Release Tuel

[Jauronimo]

I think his point is that there were a number of QBs available. Just because posters dismiss those QBs doesn't mean they are correct.

 

FTL is absolutely correct on his timeline. Tuel was the primary backup for the following games, with the starter in parenthesis:

New England (Manuel)

Carolina (Manuel)

Jets (Manuel)

Baltimore (Manuel)

Cleveland (Manuel, ended up playing)

Cincy (Lewis)

Miami (Lewis)

New Orleans (Lewis)

 

In other words, he's been the primary backup the entire year except for the game he started. I don't understand how people on this board think that's ok. Manuel was already coming off an injury which increases the chances that Tuel is going to be needed.

 

We all love an underdog story and everyone loves the possibility that a kid could come in and be a diamond in the rough, but potentially putting the fate of the season in the hands of an undrafted rookie QB who has a weak arm is mind boggling.

 

While I completely agree that what was left via Free Agency isn't that great, I think it's worlds better than Tuel. Dare I say look at what the Jets did this year knowing that Geno was going to be starting as a rookie. They've had 2 veterans backing him up!! Garrard and Quinn, and a young guy, Simms.

Similarly I don't understand how you and FTL think that signing this vet that neither of you can identify, one week before the season, who has no familiarity with our offense is a panacea. Freeman is clearly better than Tuel. Did you catch his debut in Minny by an chance? This argument looks particularly suspect when you can't put a name on it. This argument looks even worse when Tuel was forced into action and looked every bit as incompetent as Quinn who was cut, Leinart who is out of the league, VY who is out of the league, Garrard who remains inactive, and any other retread.

 

If you're putting "the fate" of the season on your 3rd string QB then its already over. Its pretty much over when your starter goes down.

[RuntheDamnBall]

If you're putting "the fate" of the season on your 3rd string QB then its already over. Its pretty much over when your starter goes down.

[/thread]. Lock it and close it, mods.

[ALF]

Tuel is learning from his mistakes , I think he'll be a lot better by next season.

[dubs]

Similarly I don't understand how you and FTL think that signing this vet that neither of you can identify, one week before the season, who has no familiarity with our offense is a panacea. Freeman is clearly better than Tuel. Did you catch his debut in Minny by an chance? This argument looks particularly suspect when you can't put a name on it. This argument looks even worse when Tuel was forced into action and looked every bit as incompetent as Quinn who was cut, Leinart who is out of the league, VY who is out of the league, Garrard who remains inactive, and any other retread.

 

If you're putting "the fate" of the season on your 3rd string QB then its already over. Its pretty much over when your starter goes down.

 

Um…I've identified about 7. As I said before, simply because you say that these guys wouldn't be better than Tuel doesn't mean they wouldn't be better. It's my belief that if when Kolb went down and we brought in any of them that I've mentioned and kept him in the roster through the first 5 games, that when EJ was injured in the Cleveland game we would have had a much better chance of winning.

[Jauronimo]

Um…I've identified about 7. As I said before, simply because you say that these guys wouldn't be better than Tuel doesn't mean they wouldn't be better. It's my belief that if when Kolb went down and we brought in any of them that I've mentioned and kept him in the roster through the first 5 games, that when EJ was injured in the Cleveland game we would have had a much better chance of winning.

I'm aware. Unless you can make a more compelling argument as to how these 7 or so guys would have given us a materially better chance of winning the CLE or KC games then I'm not sure why you're surprised that people think its OK to enter a game with Tuel as the backup. I'm not asking you to believe differently. I'm suggesting that since both sides can be argued equally well, why the outrage over Tuel vs. some other 3 legged dog?

[RuntheDamnBall]

Um…I've identified about 7. As I said before, simply because you say that these guys wouldn't be better than Tuel doesn't mean they wouldn't be better. It's my belief that if when Kolb went down and we brought in any of them that I've mentioned and kept him in the roster through the first 5 games, that when EJ was injured in the Cleveland game we would have had a much better chance of winning.

The kinds of guys you've identified - Carr, Vince Young -- are/were free agents. They can choose whether or not to sign with a team. So, it's not a one-way street. You have to have player agreement with the team. Are you willing to spend $2M a year on David Carr? That was one of his most recent contracts. As for some of the others, we don't know what VY was like behind the scenes but people at OBD do. They may not want a guy like that around EJ Manuel. You have to evaluate every player and situation and see if it's right for a team that is building for the long term. We'd like to win games this year but I'd rather they find out if Tuel or Lewis are potential Frank Reichs in the making. Even Dixon is a reasonable pickup that some of us were calling for in early Sept.

[dubs]

I'm aware. Unless you can make a more compelling argument as to how these 7 or so guys would have given us a materially better chance of winning the CLE or KC games then I'm not sure why you're surprised that people think its OK to enter a game with Tuel as the backup. I'm not asking you to believe differently. I'm suggesting that since both sides can be argued equally well, why the outrage over Tuel vs. some other 3 legged dog?

 

Same here, I do respect your opinion, but do believe differently.

 

Here's my argument in a nutshell. Tuel had very little success in college. He wasn't highly thought of coming out of school. He plays the highest profile position, a position that every team is consistently trying to find an answer for (now and in the future), yet he didn't even get drafted. He didn't get drafted in a draft that the consensus said was one of the weakest QB drafts in a very long time. In other words, Tuel was a player that was signed to the PS to try and develop into a future backup (as was stated on this board numerous times).

 

Then comes the eye test. Positives: He displays some confidence. He makes pretty quick decisions. He's fairly athletic. Negatives: He has a very weak arm. While he makes quick decisions, they aren't necessarily the right ones. He has a difficult time hitting intermediate routes because of his arm strength shortcomings.

 

Even on that 3rd and 1 play, Marrone said the ball was supposed to go to Stevie, but the snap was low so Tuel went to Graham. Seriously?

 

So while I really don't mind signing him and stashing him on the PS, I don't see any history or evidence that he could be counted on to win games NOW. That's the operative word. While other guys out there via Free Agency weren't Tom Brady or Drew Brees, they have experience, physical tools, and have had some level of success. At the very least many of them have won big games in college and some in the NFL. It's obviously not a good situation, but I'd rather have a guy back there that's demonstrated some success and tools that rolling out a complete unknown.

 

The argument that feel is incorrect is when some posters are confusing potential with ability to play now. People are correct in saying that most of these Vets have shown their ceiling and it's not that sweet. But at least you know what you are getting and you are not signing Brady Quinn to be the savior of the franchise. You are signing him because he's been in the league for years, started games, has a pretty good arm, knows how to read a defense better than a rookie who has never taken an NFL snap, and can step in and hopefully manage the game for a couple weeks. Tuel played in a single-read spread offense in college. That's night and day compared to the NFL.

 

The reason why it's frustrating is because I do believe that is the minute Kolb went down the FO went out and picked up someone as a backup, he would have been prepared to step in during the Cleveland game.

Edited November 6, 2013 by dubs

[Jauronimo]

Same here, I do respect your opinion, but do believe differently.

 

Here's my argument in a nutshell. Tuel had very little success in college. He wasn't highly thought of coming out of school. He plays the highest profile position, a position that every team is consistently trying to find an answer for (now and in the future), yet he didn't even get drafted. He didn't get drafted in a draft that the consensus said was one of the weakest QB drafts in a very long time. In other words, Tuel was a player that was signed to the PS to try and develop into a future backup (as was stated on this board numerous times).

 

Then comes the eye test. Positives: He displays some confidence. He makes pretty quick decisions. He's fairly athletic. Negatives: He has a very weak arm. While he makes quick decisions, they aren't necessarily the right ones. He has a difficult time hitting intermediate routes because of his arm strength shortcomings.

 

Even on that 3rd and 1 play, Marrone said the ball was supposed to go to Stevie, but the snap was low so Tuel went to Graham. Seriously?

 

So while I really don't mind signing him and stashing him on the PS, I don't see any history or evidence that he could be counted on to win games NOW. That's the operative word. While other guys out there via Free Agency weren't Tom Brady or Drew Brees, they have experience, physical tools, and have had some level of success. At the very least many of them have won big games in college and some in the NFL. It's obviously not a good situation, but I'd rather have a guy back there that's demonstrated some success and tools that rolling out a complete unknown.

 

The argument that feel is incorrect is when some posters are confusing potential with ability to play now. People are correct in saying that most of these Vets have shown their ceiling and it's not that sweet. But at least you know what you are getting and you are not signing Brady Quinn to be the savior of the franchise. You are signing him because he's been in the league for years, started games, has a pretty good arm, knows how to read a defense better than a rookie who has never taken an NFL snap, and can step in and hopefully manage the game for a couple weeks. Tuel played in a single-read spread offense in college. That's night and day compared to the NFL.

 

The reason why it's frustrating is because I do believe that is the minute Kolb went down the FO went out and picked up someone as a backup, he would have been prepared to step in during the Cleveland game.

We don't have to speculate about potential vs. ability to win now. In Tuel's only start he looked just like Brady Quinn. 200 yards, 2 back breaking INTs, 1 TD. Again, I get your argument. I don't get your outrage.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Jauronimo

[RuntheDamnBall]

We don't have to speculate about potential vs. ability to win now. In Tuel's only start he looked just like Brady Quinn. 200 yards, 2 back breaking INTs, 1 TD. Again, I get your argument. I don't get your outrage.

But I want the more expensive vetrun Brady Quinn of today, not the cheaper Brady Quinn of the future. It's about leadership and such.

[CodeMonkey]

14 pages about whether or not to release the only completely healthy QB on the roster and who happens to know the system. When the other 2 QBs may or may not be able to play this weekend.

Brilliant.

[dubs]

We don't have to speculate about potential vs. ability to win now. In Tuel's only start he looked just like Brady Quinn. 200 yards, 2 back breaking INTs, 1 TD. Again, I get your argument. I don't get your outrage.

 

I'm not outraged at all. But comparing Tuel's results to any of the guys mentioned is just lunacy.

 

Tuel's stats:

26/59 for a 44.1% completion percentage and 309 yards. That's an average of 5.24 per attempt. He's got 1 TD and 3 INTs. A QBR of 9.6 and QB Rating of 45.1.

[Jauronimo]

I'm not outraged at all. But comparing Tuel's results to any of the guys mentioned is just lunacy.

 

Tuel's stats:

26/59 for a 44.1% completion percentage and 309 yards. That's an average of 5.24 per attempt. He's got 1 TD and 3 INTs. A QBR of 9.6 and QB Rating of 45.1.

Yes comparing stats compiled over 1.25 games to a career is lunacy. Especially when the numbers don't support your case.

 

Heres Quinn's stats. Take a look at his last stop in KC. 8 games, 2 TDs, 8 INTs, QBR of 60, 5.8 yds per attempt. Those numbers are largely a product of one decent game where he threw both of his TDs. Material improvement indeed.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Jauronimo

[MyHorseAteTheKid]

The Bills recievers didn't exactly play great... How many passes were dropped?

Wasn't all Tuel's fault...

[dubs]

Yes comparing stats compiled over 1.25 games to a career is lunacy. Especially when the numbers don't support your case.

 

Heres Quinn's stats. Take a look at his last stop in KC. 8 games, 2 TDs, 8 INTs, QBR of 60, 5.8 yds per attempt. Those numbers are largely a product of one decent game where he threw both of his TDs. Material improvement indeed.

 

That's exactly my point! Tuel has ZERO experience so what else would you expect? All we have to go on is the 1.25 games and the results are an abject failure.

[Jauronimo]

That's exactly my point! Tuel has ZERO experience so what else would you expect? All we have to go on is the 1.25 games and the results are an abject failure.

Your point was that Quinn does not represent material improvement over Tuel?

 

Quinn has YEARS of NFL experience and his last half season produced results, which to borrow your words, were an abject failure. What else would you expect were we to have signed him? How can argue for Quinn or some other bum like Quinn instead of the bum we have?

[dubs]

Your point was that Quinn does not represent material improvement over Tuel?

 

Quinn has YEARS of NFL experience and his last half season produced results, which to borrow your words, were an abject failure. What else would you expect were we to have signed him? How can argue for Quinn or some other bum like Quinn instead of the bum we have?

 

haha! I know he's not very good either.

 

Go back and read the Bill Barnwell article on Jeff Tuel and the history of UDFA Rookies in the NFL. That's a pretty good summary of how I feel about it. It's more about chance of success. I just happen to believe that an experienced NFL vet with 6 weeks to prepare as a backup would have had a much better chance to succeed in relief of Manuel during the Cleveland game (and 9 weeks to prepare for KC).

 

There has almost never, in the history of the NFL, been a UDFA rookie who has performed well (according to Barnwell, who I have a lot of respect for). Jeff Garcia is the lone exception. I'd rather not take a hail mary on Tuel.

[RuntheDamnBall]

haha! I know he's not very good either.

 

Go back and read the Bill Barnwell article on Jeff Tuel and the history of UDFA Rookies in the NFL. That's a pretty good summary of how I feel about it. It's more about chance of success. I just happen to believe that an experienced NFL vet with 6 weeks to prepare as a backup would have had a much better chance to succeed in relief of Manuel during the Cleveland game (and 9 weeks to prepare for KC).

 

There has almost never, in the history of the NFL, been a UDFA rookie who has performed well (according to Barnwell, who I have a lot of respect for). Jeff Garcia is the lone exception. I'd rather not take a hail mary on Tuel.

Ah, but right there - while we're talking history: how many teams end up needing 4 QBs in the course of a regular season, while also having lost another one for the season in training camp?

 

Look, the opinion of the FO and coaching staff is not far from your own. Tuel didn't cut it in Cleveland, and as such the team swiftly decided to bring in two guys who had been primary backups in the past (Dixon and Flynn). They had also traded for another QB and elevated him from the PS. They obviously see enough in Tuel on an everyday basis to decide that they don't want to part ways with him. They never ever viewed starting him as an ideal scenario and admitted he was a PS guy, but his preseason play and circumstance forced their hands. Once he sh-- the bed in Cleveland, he became their third option (with EJ not available).

 

Really, what else is there to discuss here?

[dubs]

Ah, but right there - while we're talking history: how many teams end up needing 4 QBs in the course of a regular season, while also having lost another one for the season in training camp?

 

Look, the opinion of the FO and coaching staff is not far from your own. Tuel didn't cut it in Cleveland, and as such the team swiftly decided to bring in two guys who had been primary backups in the past (Dixon and Flynn). They had also traded for another QB and elevated him from the PS. They obviously see enough in Tuel on an everyday basis to decide that they don't want to part ways with him. They never ever viewed starting him as an ideal scenario and admitted he was a PS guy, but his preseason play and circumstance forced their hands. Once he sh-- the bed in Cleveland, he became their third option (with EJ not available).

 

Really, what else is there to discuss here?

 

Not much. Like I said, my only complaint is that instead of waiting until JT crapped the bed in Cleveland to bring in backups, we should have picked the best of the worst prior to week 4 of the preseason with the intention of him being the backup for the year. That's really the only thing I have an issue I with. I don't think that's hindsight either. Other teams regularly do that.

 

If Tuel got pressed into service during the course of a game where TWO QBs were hurt and we had to bring him in, then fine, no problemo. Not much you can do about that.

 

Either way, let's hope we are out of the woods with this and EJ comes back strong and JT becomes a quality backup with some time (years) to improve.

[Superb Owl]

Did he? The Bills didn't even really try and run the ball after the fumble. Why not just keep doing what was working well with running it at 6.3 YPC? This reminds me so much of the way Chan Gailey would panic when the Bills would get behind in a game.

 

 

At the 12:47 mark to the end of the game Tuel had 15 attempts passing, and 12 of those were incomplete. The Bills only attempted two runs during that time, one run for 4 yards by Summers, and 6 yards by Jackson. The Bills OC was forcing the rookie QB to shoulder the game at that point. That's the way I see it anyway.

hackett did say the chiefs were doing a good job baiting us to pass by faking all-out and backing off

[billykaykay]

Same here, I do respect your opinion, but do believe differently.

 

Here's my argument in a nutshell. Tuel had very little success in college. He wasn't highly thought of coming out of school. He plays the highest profile position, a position that every team is consistently trying to find an answer for (now and in the future), yet he didn't even get drafted. He didn't get drafted in a draft that the consensus said was one of the weakest QB drafts in a very long time. In other words, Tuel was a player that was signed to the PS to try and develop into a future backup (as was stated on this board numerous times).

 

Then comes the eye test. Positives: He displays some confidence. He makes pretty quick decisions. He's fairly athletic. Negatives: He has a very weak arm. While he makes quick decisions, they aren't necessarily the right ones. He has a difficult time hitting intermediate routes because of his arm strength shortcomings.

 

Even on that 3rd and 1 play, Marrone said the ball was supposed to go to Stevie, but the snap was low so Tuel went to Graham. Seriously?

 

So while I really don't mind signing him and stashing him on the PS, I don't see any history or evidence that he could be counted on to win games NOW. That's the operative word. While other guys out there via Free Agency weren't Tom Brady or Drew Brees, they have experience, physical tools, and have had some level of success. At the very least many of them have won big games in college and some in the NFL. It's obviously not a good situation, but I'd rather have a guy back there that's demonstrated some success and tools that rolling out a complete unknown.

 

The argument that feel is incorrect is when some posters are confusing potential with ability to play now. People are correct in saying that most of these Vets have shown their ceiling and it's not that sweet. But at least you know what you are getting and you are not signing Brady Quinn to be the savior of the franchise. You are signing him because he's been in the league for years, started games, has a pretty good arm, knows how to read a defense better than a rookie who has never taken an NFL snap, and can step in and hopefully manage the game for a couple weeks. Tuel played in a single-read spread offense in college. That's night and day compared to the NFL.

 

The reason why it's frustrating is because I do believe that is the minute Kolb went down the FO went out and picked up someone as a backup, he would have been prepared to step in during the Cleveland game.

Weak arm ? I don't know. The TD pass went approximately 60 yards in the air & on the money.