thebandit27 Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 Maybe so - but that's not what you spend a first round pick on. Drayton Florence could give you that kind of production. Again, it's hopefully an abberation - it was by far the worst I've seen Gilmore play, and I have every reason to think it was a fluke. But let's not disguise it as a good or even acceptable performance. The only reason Bowe didn't hurt us was that Alex Smith was throwing him the ball. You can't afford to play cornerback like that most weeks. Again, I agree with the bold. I'm as big a Gilmore fan as there is, and he undoubtedly had his worst game since the Jets opener last year. I have no doubt he'll bounce back, as he has before.
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 Maybe so - but that's not what you spend a first round pick on. Drayton Florence could give you that kind of production. Again, it's hopefully an abberation - it was by far the worst I've seen Gilmore play, and I have every reason to think it was a fluke. But let's not disguise it as a good or even acceptable performance. The only reason Bowe didn't hurt us was that Alex Smith was throwing him the ball. You can't afford to play cornerback like that most weeks. The worst he ever played and he allowed less than 70 yards and less than 10 yards a catch. Congrats, you basically said Gilmore has to be Deion Sanders. Fact: if Gilmore didn't allow those 67 yards, the Bills win. He is killing this team!
34-78-83 Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 The worst he ever played and he allowed less than 70 yards and less than 10 yards a catch. Congrats, you basically said Gilmore has to be Deion Sanders. Fact: if Gilmore didn't allow those 67 yards, the Bills win. He is killing this team! you don't get it. He needs to shut everyone down, bar none. He was a 1st round pick afterall! ............... Does anyone recall Bruce Smith vs. Richmond Webb? Just sayin'
MDH Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 you don't get it. He needs to shut everyone down, bar none. He was a 1st round pick afterall! ............... No kidding. He has to be the best CB ever apparently.
thebandit27 Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 The worst he ever played and he allowed less than 70 yards and less than 10 yards a catch. Congrats, you basically said Gilmore has to be Deion Sanders. Fact: if Gilmore didn't allow those 67 yards, the Bills win. He is killing this team! you don't get it. He needs to shut everyone down, bar none. He was a 1st round pick afterall! ............... Does anyone recall Bruce Smith vs. Richmond Webb? Just sayin' Guys, you are straw-man arguing here; that's not what Coach Tuesday said at all. He simply said that Gilmore needs to be better than that, and even said that he normally is better than that. As I've said, I'm as staunch a supporter of Gilmore as there is, and i completely agree with Coach on this one.
34-78-83 Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 Guys, you are straw-man arguing here; that's not what Coach Tuesday said at all. He simply said that Gilmore needs to be better than that, and even said that he normally is better than that. As I've said, I'm as staunch a supporter of Gilmore as there is, and i completely agree with Coach on this one. It's not Coach Tuesday I was specifically responding to as his point overall is accurate. It's all the posters who have unrealistic ideas of what a good/ great player is, and those who forget that there is another NFL player across the way from the player in question.
buffaloboyinATL Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 Everyone not named Jeff Tuel played pretty well today. Did Chandler and Easly change their names to Tuel?
Orton's Arm Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 Two things: First, Marrone doesn't call offensive plays, Hackett does. And second, a run was called and Tuel correctly audibled out of it to a pass when KC showed they were bringing everybody. And that makes me wonder if instead of looking to hit Graham underneath, Tuel finds a wide open Stevie Johnson in the end zone and the Bills go up 17-3, is it still a bad call? Does execution not matter? Good post. If the defense is selling out against the run and daring you to beat them with the pass, the correct decision is to pass. Unfortunately, the Bills had a rookie QB in his first NFL start. Tuel made a rookie mistake on that play; and the Bills got burned. Even though the pick-6 was a terrible read, I felt Tuel's overall body of work was much stronger in the Chiefs game than it had been in the Browns game. If Tuel continues to improve, I'd like to see him on the roster for a long time.
Bill from NYC Posted November 6, 2013 Author Posted November 6, 2013 Even though the pick-6 was a terrible read, I felt Tuel's overall body of work was much stronger in the Chiefs game than it had been in the Browns game. If Tuel continues to improve, I'd like to see him on the roster for a long time. Oddly enough, it seems as if you and I have reversed positions on qb play. Imo it is now SUCH a qb driven league, there appears to be little place for a qb with such limited arm strength. We shall see.
Orton's Arm Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 Oddly enough, it seems as if you and I have reversed positions on qb play. Imo it is now SUCH a qb driven league, there appears to be little place for a qb with such limited arm strength. We shall see. Any backup QB is going to have flaws. If he didn't, he wouldn't be a backup. Choosing a backup QB is a matter of choosing a guy whose flaws are least bad; or else finding a guy with the best offsetting strengths. During the preseason, my impression of Tuel was that he was more accurate than Fitz and had better physical tuels. Obviously Tuel has looked worse in the regular season than the preseason. But if my preseason impression of Tuel is correct--if he is indeed more accurate, faster, and stronger-armed than Fitz--then Tuel has the potential to be a very solid backup. Of course, he'd also need to do a respectable job of handling the mental side of the game. That pick-6 is a perfect example of a non-respectable job of handling the mental aspects of the game! It's something he'll have to correct if he's going to make it in this league even as a backup. As an aside, I wish they gave QBs an arm strength test. To achieve this, they'd tell the QB to throw the ball as far as he could. They'd give him five throws; and whichever throw was his best one would become his arm strength measurement. That way, we could talk about QB X as a 55 yard guy; or QB Y as a 65 yard guy. Better to have a hard and fast measurement than to go by subjective impressions.
maddenboy Posted November 6, 2013 Posted November 6, 2013 I think an Arm Strength measurement should also include velocity. Like with a radar gun. Hell, I could probably throw it 70 yards too. If I lobbed it in the air like a punt. Which would be intercepted 10/10 times.
K-9 Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 Any backup QB is going to have flaws. If he didn't, he wouldn't be a backup. Choosing a backup QB is a matter of choosing a guy whose flaws are least bad; or else finding a guy with the best offsetting strengths. During the preseason, my impression of Tuel was that he was more accurate than Fitz and had better physical tuels. Obviously Tuel has looked worse in the regular season than the preseason. But if my preseason impression of Tuel is correct--if he is indeed more accurate, faster, and stronger-armed than Fitz--then Tuel has the potential to be a very solid backup. Of course, he'd also need to do a respectable job of handling the mental side of the game. That pick-6 is a perfect example of a non-respectable job of handling the mental aspects of the game! It's something he'll have to correct if he's going to make it in this league even as a backup. As an aside, I wish they gave QBs an arm strength test. To achieve this, they'd tell the QB to throw the ball as far as he could. They'd give him five throws; and whichever throw was his best one would become his arm strength measurement. That way, we could talk about QB X as a 55 yard guy; or QB Y as a 65 yard guy. Better to have a hard and fast measurement than to go by subjective impressions. You may want to recheck Tuel's pre-season when he wasn't playing 3rd and 4th stringers and guys no longer in the league like he was against the Colts. In the most important pre-season game, against the Redskins when he was taking the starter's reps and facing 1st and 2nd stringers, he went 10/17 for a whopping 63 yards. And looked bad doing it. They DO give QBs arm strength tests. It's called the 20 yard out from the far hash, on time, from three and five step drops. GO BILLS!!!
Simon Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 They DO give QBs arm strength tests. It's called the 20 yard out from the far hash, on time, from three and five step drops. There ain't nothing subjective about that; either you can get it home or you can't.
CardinalScotts Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 ya Bowe ripped them for 9 points on offense...Gilmore was used. I know I'll stop reading these points ...in no particular order
Bill from NYC Posted November 7, 2013 Author Posted November 7, 2013 As an aside, I wish they gave QBs an arm strength test. To achieve this, they'd tell the QB to throw the ball as far as he could. They'd give him five throws; and whichever throw was his best one would become his arm strength measurement. That way, we could talk about QB X as a 55 yard guy; or QB Y as a 65 yard guy. Better to have a hard and fast measurement than to go by subjective impressions. There are SO many different types of arm strength. I think that almost every qb can throw a ball 60 yards. But what matters most is the actual zip on the last 5 or 10 yards. Does it flutter in ala Fitz/Tuel, or does it fly in ala Bledsoe/Marino. How much air does a qb need to throw a long pass? Losman, as bad as he was, needed little. I saw Ryan Mallett toss a FLAT FOOTED 50 yard post pattern and the football was never higher than 20 feet. As for Tuel specifically, I think that Trent Edwards had a better arm. Tuel already has better pocket presence than Trent, but his long ball flutters big time. That's a big problem at this level, or so I see it my friend.
Fixxxer Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 Guys, you are straw-man arguing here; that's not what Coach Tuesday said at all. He simply said that Gilmore needs to be better than that, and even said that he normally is better than that. As I've said, I'm as staunch a supporter of Gilmore as there is, and i completely agree with Coach on this one. As bad as Gilmore was that day, he still made a couple of plays that gave the team another chance. Like this one before TJ's fumble (14:27) 11-A.Smith pass incomplete short middle to 82-D.Bowe (24-S.Gilmore). Receiver and coverage at KC 41, crossing from right. http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2013110300/2013/REG9/chiefs@bills#menu=highlights&tab=analyze&recap=quicktake&analyze=playbyplay
San Jose Bills Fan Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 There are SO many different types of arm strength. I think that almost every qb can throw a ball 60 yards. But what matters most is the actual zip on the last 5 or 10 yards. Does it flutter in ala Fitz/Tuel, or does it fly in ala Bledsoe/Marino. How much air does a qb need to throw a long pass? Losman, as bad as he was, needed little. I saw Ryan Mallett toss a FLAT FOOTED 50 yard post pattern and the football was never higher than 20 feet. As for Tuel specifically, I think that Trent Edwards had a better arm. Tuel already has better pocket presence than Trent, but his long ball flutters big time. That's a big problem at this level, or so I see it my friend. Several people have commented on arm strength as the subject evolved after EA's post. To me, true arm strength has to do with how well a QB can EFFORTLESSLY throw a ball. Tuel had several throws last Sunday that were reminiscent of Fitzy in that in an effort to generate velocity, he lost accuracy and his release also took longer. There are plenty of QBs who supposedly don't have strong arms who have done well for the radar gun and numerous "strong-armed QBs" who've thrown up modest numbers on the radar gun. As an aside, I wish they gave QBs an arm strength test. To achieve this, they'd tell the QB to throw the ball as far as he could. They'd give him five throws; and whichever throw was his best one would become his arm strength measurement. That way, we could talk about QB X as a 55 yard guy; or QB Y as a 65 yard guy. Better to have a hard and fast measurement than to go by subjective impressions. EJ threw "only 54 mph" at the combine but I've already seen him make throws which I haven't seen a Bills QB make in a few decades. What's that you say? Radar gun readings at the combine? It's true. I've posted this before and I'll post it again. Average radar gun readings for every QB who has thrown at the combine since 2008: http://blogs.ourlads.com/2013/03/27/quarterback-ball-velocity-at-nfl-combine-2008-2012/
Orton's Arm Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 You may want to recheck Tuel's pre-season when he wasn't playing 3rd and 4th stringers and guys no longer in the league like he was against the Colts. In the most important pre-season game, against the Redskins when he was taking the starter's reps and facing 1st and 2nd stringers, he went 10/17 for a whopping 63 yards. And looked bad doing it. They DO give QBs arm strength tests. It's called the 20 yard out from the far hash, on time, from three and five step drops. GO BILLS!!! I agree that Tuel was disappointing in the preseason game against the Redskins. I realize Tuel is more likely to fail than to succeed. But I want to see him given a fair shake and accurately evaluated anyway. As for the arm strength thing: you can generally use a 40 yard dash to quantify how fast a guy is. Or agility drills to put a number on how agile a guy is. But while the 20 yard out seems like it would give scouts a general idea of a QB's arm strength, I don't think it would allow them to quantify that arm strength the way that a 40 yard dash quantifies foot speed. Bill from NYC also brought up a good point about how a throw in a straight line is often better than a rainbow. Maybe they could do two arm strength tests. Test 1 would consist of throwing the ball as far as possible. Test 2 would consist of throwing the ball as far as possible, in a long building with a 13 foot roof.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 As a postscript to my post two above, Nassib threw harder for the radar gun than did EJ but at the Quicken Loans Skills Challenge, EJ threw the ball considerably farther. Again EJ didn't overwhelm on the radar gun but he's thrown a few lasers since becoming a Buffalo Bill that clearly show off his elite arm talent. Effortlessness + quick release + ball spin + velocity = Elite Arm Talent And of course you have to be accurate.
QCity Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 Scouts measure arm strength on how well a QB can throw the deep out (15-20 yds) from standing still in the pocket. They clock the time from the set position (right before he begins his motion) to the time when the ball reaches his target. This means both the throwing motion (or release) is combined with velocity to estimate arm strength. Most fans erroneously associate arm strength with how far a QB can throw the bomb (Hey man I seen Fitz throw the ball 50+ yards!!), but every NFL QB can unload a 50+ yd Hail Mary if they rear back and step into it. For reference, a 15-20 yd sideline out will have to travel ~35 yds if thrown from the pocket, and it typically has to come in at a low trajectory i.e. "on a rope." Not an easy throw to make, and on the rare attempts by Fitz, you were left holding your breath as that ball hung in the air for what felt like hours. Marino was probably the best I've ever seen at throwing the deep out, and he made it look as effortless as snapping his fingers. One of the reasons the Jets have our number is because Rex Ryan knows we can't make that throw. They completely take away the middle of the field and sit back and dare us to throw the middle and deep outs into man coverage.
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