which is why i took the time to acknowledge it. i just had no ability to touch on your response that would be relevant to what you had said that i had already not said...if that makes sense...it probably doesn't. either way, maybe you've not read enough of the garbage i post. unless it's about football x's and o's it is useless opinions that i blurt out while taking a moment from whatever i am doing to waste time thinking someone actually reads what i say. i also do not like caps. Fair enough, I'm perfectly comfortable living in a world where we can "agree to disagree" and think the world is actually a better place for it...no harm, no foul...and thank you for taking the time to respond. In other news, Incognito is an a-hole (as you so aptly stated), Miami organization is a mess, "hazing" is too lose a term for what occurred, and the other men in the locker-room should have done more as well...not to mention that Martin is probably not cut-out for handling this type of stress, although it could also be fair to say he shouldn't have to...and the normal ball-breaking is good stuff amongnst men, there is a line in it all and i think we all agree R.I crossed it...but thanks again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simpleman Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Whitlock chimes in. Really great and probably controversial article. http://espn.go.com/n...d-led-incognito Great article. Football is a business. And those that work in that business should expect to be treated a civilized human being, not a prison inmate. What happens on the field is the game, the rest is someones life who is just working to make a living . Well said! Big men who think like little boy bullies have no place in our civilized modern world. After reading some of the comments by other NFL players in the league, it's clear that the Dolphins locker room isn't a normal locker room. The Dolphins' vets probably think it is because that's what they know, but it's not, especially if Incognito is in charge. You put the cerebral and maybe sensitive Martin in just about any other locker room--especially one with a veteran coach and QB-- this doesn't happen. For example, can you imagine something like this happening on a team that has Peyton Manning? Agree, I think a Peyton Manning would stand up and say this is not happening on my team, not now, not ever.I will retire before I stand by and allow this to happen. And he would mean it. That is a intelligent honest leader with class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Sometimes he goes a little overboard, but I really like Whitlock. It's kinda of embarassing that some people blame Martin for this. The world needs more people like Martin and less Incognito's. In certain schools, kids get called a sell out for staying out of trouble and doing their work. It's beyond sad and it speaks to the lack of leadership in Miami. This won't happen here. We have legit leaders on this team. Bring Martin in and groom him to be the RT of the future. He really is an inspiration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 He really is an inspiration. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgXw9YHpk1M She was so sexy back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 She was so sexy back then. I'd still hit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 I'd still hit it. what's the over/under on your next ban? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubs Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Whitlock chimes in. Really great and probably controversial article. http://espn.go.com/n...d-led-incognito I just read this article and my first thought was to post it here. Glad you did. It's an incredible article and I would encourage everyone to read it. It's very refreshing to see someone actually dig into what is really going on, as opposed to simply throwing out 140 characters and calling it a day. I really like Whitlock and was disappointed when he joined the Dark Side at ESPN, but as long as he keeps writing articles in the same insightful and courageous way, I'll be happy. I don't always agree with him, but certainly respect the fact that he says what he believe, is intelligent, and clearly thinks through issues rather than try to make his name through quantity. Good stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills44 Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Anyone remember this: http://deadspin.com/nfl-hazing-victim-incognito-was-a-scumbag-and-locke-1460764880/@barryap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 @EyeOnNFL Richie Incognito lands in L.A., declines comment why he's there http://cbsprt.co/17dCLUG via @cbssports Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Did you read the first comment to that article? Crude, but kinda funny: "He went to the West Coast to sh*t in Jonathan's mouth." Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the NFL investigator is conducting interviews out there of both Martin and Incognito, and there may also be a mediation of some kind. It's in the NFL and Dolphins' best interests to try to figure out a way to reconcile everyone as best as they can. Makes sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Tasteless IMO: @YahooSports_NFL Spirit Airlines says you can ‘fly incognito,’ urges not to be ‘bullied by high prices’ http://yhoo.it/17JqsoV #NFL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 The story of the college teammate walking out - just sounds so very familiar. As does the quote: "Limbaugh loved football because of the physicality, because of the camaraderie. He was a quiet guy who was Academic All-Big 12. Incognito used to push his buttons, used to taunt him, and he kept doing it because Limbaugh refused to fight back. Anything that could get under Limbaugh's skin, Incognito would do it. (..........) Although leaving a practice like that would normally be a punishable offense, Limbaugh said, he did not get in trouble that day. Apparently, the coaches knew he had endured enough." I bet people on the team at the time would have described them as friends. More like "frenemies" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 http://www.cnn.com/2...phins-bullying/ Tannehill: RI saw Martin as a little brother. Bwa, ha, ha, I'll just bet he did. In the classic "big brother" sense of feeling entitled to taunt, pick on, abuse, and otherwise bug the crap out of "little bro" and then spin about and be kind and helpful enough to earn some hero-worship.....but boy howdy, you mess with my 'lil 'lil and I'll had your a** to you, you muthaf***er, ain't nobody messin' with mi boi. Sounds like in college, Incognito found one "little bro" who was made miserable by it, and now in Miami he found another. I think the overall positive towards Incognito piece spelled it out, Incognito is tone-deaf to being about to tell when someone really can't take it and doesn't have the right moves to shut him down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 This is seriously scary. Imagine being a rookie--perhaps pretty cerebral, shy, and sensitive. You come into this locker room, and have a guy calling you the "n-word," laughing maniacally as he threatens your family, forcing you to go strip clubs when you think it is inappropriate, making you pay thousands of dollars, physically assualting you, and rides you to try to toughen you up. This guy also plays right next to you on every snap; is the leader of the team; and is considered to be dirty and crazy by most of the league. I think Martin probably did the smart thing--and tried to laugh it off and live with it as much as possible, until it just got to be too much to handle. This is, perhaps, a very appropriate perspective. As a rookie, he expected a lot of the language and behavior. He may have thought it was a little over the top, but being a rookie he figured it was all part of the "ritual". But then, it continued into his 2nd year. So what do you do now? He's under contract. The guy giving him the most trouble is a captain and has full support of the coaches. What can he do, other than try to laugh it off and hope they move on to other players? Eventually, he did all he felt he could... just quit. This whole situation just screams lack of leadership. The team put Incognito in a position of leadership and that decision, in and of itself, tells you all you need to know about the team and the lack of leaders in the locker room. Stevie Johnson said it the other day, you have fun but you also have to have respect. In the Dolphin locker room there seems to be no respect for other players, for the team, for the colors on their jerseys. You guys speak for me. Whitlock chimes in. Really great and probably controversial article. http://espn.go.com/n...d-led-incognito Ah yes. The Grand Theft Autoing of America. It really is sad. I love NFL football but it's definitely a world in which intelligence is a liability and savagery is a virtue. Richie Incognito is a person who can be admired for one thing alone: his valor and competitiveness in a violent sport. As others have said, if there was no such thing as football he might not fit into this world. Luckily for Incognito there are enough stupid, unthinking, and unsophisticated people in the world of football to sustain his behavior in a way in which it almost seems normal. However that he could be tabbed as a leader by an NFL team is incomprehensible. It's one thing for an NFL team to tolerate a certain degree of necessary savagery. It's an entirely different thing for them to hold it up as the greatest good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 (edited) just that this whole story is full of a lot of odd behavior. If someone is attacking me with words then I am not going to just show my parents at some point or my employer. That's just one small part. It is a very odd story. Where was the rest of the team? Did Martin make this a big deal and drama over nothing?? "He was high on intellectualism. I've never been there but the brochure looks nice..." 1) quiet, soft-spoken guy isn't given to the trash talk and crap dealing common to some (not all) locker rooms. response with faint smile and laughter to show no hard feelings - he knows it goes with the territory, but it's just not his thing. 2) most guys realize that pushing it further isn't going to get anywhere - qssg just doesn't bond that way 3) some guys can't realize. Their realizing gene got mutated. By all accounts, Incognito is "that guy". 4)"that guy" will keep going and going like the Energizer bunny, pushing things further and further and more and more outrageous to get a response. 5) qssg will keep smiling and laughing and trying to be friends thata way, even as "that guy" becomes more and more outrageous and it's getting to be too much 6) rest of the team sees the smiling and laughing and trying to be friends, and concludes while "that guy" is really taking it to an extreme, "that guy" and qssg are really OK, no need for them to step in ('cuz he wouldn't be smiling and laughing if he weren't OK, right?) 7) meanwhile, qssg will take it until he just can't. Going postal would damage his fundamental self, so when he can't take anymore, he bails I don't believe most successful teams would "pull the rip-cord on a known nut-case" (ie give Incognito or his ilk free rein and a recognized leader position). I don't believe most qssg's would confront "that guy" or if they did, that it would end successfully. "That guy" is too mutated to respond to the sort of words qssg would be able to use. He's programmed to respond only to an "in kind" crap-meets-crap kind of reaction. So if the coach is "get outta here, handle it yourself", that's what qssg does, only by his lights which, as we've noticed, are a little bit different Edited November 9, 2013 by Hopeful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 (edited) Sometimes he goes a little overboard, but I really like Whitlock. It's kinda of embarassing that some people blame Martin for this. The world needs more people like Martin and less Incognito's. In certain schools, kids get called a sell out for staying out of trouble and doing their work. It's beyond sad and it speaks to the lack of leadership in Miami. This won't happen here. We have legit leaders on this team. Bring Martin in and groom him to be the RT of the future. here in our own community, another example how society treats so called "snitches" and almost admires thugs: It's nearly impossible to fathom that this really happened: At least three teachers at Cheektowaga Central High School kept up a clearly inappropriate personal relationship with a student who had been charged with murder. Two of the teachers joined in cellphone calls from jail, that interrupted classes, and one told the incarcerated student that a student snitch, whom she named, might testify against him. The third worked part time at the Erie County Holding Center and kept the defendant informed of events at school and in the Holding Center, where one of his relatives was also jailed. Cheektowaga police said their investigation was hindered by a lack of cooperation from potential witnesses. That's no wonder, considering that a teacher was identifying at least one of those witnesses, making the student vulnerable to possible retaliation. The student identified by the teacher did not testify at the trial. http://www.buffalonews.com/opinion/buffalo-news-editorials/teachers-who-value-suspects-over-law-enforcement-have-no-business-keeping-their-jobs-20131107 Edited November 9, 2013 by papazoid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I think that Jonathan Martin's parents should go to Richie Incognito's house to tell his parents that their son has been bullying Jonathan. It always works in sitcoms or at the very least hilarity ensues.... Or else Martin's Dad should teach him how to box so he could punch out the bully, like Peter did on the Brady Bunch. You'd be surprised about some places. Having a daughter and seeing women treated like this makes me just want to club this guy in the junk repeatedly, even though that is no way to solve an issue. He's a sociopath. It makes me want to raise my daughter to not be golf tournament eye candy. There will allows be dirt bags, a father's job is to teach his daughter to recognize and avoid them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsPride12 Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Or else Martin's Dad should teach him how to box so he could punch out the bully, like Peter did on the Brady Bunch. It makes me want to raise my daughter to not be golf tournament eye candy. There will allows be dirt bags, a father's job is to teach his daughter to recognize and avoid them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Or else Martin's Dad should teach him how to box so he could punch out the bully, like Peter did on the Brady Bunch. It makes me want to raise my daughter to not be golf tournament eye candy. There will allows be dirt bags, a father's job is to teach his daughter to recognize and avoid them. Can't disagree. And it's a father's job to teach his boys not to be, enable or associate with dirtbags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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