To those of you who defend Hackett

[BillnutinHouston]

Marrone has proven already that he's a very conservative coach and his 'analytic' talk was BS which Brandon probably forced him to do.

Yea, probably. OMG

[boyst]

Scott Chandler seems to be a pretty solid receiver to me. And despite what you've mentioned, do you geniunely like what you have seen when it comes to play caling?

As others have already pointed out, execution and skill. We have been having problems fielding enough skill to accomplish the desired effects. That skill ruins execution.

 

Now, critics can argue - reasonably, too - that Hackett needs to adjust his play calling. But, how can you do that? We've been destroyed by injury. We're a new and growing team. We are learning confidence and rhythm under a new regime. It goes against progress to scrap all that and abandon ship. There are still, what - 9? starters who are healthy. Those players need reps and those players need to gain confidence in this system. The only way to do that is to keep doing the same thing. At this point Marrone has a lot of slack as a first year NFL coach. Hackett has as much slack as Marrone will give him. We just have to be patient.

[Dibs]

Throughout various threads I have noticed that a lot of you share my opinion in regards to nate hackett: he is often terrible and terribly predictable. I've lost count of the number of times I absolutely KNEW they were going to run the ball (The jets game being the worst example). Constantly doing this on first downs, and often consecutively on the second downs, gets them to 3rd and long which is always a challenge for the offense, as the D knows a pass is coming. Compound this with the hurry up offense, which in my opinion is giving them very little if any advantage, and the D is back on the field before they can find a seat on the bench.

 

Now, I've read the same defense for Hackett all over the place: "Well the bills are scoring 20+ in all the games with a backup qb and injured running backs!"

 

While this is true, to me those facts don't reflect the play calling as much as it does the team's effort, confidence, and resilience, which I would attribute to Marrone, the ultimate leader of the team. I think they could be putting even more points on the board if they stretched the field more often (why else do we have two track star wideouts?) and pass more on first down just keep the defense honest. The defense is doing a hell of a job considering what they got on the field, but how much better would they be if the offense increased their time of possesion (T.O.P. -17m vs Bengals, -6m vs Browns, -8.5m vs Jets).

 

Granted, the offensive play calling looked a little better last Sunday and it seemed like a sluggish o line and inconsistent passing was the biggest cause of the somewhat anemic offense. But make no mistake: when I can constantly predict the calls from my couch, play calling is a legitimate concern

 

Hackett may well be an unimaginative and predictable coach.......but how anybody could claim to know either way at this point is beyond me.

 

There are two main factors for being unable to tell.....

 

Execution of Plays: If the players on the field are incapable of taking full advantage of a play.....i.e. the QB doesn't find his open receivers downfield or across the middle, and checks down to the RB on the line of scrimmage where there are 2 defenders 2 yards away from him.....or worst still, panics and gets sacked. Not only does it look like a "bad playcall" but perhaps makes the OC less inclined to call the play in the future.

 

Instead, opting for a basic run play which might have slim big play potential.....but due to having a good running game(and it has been a good running game), the chances of positive yards are higher than the extremely patchy passing game.

 

(To make matters worse, in the last few games he has had hobbled RBs(and WR) on top of an inexperienced QB situation. Damned if he passes.....and damned if he runs. Is it that surprising that Summers got some carries last week?)

 

Marrone/Hackett philosophy:

I don't recall this ever being brought up in these arguments but to me it has been obvious since week 1. Marrone made several comments relating to his righting of the ship at Syracuse......about running a limited playbook and running the same basic plays until the players could execute them without flaw.....then progressively expanding the playbook as previous plays were mastered.

 

When starting the season with a rookie QB, this philosophy made some sense. Bring him along progressively, build his confidence, etc.

One can however easily argue over the merits of this philosophy.....but assuming that it has been used throughout the season(with 2 new QBs).....it cancels any argument over whether Hackett has done a bad job. How can one assess Hackett's playcalling ability and diversity when he is using a limited playbook.

As Hackett was known to be a dynamic OC in Syracuse, it seems quite obvious that his playbook is only being fractionally used at this point.

 

 

The final point is one of simple observation. Considering all of the adversity the Offense has had so far this season.....we are still managing to move the ball more yards/game than 14 other teams.....and score better/game than 16 other teams. To make the bold statement that Hackett is terrible certainly seems premature to anybody who understands anything about football.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Dibs

[thewildrabbit]

Good that you hinted at this, too: there are more than two types of runs. If it's not a pitch or a toss, it's not simply a "run up the middle."

OK, how is this?

 

2nd QTR 5:50, 1st down and 10, 1st play of the series on the Buffalo 41. PLAY ACTION, Thad Lewis hands off to FB Frank Summers (the single setback), runs off RT for 16 yards. 3 wide set with a TE on strong side, run was to weak side.

The first Miami tackler missed Summers behind the LoS, so Summers was able to break free for a big gain carrying two defenders on him.

 

Next play, 2nd QTR 5:17 1st down and 10 at the Miami 43, SHOTGUN set, FB Summers single set back next to Lewis, LG pulls to lead block up the middle for -2 yards

 

Now, the rest of that series resulted in a FG. The poster was wrong when he stated this drive resulted in no points and the OC was inept because he called for two similar plays to the FB. Considering both Spiller and Jackson were seriously hurting it made sense to use the FB and back up RB Choice at times.

1-10-BUF41

(5:50) F.Summers right tackle to MIA 43 for 16 yards (J.Jenkins).

1-10-MIA43

(5:17) (Shotgun) F.Summers up the middle to MIA 45 for -2 yards (D.Shelby; R.Starks).

2-12-MIA45

(4:42) (Shotgun) T.Lewis pass incomplete short right to S.Johnson.

3-12-MIA45

 

(4:38) (Shotgun) PENALTY on BUF-T.Graham, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at MIA 45 - No Play.

3-17-50

(4:38) (Shotgun) T.Lewis pass deep left to T.Graham to MIA 20 for 30 yards (D.Patterson). Penalty on MIA-O.Vernon, Defensive Offside, declined.

1-10-MIA20

(4:26) T.Lewis pass short left to F.Jackson pushed ob at MIA 16 for 4 yards (R.Jones).

2-6-MIA16

(3:56) (Shotgun) T.Lewis pass incomplete short right to S.Johnson [D.Jordan].

3-6-MIA16

(3:51) (Shotgun) T.Lewis sacked at MIA 22 for -6 yards (R.Starks). FUMBLES (R.Starks), and recovers at MIA 21. T.Lewis to MIA 21 for no gain (D.Jordan).

 

4-11-MIA21

(3:19) (Field Goal formation) D.Carpenter 39 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-G.Sanborn, Holder-B.Moorman.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/gametracker/playbyplay/NFL_20131020_BUF@MIA

 

 

 

It may sound techmo to some ( whatever that is ) But its how the runs are defined.

Edited October 23, 2013 by FeartheLosing

[Dibs]

OK, how is this?

 

2nd QTR 5:50, 1st down and 10, 1st play of the series on the Buffalo 41. PLAY ACTION, Thad Lewis hands off to FB Frank Summers (the single setback), runs off RT for 16 yards. 3 wide set with a TE on strong side, run was to weak side.

The first Miami tackler missed Summers behind the LoS, so Summers was able to break free for a big gain carrying two defenders on him.

 

Next play, 2nd QTR 5:17 1st down and 10 at the Miami 43, SHOTGUN set, FB Summers single set back next to Lewis, LG pulls to lead block up the middle for -2 yards

 

Now, the rest of that series resulted in a FG. The poster was wrong when he stated this drive resulted in no points and the OC was inept because he called for two similar plays to the FB. Considering both Spiller and Jackson were seriously hurting it made sense to use the FB and back up RB Choice at times.

 

1-10-BUF41

(5:50) F.Summers right tackle to MIA 43 for 16 yards (J.Jenkins).

1-10-MIA43

(5:17) (Shotgun) F.Summers up the middle to MIA 45 for -2 yards (D.Shelby; R.Starks).

2-12-MIA45

....

 

I thought using Summers was quite unpredictable. I also think it quite strange that certain people somehow saw it as being an example of Hackett being predictable.

[atlbillsfan1975]

How do you call running a similar same play over again that had just worked off RT for 16 yards with FB Summers Inept? It was in fact a play up the middle behind Eric Wood and not off RT, so it was a similar play, and not the same play. I totally get the Bills OC that if you find something that works try it again with a little variation.

 

Miami has the 13th ranked defense, and are 9th against the run in the NFL. Yet the Buffalo Bills managed to win this game.

 

Bills fans are making me sick with all this nit picking over the offense with such inexperienced QB's behind center. Both RB's injured and a new player at LG just off an injury. WR Stevie Johnson injured the last few weeks so he was unable to get timing down on pass routes.

 

 

Wanna complain about something? Just wait until after this next game at the NO Superdome against the 5-1 Saints

It was literally the same run bud. Same formation and everything. I watched it. No different set, or different way of getting Summers the ball. It is inept to do the same play twice in a row!!!! Choice was available.

You guys can watch with rose colored glasses. trust me i am not a pessimist. I call it like i see it.

I have gotten mad at other posters for being negative. But Hackett is just not very good at calling plays. understanding the flow of the game right now. i am sure he can improve, if not he will not be here next year. No big. None of you are changing my mind on what i have seen over the first 7 weeks.

I would love to see the stat on how many times a CJ Spiller hand off has started a game or the second half.

[thewildrabbit]

Hackett may well be an unimaginative and predictable coach.......but how anybody could claim to know either way at this point is beyond me.

 

There are two main factors for being unable to tell.....

 

Execution of Plays: If the players on the field are incapable of taking full advantage of a play.....i.e. the QB doesn't find his open receivers downfield or across the middle, and checks down to the RB on the line of scrimmage where there are 2 defenders 2 yards away from him.....or worst still, panics and gets sacked. Not only does it look like a "bad playcall" but perhaps makes the OC less inclined to call the play in the future.

 

Instead, opting for a basic run play which might have slim big play potential.....but due to having a good running game(and it has been a good running game), the chances of positive yards are higher than the extremely patchy passing game.

 

(To make matters worse, in the last few games he has had hobbled RBs(and WR) on top of an inexperienced QB situation. Damned if he passes.....and damned if he runs. Is it that surprising that Summers got some carries last week?)

 

Marrone/Hackett philosophy:

I don't recall this ever being brought up in these arguments but to me it has been obvious since week 1. Marrone made several comments relating to his righting of the ship at Syracuse......about running a limited playbook and running the same basic plays until the players could execute them without flaw.....then progressively expanding the playbook as previous plays were mastered.

 

When starting the season with a rookie QB, this philosophy made some sense. Bring him along progressively, build his confidence, etc.

One can however easily argue over the merits of this philosophy.....but assuming that it has been used throughout the season(with 2 new QBs).....it cancels any argument over whether Hackett has done a bad job. How can one assess Hackett's playcalling ability and diversity when he is using a limited playbook.

As Hackett was known to be a dynamic OC in Syracuse, it seems quite obvious that his playbook is only being fractionally used at this point.

 

 

The final point is one of simple observation. Considering all of the adversity the Offense has had so far this season.....we are still managing to move the ball more yards/game than 14 other teams.....and score better/game than 16 other teams. To make the bold statement that Hackett is terrible certainly seems premature to anybody who understands anything about football.

well said

 

Not to mention that even with this "inept" rookie OC, rookie HC, many injuries to the star players, with sub par players on that O line, and very inexperienced QB's.

 

 

This years offense is ranked BETTER then last years that had Andy Levitre at LG, that had Journeyman QB in Fitz, that had a very NFL experienced play caller in Chan Gailey. The 2012 offensive playbook was unlimited.

 

2013 offense ranked #17 total, #27 passing, #4 rushing

 

2012 offense ranked #19 total, #25 passing, #6 rushing

[thewildrabbit]

It was literally the same run bud. Same formation and everything. I watched it. No different set, or different way of getting Summers the ball. It is inept to do the same play twice in a row!!!! Choice was available.

You guys can watch with rose colored glasses. trust me i am not a pessimist. I call it like i see it.

I have gotten mad at other posters for being negative. But Hackett is just not very good at calling plays. understanding the flow of the game right now. i am sure he can improve, if not he will not be here next year. No big. None of you are changing my mind on what i have seen over the first 7 weeks.

I would love to see the stat on how many times a CJ Spiller hand off has started a game or the second half.

No offense, but man you have a bad memory! You also stated that that drive resulted in no points when in fact it resulted in a FG. ...beer goggles maybe

 

I have the game recorded, and just re-watched both plays. First play was "play action" off RT. Second play was a shotgun passing fake with a run play up the middle.

 

All ya had to do was actually read my post, or simply follow the link if ya didn't believe me.

 

 

(5:50) F.Summers right tackle to MIA 43 for 16 yards (J.Jenkins).

 

 

 

 

(5:17) (Shotgun) F.Summers up the middle to MIA 45 for -2 yards (D.Shelby; R.Starks).

 

 

 

http://www.cbssports...0131020_BUF@MIA

Edited October 23, 2013 by FeartheLosing

[Dibs]

It was literally the same run bud. Same formation and everything. I watched it. No different set, or different way of getting Summers the ball.....

 

You need to watch it again.

 

On the odd chance that the Play-by-Play was incorrect, I just watched it again myself. They were definitely different formations(2nd was shotgun & delay).....and to my eye, Summers run to a different gap.

[3rdand12]

Throughout various threads I have noticed that a lot of you share my opinion in regards to nate hackett: he is often terrible and terribly predictable. I've lost count of the number of times I absolutely KNEW they were going to run the ball (The jets game being the worst example). Constantly doing this on first downs, and often consecutively on the second downs, gets them to 3rd and long which is always a challenge for the offense, as the D knows a pass is coming. Compound this with the hurry up offense, which in my opinion is giving them very little if any advantage, and the D is back on the field before they can find a seat on the bench.

 

Now, I've read the same defense for Hackett all over the place: "Well the bills are scoring 20+ in all the games with a backup qb and injured running backs!"

 

While this is true, to me those facts don't reflect the play calling as much as it does the team's effort, confidence, and resilience, which I would attribute to Marrone, the ultimate leader of the team. I think they could be putting even more points on the board if they stretched the field more often (why else do we have two track star wideouts?) and pass more on first down just keep the defense honest. The defense is doing a hell of a job considering what they got on the field, but how much better would they be if the offense increased their time of possesion (T.O.P. -17m vs Bengals, -6m vs Browns, -8.5m vs Jets).

 

Granted, the offensive play calling looked a little better last Sunday and it seemed like a sluggish o line and inconsistent passing was the biggest cause of the somewhat anemic offense. But make no mistake: when I can constantly predict the calls from my couch, play calling is a legitimate concern

Pffft! I fart in your general direction you smelly person!

 

You filthy kinnniggett

go away from here

Cue the catapulting farm animals at you now.

 

May i ask you to report back at the end of the season ?

Nate is my hero . No really i love this guy

[CardinalScotts]

was more critical with EJ to me it's suprising how they have stayed afloat with a practice squad guy injuries to Spiller, Jackson, Stevie on offense and been competitive

[John in Jax]

If you watch professional football closely you might realize game plans are not about tricking the other team, but about executing your strengths.

 

I see that you're new to TSW, and from your post above I am certain you are new to watching professional football. Welcome aboard & enjoy the action! LOL

[enlightener]

I don't give two ***** how they score as long as they score.

I do, were talking about offense, why wouldn't you care if the offense cant score? the credit for defensive tds have nothing to do with the offense. Wow, you really said that.

[uncle flap]

I've alluded to this in a few threads now, but it seems pretty clear to me that most of the people who are "Anti-Hackett" simply don't understand what is happening on the field.

 

I'm not saying he's infallible, and I've seen some completely valid criticisms. However, most people have no idea what plays are being called, or how they are designed. Those same people can't be bothered to educate themselves with the WEALTH of great football analysis out there.

 

Since the emergence of the All-22, it's relatively easy to tell what play was called -especially on offense- and almost as easy to determine the difference between a poor call and poor execution. One does not have to subscribe to the NFL's service to access the All-22 footage, plenty of capable writers and bloggers dissect numerous plays every week.

 

Although this will fall on deaf ears, I would suggest to those who are hypercritical of Hackett to read up on "packaged plays," learn about QBs anticipating defensive keys, and perhaps re-watch each Bills game this year to notice the steady expansion of the playbook.

 

Again, I'm not anointing Hackett and Marrone as geniuses, but it seems to me there's a lot more going on than some of you are seeing.

Edited October 24, 2013 by uncle flap

[klos63]

I see that you're new to TSW, and from your post above I am certain you are new to watching professional football. Welcome aboard & enjoy the action! LOL

how clever

[thewildrabbit]

Throughout various threads I have noticed that a lot of you share my opinion in regards to nate hackett: he is often terrible and terribly predictable. I've lost count of the number of times I absolutely KNEW they were going to run the ball (The jets game being the worst example). Constantly doing this on first downs, and often consecutively on the second downs, gets them to 3rd and long which is always a challenge for the offense, as the D knows a pass is coming. Compound this with the hurry up offense, which in my opinion is giving them very little if any advantage, and the D is back on the field before they can find a seat on the bench.

 

Now, I've read the same defense for Hackett all over the place: "Well the bills are scoring 20+ in all the games with a backup qb and injured running backs!"

 

While this is true, to me those facts don't reflect the play calling as much as it does the team's effort, confidence, and resilience, which I would attribute to Marrone, the ultimate leader of the team. I think they could be putting even more points on the board if they stretched the field more often (why else do we have two track star wideouts?) and pass more on first down just keep the defense honest. The defense is doing a hell of a job considering what they got on the field, but how much better would they be if the offense increased their time of possesion (T.O.P. -17m vs Bengals, -6m vs Browns, -8.5m vs Jets).

 

Granted, the offensive play calling looked a little better last Sunday and it seemed like a sluggish o line and inconsistent passing was the biggest cause of the somewhat anemic offense. But make no mistake: when I can constantly predict the calls from my couch, play calling is a legitimate concern

One thing Bills fans need to understand. You have a very, very inexperienced NFL QB's behind center for the Buffalo Bills. If a normal complex offense calls for 30- 50 offensive plays on any given Sunday. You can bet that the Bills game plan will contain only about 20 offensive plays. Now, as the QB gets more experience the playbook will expand as will the play calling. So as the season progresses you will see a more complex offense.

 

They also need to learn that the very best way to protect a young, inexperienced QB is to build a strong running game to take pressure away from him. So stating that, the opposing defense will be stacking the box to first try and stop the run and force the QB to throw to beat them.

 

 

To those that are stating the Bills offense is very predictable, and almost always open with running plays. Well, they opened the game against the Dolphins with mostly passing plays.

 

First play, Lewis pass play, QB was promptly sacked at the 11 for -5 yards.

Second play, incomplete pass to SJ

Third play, Lewis short pass left side to F Jackson for 21 yards. Jackson hurt and return questionable

Fourth play, Spiller run LG for one yard.

Fifth play, Lewis pass to Spiller, short right for -5

Sixth play, Lewis pass incomplete to Choice

seventh play, punt.

 

The Bills finished that game with 32 attempts passing and 30 attempts rushing, very balanced and more passing then I thought they would do. They only averaged 3.0 YPC rushing with both Jackson & Spiller playing injured. The difference in this game was with the good play of the Bills defense and the bad play of Miami QB Talleywhacker.

 

 

 

Then, any given QB is only as good as his surrounding cast, O Line, WR's, TE's, RB's.

 

Look at 2x super bowl winning NY Giants with Eli Manning at QB this season with no running game, and a bad O line. So you have the 1-6 NY Giants. With almost no good RB this season opposing teams are keying on making Eli throw over and over to win games. The Giants can't run block, can't pass block

points for 126. Points against 216 WoW! Eli Manning leads the NFL with 15 INT's. Basically this same team won a super bowl. They have gone thru 6 different RB's and they all are stinking so bad its putting the QB in constant 3rd and longs.

Same HC, Same QB, Same WR's, Same Playcaller, Same game plan, and its not working because they can't establish a run game, and they are also having difficulty pass blocking with a bad (injured) O line.

 

 

So, all of the Bills fans that kept stating that the #1 priority of a team is to find a QB can now look at this, and understand, you had better build the O line first! Or have a running QB, and quick timing passing routes

[billsgpr88]

I think it is more about certain situations where Hackett has displayed his ineptness. Like the last drive before the half in Miami. Or the Frank Summers FB run that gets like 30 yds and they line right back up and try to run it again. It was a promising drive that ended up getting no points. IIRC.

 

I am sorry, Hackett is in over his head. Can he get better, sure. But this is the NFL, nepotism has killed many coaches. Hackett better get more creative and adjust as the year goes along or Marrone will need to fire him.

 

The other thing i would like to point out is that Hacketts limited plays are going to become more and more easy to diagnose by opposing DC. The second half of the season will be very telling. IF Hackett does not adjust this O will be one of the worse in the NFL . Yes, everyone will point to rookie this and back up that. Good coaches find ways to disguise weakness'. I would also contend that the SJ out/hurt argument is not a good one. Woods has every bit as much talent right now as SJ does. Thad is a Duke grad. EJ carries himself as very intelligent and confident. At some point the CJ run to start most drives has got to go. it almost always has the Bills looking at a 2nd and 9.

 

These. Two perfect examples of situational incompetence:

 

Running the hurry up in the 4th quarter against the pats, punting to them twice when we had the lead and running as little time off the clock as possible,

 

1st and 13 on our own three in OT and running on 1st AND 2nd down when the next score wins (against Bengals). This alone should have been disconcerting to every bills fan watching

[Sig1Hunter]

...But this is the NFL, nepotism has killed many coaches...

 

Wait. I'm confused. Hackett and Marrone are related?

[ganesh]

Why are fans so fixated on "play calling?"

 

Does our offense fail because they called the "wrong" play? Or because of lousy execution?

+1. It is more often the later. This is a new team with a new attitude and we as fans should enjoy the ride. This team and coaching staff have the "it" factor to right this ship that has been wobbling along the banks of Lake Eerie for over a decade.

 

These. Two perfect examples of situational incompetence:

 

Running the hurry up in the 4th quarter against the pats, punting to them twice when we had the lead and running as little time off the clock as possible,

 

1st and 13 on our own three in OT and running on 1st AND 2nd down when the next score wins (against Bengals). This alone should have been disconcerting to every bills fan watching

 

OK. Two instances in 28 Quarters of play is not enough sample size to evaluate.

[billsgpr88]

+1. It is more often the later. This is a new team with a new attitude and we as fans should enjoy the ride. This team and coaching staff have the "it" factor to right this ship that has been wobbling along the banks of Lake Eerie for over a decade.

 

 

 

OK. Two instances in 28 Quarters of play is not enough sample size to evaluate.

 

Trust me, there were a lot more instances than just two but these were the most obvious ones that popped in to my mind. And they were two very crucial moments in the game, and it was clear that the play calling was poor. Honestly, I watched that Bengals game with a bunch of friends and they were all dumbstruck by the running plays on the 3 yard line (most of them weren't bills fans). I mean, is it just me or does running the ball twice on 1st and 13, then on 2nd and 11 just insane? I knew we lost the game then and there. And btw, there's a difference between 'sample' and 'example'. If you want a sample to evaluate, watch the entire jets game again