RuntheDamnBall Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 Scouts measure arm strength on how well a QB can throw the deep out (15-20 yds) from standing still in the pocket. They clock the time from the set position (right before he begins his motion) to the time when the ball reaches his target. This means both the throwing motion (or release) is combined with velocity to estimate arm strength. Most fans erroneously associate arm strength with how far a QB can throw the bomb (Hey man I seen Fitz throw the ball 50+ yards!!), but every NFL QB can unload a 50+ yd Hail Mary if they rear back and step into it. For reference, a 15-20 yd sideline out will have to travel ~35 yds if thrown from the pocket, and it typically has to come in at a low trajectory i.e. "on a rope." Not an easy throw to make, and on the rare attempts by Fitz, you were left holding your breath as that ball hung in the air for what felt like hours. Marino was probably the best I've ever seen at throwing the deep out, and he made it look as effortless as snapping his fingers. One of the reasons the Jets have our number is because Rex Ryan knows we can't make that throw. They completely take away the middle of the field and sit back and dare us to throw the middle and deep outs into man coverage. Well... we couldn't make that throw last time because the line had made it to the QB before we had the chance. When there wasn't pressure, there was terrific coverage. Hopefully next time it's a little bit different.
reddogblitz Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 Which would be the correct assessment if your veteran QB was playing. But if you have a undrafted rookie in his first ever start, you simply don't put him in the position of having to make a quick read/throw in traffic because of the increased risk of something bad happening. If they run the ball the worse case is a FG and a 10 point lead when the defense is shutting down everything KC tries. It's about situational awareness and the coaching staff had none on that play. And it cost Buffalo the game. Amen. I don't know who made the 3rd down call, but, IMO, it's grasping at straws to hold Marrone responsible for a bad play call. Coach Marrone is the HC. It's his responsibility. The buck stops with him. Coach Gailey never made a defensive call the whole time he was here. He was HC. He got fired for it. It was his responsibility. Same goes for Coach Marrone. Team screws up, it's his fault. He even says so himself.
reddogblitz Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 It is not their fault Tuel sucks. Really? As Judge Judy would say, "they picked him."
MDH Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 EJ threw "only 54 mph" at the combine but I've already seen him make throws which I haven't seen a Bills QB make in a few decades. What's that you say? Radar gun readings at the combine? It's true. I've posted this before and I'll post it again. Average radar gun readings for every QB who has thrown at the combine since 2008: http://blogs.ourlads...bine-2008-2012/ Yeah, I'm going to say I question how much those radar gun readings mean when Dalton threw a 56mph ball and Falcco 55. Anybody who has watched the QBs can see who easily has the stronger arm. Hell, Flacco might have the strongest arm in the NFL.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 Yeah, I'm going to say I question how much those radar gun readings mean when Dalton threw a 56mph ball and Falcco 55. Anybody who has watched the QBs can see who easily has the stronger arm. Hell, Flacco might have the strongest arm in the NFL. Thus my point about being able to flick the ball effortlessly.
K-9 Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 I agree that Tuel was disappointing in the preseason game against the Redskins. I realize Tuel is more likely to fail than to succeed. But I want to see him given a fair shake and accurately evaluated anyway. As for the arm strength thing: you can generally use a 40 yard dash to quantify how fast a guy is. Or agility drills to put a number on how agile a guy is. But while the 20 yard out seems like it would give scouts a general idea of a QB's arm strength, I don't think it would allow them to quantify that arm strength the way that a 40 yard dash quantifies foot speed. Bill from NYC also brought up a good point about how a throw in a straight line is often better than a rainbow. Maybe they could do two arm strength tests. Test 1 would consist of throwing the ball as far as possible. Test 2 would consist of throwing the ball as far as possible, in a long building with a 13 foot roof. I'm seeing the blurring of the lines between arm strength and touch. But whatever. Perhaps you can be the first to sell that long building with a 13 foot roof to the NFL, scouting consortiums, etc. Good luck. GO BILLS!!!
Cash Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 I agree that Tuel was disappointing in the preseason game against the Redskins. I realize Tuel is more likely to fail than to succeed. But I want to see him given a fair shake and accurately evaluated anyway. As for the arm strength thing: you can generally use a 40 yard dash to quantify how fast a guy is. Or agility drills to put a number on how agile a guy is. But while the 20 yard out seems like it would give scouts a general idea of a QB's arm strength, I don't think it would allow them to quantify that arm strength the way that a 40 yard dash quantifies foot speed. Bill from NYC also brought up a good point about how a throw in a straight line is often better than a rainbow. Maybe they could do two arm strength tests. Test 1 would consist of throwing the ball as far as possible. Test 2 would consist of throwing the ball as far as possible, in a long building with a 13 foot roof. Conversely, there are times when the rainbow is better served, most typically on deep bombs. EJ's long ball accuracy has not been up to snuff thus far, and one of the main reasons IMO is because he's been throwing too flat of a ball. Makes it harder for receivers to adjust. Good for him that he can throw a laser-type pass 40-50 yards, but those are less likely to connect. Tuel's weak arm requires him to step up and huck it at about a 45-degree angle to throw a bomb, which worked out in the case of the Goodwin throw. (And failed miserably on the incompletion to Graham a couple plays earlier -- that throw was probably 10 full yards underthrown and fluttered badly.) Lewis has shown a pretty good touch on deep balls so far, which I love. Overall, I'll take the strong-armed QB and try to improve his technique on the deep throws over a guy with marginal physical tools.
Orton's Arm Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 I'm seeing the blurring of the lines between arm strength and touch. But whatever. Perhaps you can be the first to sell that long building with a 13 foot roof to the NFL, scouting consortiums, etc. Good luck. GO BILLS!!! How am I blurring arm strength and touch? > Perhaps you can be the first to sell that long building with a 13 foot roof to the NFL, scouting consortiums, etc. Good luck. There are a number of things NFL teams could be doing better/differently than they are. Existing methods of measuring arm strength are probably reasonably good. I don't know how many (if any) NFL teams would be willing to experiment with a better way of measuring arm strength when a reasonably good, tried and true method is already in place. You're probably already familiar with what I'm about to write. But for those who are not: if there's a 13 foot roof over a QB's head, the only way he can make his throws longer is by throwing the ball harder, on a rope. I don't think a guy like Fitz would do very well with that 13 foot roof over his head; because he wouldn't be able to use rainbow throws to compensate for his inability to throw on a rope.
Matt in KC Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 How am I blurring arm strength and touch? > Perhaps you can be the first to sell that long building with a 13 foot roof to the NFL, scouting consortiums, etc. Good luck. There are a number of things NFL teams could be doing better/differently than they are. Existing methods of measuring arm strength are probably reasonably good. I don't know how many (if any) NFL teams would be willing to experiment with a better way of measuring arm strength when a reasonably good, tried and true method is already in place. You're probably already familiar with what I'm about to write. But for those who are not: if there's a 13 foot roof over a QB's head, the only way he can make his throws longer is by throwing the ball harder, on a rope. I don't think a guy like Fitz would do very well with that 13 foot roof over his head; because he wouldn't be able to use rainbow throws to compensate for his inability to throw on a rope. ...or with a lower release point. This fancy new test might well identify some amazing side-arm ball-slingers!
MDH Posted November 8, 2013 Posted November 8, 2013 You're probably already familiar with what I'm about to write. But for those who are not: if there's a 13 foot roof over a QB's head, the only way he can make his throws longer is by throwing the ball harder, on a rope. I don't think a guy like Fitz would do very well with that 13 foot roof over his head; because he wouldn't be able to use rainbow throws to compensate for his inability to throw on a rope. Why is 13 feet the magic number?
Orton's Arm Posted November 8, 2013 Posted November 8, 2013 Why is 13 feet the magic number? It seemed like a good idea at the time. If anyone has any better suggestions, my ears are open.
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