To those of you who defend Hackett

[The Big Cat]

Trust me, there were a lot more instances than just two but these were the most obvious ones that popped in to my mind. And they were two very crucial moments in the game, and it was clear that the play calling was poor. Honestly, I watched that Bengals game with a bunch of friends and they were all dumbstruck by the running plays on the 3 yard line (most of them weren't bills fans). I mean, is it just me or does running the ball twice on 1st and 13, then on 2nd and 11 just insane? I knew we lost the game then and there. And btw, there's a difference between 'sample' and 'example'. If you want a sample to evaluate, watch the entire jets game again

 

How bout you read any of the numerous all-22 evaluations that are out there?

[atlbillsfan1975]

I've alluded to this in a few threads now, but it seems pretty clear to me that most of the people who are "Anti-Hackett" simply don't understand what is happening on the field.

 

I'm not saying he's infallible, and I've seen some completely valid criticisms. However, most people have no idea what plays are being called, or how they are designed. Those same people can't be bothered to educate themselves with the WEALTH of great football analysis out there.

 

Since the emergence of the All-22, it's relatively easy to tell what play was called -especially on offense- and almost as easy to determine the difference between a poor call and poor execution. One does not have to subscribe to the NFL's service to access the All-22 footage, plenty of capable writers and bloggers dissect numerous plays every week.

 

Although this will fall on deaf ears, I would suggest to those who are hypercritical of Hackett to read up on "packaged plays," learn about QBs anticipating defensive keys, and perhaps re-watch each Bills game this year to notice the steady expansion of the playbook.

 

Again, I'm not anointing Hackett and Marrone as geniuses, but it seems to me there's a lot more going on than some of you are seeing.

man, i played football through college. Not saying it makes me an expert, but i understand football a lot. It is clear to me that Hackett as taken a very very conseravtive approach. That said there are many plays of the conservative type which can be run out of similar packages and personel.

 

As i have said i hope i am wrong about Hackett and he improves greatly. The fact is right now he is one of the main reasons this team does not have a few more wins.

 

Also i remember and so do you guys that the few times EJ looked his best was when EJ was calling his own plays, the headset went down. Just saying.

[uncle flap]

man, i played football through college. Not saying it makes me an expert, but i understand football a lot. It is clear to me that Hackett as taken a very very conseravtive approach. That said there are many plays of the conservative type which can be run out of similar packages and personel.

 

As i have said i hope i am wrong about Hackett and he improves greatly. The fact is right now he is one of the main reasons this team does not have a few more wins.

 

Also i remember and so do you guys that the few times EJ looked his best was when EJ was calling his own plays, the headset went down. Just saying.

 

I didn't name anyone in particular because I was referring to some general themes I've seen thrown out there.

 

If you're saying Hackett is too conservative, that's certainly a valid opinion. I'd say that some of those conservative calls are what have kept the Bills in games.

 

I referred to the All-22 and packaged plays because it appears to me that some of the bland runs up the middle are the result of the QB reading the defense at the line and deciding to hand it off. I'm not just talking about the read option. There are plays with built in hot routes. Watch what the WRs do on some of the running plays. With inexperienced QBs, that may be the safest play, especially when he's not confident in analyzing what the defense is showing.

 

I'm not claiming to be an expert either, and I agree that Hackett is playing on the conservative side. However, I think he's allowing for the big plays to happen - when they're there - rather than forcing them. I think that's the prudent approach considering he's in the process of installing a new offense with a lot of inexperienced pieces.

 

If and when EJ "gets it," I think the offense will be dangerous. I'm seeing a lack of execution more so than an inherent lack of aggressiveness.

 

I also take issue with the "very very conservative" statement. In the Cinci game, they were certainly aggressive in mounting their comeback. In OT, I'm ok with playing it safe when backed up against the endzone. The D had come around and if it wasn't for that awful punt coverage, they certainly would've had a decent shot at getting the ball back. And before it even got to that point, if Hogan makes the third down conversion, maybe they open it up once they got some breathing room. The conservative argument would hold a lot more water if they had run it again on third down. I imagine Hackett would have been vilified far more than he is now if he called throws on first and second down that were incomplete. Can you imagine if one resulted in a pick six or a safety?

 

As far as the Jets game, there was an excellent write up in Buffalo Rumblings IIRC. EJ wasn't reading the defense properly and missing wide open receivers. He was feeling the pressure (from a very good d line) and making crap throws off his back foot. I put that on EJ and the o line more than I do Hackett. And don't forget that's when he had I think at least three throws downfield that were simply inaccurate. If my QB wasn't hitting on those deep sideline passes, I'd probably start to shy away from them too.

 

Anyway, like I said upthread, I'm not trying to completely absolve Hackett or claim he's some revolutionary genius, I just think much of the criticism I'm seeing here is unwarranted.

Edited October 26, 2013 by uncle flap

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Throughout various threads I have noticed that a lot of you share my opinion in regards to nate hackett: he is often terrible and terribly predictable. I've lost count of the number of times I absolutely KNEW they were going to run the ball (The jets game being the worst example). Constantly doing this on first downs, and often consecutively on the second downs, gets them to 3rd and long which is always a challenge for the offense, as the D knows a pass is coming. Compound this with the hurry up offense, which in my opinion is giving them very little if any advantage, and the D is back on the field before they can find a seat on the bench.

 

Now, I've read the same defense for Hackett all over the place: "Well the bills are scoring 20+ in all the games with a backup qb and injured running backs!"

 

While this is true, to me those facts don't reflect the play calling as much as it does the team's effort, confidence, and resilience, which I would attribute to Marrone, the ultimate leader of the team. I think they could be putting even more points on the board if they stretched the field more often (why else do we have two track star wideouts?) and pass more on first down just keep the defense honest. The defense is doing a hell of a job considering what they got on the field, but how much better would they be if the offense increased their time of possesion (T.O.P. -17m vs Bengals, -6m vs Browns, -8.5m vs Jets).

 

Granted, the offensive play calling looked a little better last Sunday and it seemed like a sluggish o line and inconsistent passing was the biggest cause of the somewhat anemic offense. But make no mistake: when I can constantly predict the calls from my couch, play calling is a legitimate concern

 

I love how people claim they predict the plays because they say its going to be a run and it's a run.

 

There must be dozens of different running plays which all attack different strengths and weaknesses. But a right or left off tackle or inside left or right run with or with out a pulling guard tight end or fullback are all simply "a run up the middle"...

 

Also, If you are predictable but still scoring who gives a dammm anyway... ?

Edited October 24, 2013 by over 20 years of fanhood

[thewildrabbit]

 

If and when EJ "gets it," I think the offense will be dangerous. I'm seeing a lack of execution more so than an inherent lack of aggressiveness.

 

As far as the Jets game, there was an excellent write up in Buffalo Rumblings IIRC. EJ wasn't reading the defense properly and missing wide open receivers. He was feeling the pressure (from a very good d line) and making crap throws off his back foot. I put that on EJ and the o line more than I do Hackett. And don't forget that's when he had I think at least three throws downfield that were simply inaccurate. If my QB wasn't hitting on those deep sideline passes, I'd probably start to shy away from them too.

 

Anyway, like I said upthread, I'm not trying to completely absolve Hackett or claim he's some revolutionary genius, I just think much of the criticism I'm seeing here is unwarranted.

Yea I agree. That fast paced offense will be very dangerous when EJ / Thad are more developed, no question.

 

 

What so many posters here don't see is that last season Chan Gailey got his offense to work in a very specific way. The QB Fitz would find the open receiver in usually under 3 seconds, so the ball was out very quickly. This mostly negated the pass rush against him. Even then he was hurried and hit quite often so that O line wasn't a good as the stats lead everyone to believe.

 

Gailey also utilized a shotgun-spread offense most of the time, and ran frequently out of that formation. This allowed Spiller to face defense's that couldn't really stack the box because the offense was so spread out. It also allowed Spiller to face only one tackler and to get his 6.0 YPC avg by hitting big plays once he made the first defender miss.

 

 

That said, this years new OC Nate Hackett seems determined to keep a TE and even a FB in at times to max protect the young QB's. Now, against the NY Jets, who have a top D line and were able to get to EJ quite often because the play of the LG (Colin Brown) was so bad. He graded as one of the very worst players in the NFL thru 5 weeks. Brown has since been replaced by Legursky at LG, so the Bills have a slight upgrade at that position.

 

I'm still not entirely happy with all the players on that O line, and I think at least 3 should be replaced this next year in free agency and the draft. Those young QB's need all the help they can get.

[The Cincinnati Kid]

How many of you have called plays in a football game that was for 8th grade level or higher working for the local school district's team? How many of you have put together a game plan? Watched film in order to find your strengths and your opponent's weaknesses? How many of you have coached football that wasn't your kid's peewee team? Once you have experience dealing with real football, then I will listen to your criticism of the Bills OC.

 

IMO most you have no idea what you are talking about. Its part of the reason why you are on the couch come game days.

 

Raise your hand if you've spent hours analyzing the opponent's defense on hudl.

[John in Jax]

The Cincinnati Kid = Nate Hackett's Dad. "Leave my boy alone. He's a football genius!" LOL

[Ohiostyle]

Isn't usually when fans complain about play calling, its just that the play wasn't splashy enough for them. No coach is really trying for touchdowns on every play, but people who grew up playing madden think that's how works. So much of play calling is seeing how a defense reacts a formation, or to repeated 'looks', from them when you know you need a play you take the guesswork out of the equation, and its simply execution at that point. This seems to be the kind of coaches we have, its almost its own new philosophy and who knows where it will take us, but I do know that at critical times this year the play that's been called has been there, and it simply came down to execution (wk 1 SJ drop, wk2 EJ 2 SJ). Both those plays were built off stuff we'd run earlier in the game and the defense reacted exactly as they had before. Their are holes in this philosophy, like games are almost always close due to very little risk taken. But I'm willing to wait and see how this all works out.

[uncle flap]

How many of you have called plays in a football game that was for 8th grade level or higher working for the local school district's team? How many of you have put together a game plan? Watched film in order to find your strengths and your opponent's weaknesses? How many of you have coached football that wasn't your kid's peewee team? Once you have experience dealing with real football, then I will listen to your criticism of the Bills OC.

 

IMO most you have no idea what you are talking about. Its part of the reason why you are on the couch come game days.

 

Raise your hand if you've spent hours analyzing the opponent's defense on hudl.

 

I haven't coached at that level... yet. Im still young so there's still some hope. Meanwhile I'm stuck coaching soccer and basketball.

 

But anyway, the point I was getting at is that it's not necessary to be an "expert" to thoughtfully discuss or analyze this type of stuff. There's a vast middle ground between varsity coach and those that don't seem to be able (or willing) to comprehend the subtleties of the game.

 

I guess I sounded harsh in some posts earlier. I realize people like to vent. It just gets on my nerves when I see baseless criticisms parroted as gospel - and then when those claims are refuted, those making the original claims would seem to prefer to dig their heels in and dismiss any evidence to the contrary rather than engage in discussion.

 

Opinions are fine, but some people would rather argue than try to incorporate other points of view and/or additional information into their opinions.

 

PS Cincinnati Kid - I'm not quoting you because I totally disagree, or to discourage anyone from posting their opinions. Rather I want to encourage people to take a closer look so everyone can benefit from more informed discussions. It's been getting hard to read a lot of threads here.

[KikO M G]

You absolutely KNEW they were going to run the ball? That's like saying you absolutely knew a coin flip would land on tails, or you knew your wife was going to have a girl. It's 50/50. Based on the situation, the odds are much better than that of being able to know whether it's a run play or pass play.

 

That is a very simplistic analysis of an NFL offense. The question is whether when everything is put together, does the coaching staff put the team in a position to win. So far the Bills are 3-4 and they've been competitive in every game against a much more difficult first half schedule than their second half. The defense has been better than the offense, yes, and both units have room to grow. But to say Hackett is terrible because you guessed right on a coin flip is not persuasive, in my opinion.

[Thirty Year Fan]

Why are fans so fixated on "play calling?"

 

Does our offense fail because they called the "wrong" play? Or because of lousy execution?

+1

[nucci]

There are basically 2 options each time you snap the ball- run or pass. I'm impressed you can predict a running play. Add to that we are a strong running team I would expect us to run more often and be predictable. If you watch professional football closely you might realize game plans are not about tricking the other team, but about executing your strengths. Since we have 2 excellent running backs and we are weak at QB and WR should we be a passing team in order to trick the other team?

Your criticism makes no sense.

Considering every play is either a run or pass the OP is absolutely brilliant.

[billsgpr88]

A lot of responses here have objected to my problem with the predictability with the playcalling. When I said I know they are gonna run it, this was at times when the run proved to be ineffective in the drive. I don't think Hackett considers the circumstances of the drive/game enough. Here's a quote for you, and I'm paraphrasing here:

 

when asked about his implementation of the hurry up strategy:

 

If we ever slow the offense down, it is because coach marrone made the decision. I want to go fast all of the time

 

Apologies for not having the source on hand, but I remember that he said something to the effect of this (some of you may have read the same interview, I found it on TBD). My question: isn't that too simplistic? I mean that, to me, was clearly the biggest reason they lost the game against the pats. And I've said it before but this was just inexcusable to me so I will say it again: RUNNING ON FIRST AND 13, THEN ON SECOND AND 11 IN OVERTIME FROM INSIDE THE FIVE. I like all the inside info that all you guys have posted, and it has definitely made me regret the generalizing tone of the OP. But am I the only one that lost my ish at the end of that Bengals game?

[uncle flap]

And I've said it before but this was just inexcusable to me so I will say it again: RUNNING ON FIRST AND 13, THEN ON SECOND AND 11 IN OVERTIME FROM INSIDE THE FIVE. I like all the inside info that all you guys have posted, and it has definitely made me regret the generalizing tone of the OP. But am I the only one that lost my ish at the end of that Bengals game?

 

 

I also take issue with the "very very conservative" statement. In the Cinci game, they were certainly aggressive in mounting their comeback. In OT, I'm ok with playing it safe when backed up against the endzone. The D had come around and if it wasn't for that awful punt coverage, they certainly would've had a decent shot at getting the ball back. And before it even got to that point, if Hogan makes the third down conversion, maybe they open it up once they got some breathing room. The conservative argument would hold a lot more water if they had run it again on third down. I imagine Hackett would have been vilified far more than he is now if he called throws on first and second down that were incomplete. Can you imagine if one resulted in a pick six or a safety?

 

 

 

I'm not sure if you're just trolling now, but I think if you polled both fans and coaches around the league, they'd overwhelmingly agree that running the ball from from inside the five is the smart call.

 

Trying to get a little breathing room and create a manageable third down in that situation is what OCs and HCs would do 99% of the time. Of all the things to criticize, the fact that you're hanging your hat on that sequence makes me think that you're either being contrarian for the sake of attention, or that you simply have no clue what you're talking about.

 

I think everyone lost their ish because of the less than perfect throw by Lewis and drop by Hogan on third down and the subsequent terrible punt coverage. If you go back and watch the plays, Spiller nearly broke his second run for a first down on the ground. Would you still be so upset if he made that first down?

 

I know- coulda would shoulda- but of all the things to criticize, in that situation and throughout the season, it has boiled down to execution IMO, not play calling nor scheming.

 

I apologize in advance if your criticisms are genuine and you aren't simply trying to be argumentative. I hope that over the course of the rest of the season you learn to appreciate the things that Hackett is doing well, and not dwell so much on the instances that haven't worked out.

[billsgpr88]

I'm not sure if you're just trolling now, but I think if you polled both fans and coaches around the league, they'd overwhelmingly agree that running the ball from from inside the five is the smart call.

 

Trying to get a little breathing room and create a manageable third down in that situation is what OCs and HCs would do 99% of the time. Of all the things to criticize, the fact that you're hanging your hat on that sequence makes me think that you're either being contrarian for the sake of attention, or that you simply have no clue what you're talking about.

 

I think everyone lost their ish because of the less than perfect throw by Lewis and drop by Hogan on third down and the subsequent terrible punt coverage. If you go back and watch the plays, Spiller nearly broke his second run for a first down on the ground. Would you still be so upset if he made that first down?

 

I know- coulda would shoulda- but of all the things to criticize, in that situation and throughout the season, it has boiled down to execution IMO, not play calling nor scheming.

 

I apologize in advance if your criticisms are genuine and you aren't simply trying to be argumentative. I hope that over the course of the rest of the season you learn to appreciate the things that Hackett is doing well, and not dwell so much on the instances that haven't worked out.

 

dude, you sound like the one trolling. 2 and 11 from the five and they run when a field goal wins it? you are forcing yourself into a do or die situation on third down, and a punt from there gives the D about 20 yards to defend before they are in field goal range. A third an out on that possession very likely loses the game. And this being after goodwin and chandler burned the secondary to tie the game, proving they could be effective in the air. I do think hackett is getting better, and I'll be the first guy singing his praises if the bills are even competitive with the ridiculous all-star line up on the saints o, but I can't yet let go of what I saw in the pats, jets, and bengals games.

[Thunderstealer]

I'm over the moon with the coaches on this team. Some with little to no experience, Key position injuries, tough schedule--the games have been entertaining and close.

[artmalibu]

With the talent the team has and the schedule they have played, results are not too bad imo.

[KikO M G]

Agree that the one set of downs in OT was bad. There will always be examples of when different or more creative play calling would be preferred. But overall the play calling has been appropriate for a young team and has attempted to favor the offense's strengths. It has also been MUCH more creative than last year, especially in the last 3 or 4 games.

 

But if the play calling was that bad overall there is no way they are in every game late the way they have been. Lots of brilliant calls to convert on 3rd down and get the team back into games they seemed out of. I'm happy with the progress of Hackett so far.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Right Manuel for the Job

[Buffaloed in Pa]

Give me some Chan,10 times the O.C. than little Buddy Hackett.

[atlbillsfan1975]

Just wanted to bump this topic back up now.