To those of you who defend Hackett

[klos63]

I'm not talking about tricking the defense, I'm talking about sustaining longer drives and utilizing the wr talent we have. If a D knows the run is coming, clearly they can stack the box and limit the ability to get anything more than 4 or 5 yards at best. We are still succeeding despite this because freddy is one of the smartest running backs I've ever seen, but imho it's asking too much to rely on this to bring you all the way down the field. We've seen stevie, chandler, and woods bail us out on third and longs several times this year; if it works when the D knows we're going to pass and we can still do it, isn't that a sign of what the passing game is capable of? And the very few times they've gone deep they have been successful. BTW, just because you have a different opinion from mine, it doesn't mean that either one of us is an idiot, so try showing some respect. People are generally pretty cool on this forum, you don't have to be a sarcastic turd in the swimming pool that is TSW

Sorry to have offended you. But very simply, we have a strong running game and a weak passing game. The weak passing game is because we lack the talent at QB and we lack the talent at WR, both positions look like they can improve but until then, running the ball is what we need to do. I don't have the stats in front of me, but I'm not so sure we have been very sucessful on deep passes. I don't agree with you that because we've converted some third and longs that our passing game is capable of more. If it was, we would have a higher success rate on 3rd down, which right now is pretty low. We almost always throw on third and long, so the proof is in the stats on third down conversions. We are not there yet. We need to avoid those situations and we do that by running the ball often , on first and second down and by doing it well.

[NoSaint]

room for improvement? sure. better than i expected with an OC, QBs, and WRs who outside of stevie have combined for about 20 nfl games TOTAL, a TE coming off ACL surgery and a starting guard who was bad enough to be cut midseason? yup. and thats ignoring the injuries.

Edited October 23, 2013 by NoSaint

[Buffaloed in Pa]

So,we are sitting here watching the game Sunday,and we are wondering where is the deep ball. Oh they will say it was the defense not allowing it. We think maybe it was because Lewis would start connecting again. This would put doubt in fans and players minds when EJ heals. Hmnn ,one deep throw and he hits T.J.

[thewildrabbit]

What is it with today's Bills fans, they used to be some of the most knowledgeable fans anywhere!

 

Stop the complaining and think about how much NFL game experience EJ has, how much NFL game experience does Thad Lewis have? Oh Wait, let me answer! Almost none!!

 

 

Could it be that the HC / OC needs to keep the offense extremely limited-simple because of lack of playing time for Bills QB's!! Could it be that the HC / OC want to run a hurry up-no huddle offense to keep the opposing defensive substitutions limited or non existent so the offense (rookie QB) doesn't have to contend with fresh pass rushers or nickle - dime coverage on third and long. This would also limit the defensive looks and formations the rookie QB's need to read and set the protections for.

 

If the Bills play calling seems simplistic...IT'S BECAUSE IT IS!!! BECAUSE THE BILLS HAVE A QB JUST OFF THE PRACTICE SQUAD!!. Seriously guys, get a freaking grip!

 

 

Look at what this OC has had to contend with, a flaming PoS at LG. Injuries to the #1 WR, the #1 RB. The Bills are currently #17 in total offense & #26 in total defense. Now look at 2012 the Bills were 19th in total offense & 22nd in defense. So stats wise the Bills defense is playing worse and the offense is better.

After 7 games the Bills are 3-4, which is the same as last season. Only this year the Bills have some VERY inexperienced QB's behind center, and no Andy levitre at LG.

Edited October 23, 2013 by FeartheLosing

[Saint Doug]

While this is true, to me those facts don't reflect the play calling as much as it does the team's effort, confidence, and resilience, which I would attribute to Marrone, the ultimate leader of the team.

 

I think you need to attribute a little bit more to Marrone. He is a former OC who is overseeing and ultimately responsible for the actions of a first-time OC.

[BillsClinton]

The ability to sustain drives is most important to me, and that seems to be what Hackett has had trouble with. Other than the Miami game, the time of possession has been woefully out of our favor. This, I believe has less to do with a hurry up offense but rather the inability to string together consecutive first downs resulting in a score. This is as much an indictment of play-calling as it is consistency of execution. But seriously, it wouldn't hurt to throw in a few more screens, spread the offense out, and keep a few different looks out there.

[The Big Cat]

The ability to sustain drives is most important to me, and that seems to be what Hackett has had trouble with. Other than the Miami game, the time of possession has been woefully out of our favor. This, I believe has less to do with a hurry up offense but rather the inability to string together consecutive first downs resulting in a score. This is as much an indictment of play-calling as it is consistency of execution. But seriously, it wouldn't hurt to throw in a few more screens, spread the offense out, and keep a few different looks out there.

 

Why? How? How is this conclusion reached? When does this become the logical outcome of thought?

[Chuck Schick]

Not trying to sound like a jerk, but casual sports fans (and probably not-so-casual ones too) seem to equate calling plays in football to a catcher calling pitches in baseball. There are SO many variables that dictate what play is called, and even more that can make a play go well or poorly once the ball's snapped.

A case in point is our old friend Kevin Gilbride....the guy ran what we all thought was just a horrendous offense while here in Buffalo. Then miraculously at age 55 (or whatever he was), he leads a dynamic offense to the Super Bowl a few years later. I seriously doubt he didn't want to do the same things in Buff, he just didn't have the talent, match-ups, etc to make it happen.

My point is these guys have way more knowledge, information, and skill than we can imagine.

[34-78-83]

What is it with today's Bills fans, they used to be some of the most knowledgeable fans anywhere!

 

Stop the complaining and think about how much NFL game experience EJ has, how much NFL game experience does Thad Lewis have? Oh Wait, let me answer! Almost none!!

 

 

Could it be that the HC / OC needs to keep the offense extremely limited-simple because of lack of playing time for Bills QB's!! Could it be that the HC / OC want to run a hurry up-no huddle offense to keep the opposing defensive substitutions limited or non existent so the offense (rookie QB) doesn't have to contend with fresh pass rushers or nickle - dime coverage on third and long. This would also limit the defensive looks and formations the rookie QB's need to read and set the protections for.

 

If the Bills play calling seems simplistic...IT'S BECAUSE IT IS!!! BECAUSE THE BILLS HAVE A QB JUST OFF THE PRACTICE SQUAD!!. Seriously guys, get a freaking grip!

 

 

Look at what this OC has had to contend with, a flaming PoS at LG. Injuries to the #1 WR, the #1 RB. The Bills are currently #17 in total offense & #26 in total defense. Now look at 2012 the Bills were 19th in total offense & 22nd in defense. So stats wise the Bills defense is playing worse and the offense is better.

After 7 games the Bills are 3-4, which is the same as last season. Only this year the Bills have some VERY inexperienced QB's behind center, and no Andy levitre at LG.

 

Love this post

 

While half the crowd here tried to scramble for "reasons" our FO made a terrible hire here or there so they can be "right" about it, the Bills are slowly but surely building a real team here. A team that has a plan with goals and direction. A team that is not perfect but learning to compete week in week out, which is extremely difficult even for the best of teams to do.

Edited October 23, 2013 by 34-78-83

[Max997]

 

You're suggesting extreme, unmitigated incompetence the likes of which is just as unlikely and spurious as the claims that our offense is secretly the best in the NFL.

 

So, instead he should design every play for Spiller to be bounced to the outside? He has to go up the gut every one in a while. And when he does he gets 3-6 yards...consistently. It's the plays that he's moving laterally behind the line that haven't worked.

 

Plus, there's a lot of revisionist history here as to how flawlessly Chan used Spiller last year, when a.) everyone was SCREAMING for him to use Spiller like Hackett does now and b.) he used him in dual sets with Freddy about as often as Hackett has also. See: Easley, Marcus.

 

It's just you.

 

I don't know what to make of your first comment...reads like Dennis miller wrote it

 

At what point did I say Spiller needs the ball outside every play? I said you can't give it to him up the middle every other play bc he isn't that type of back. The lack of creativity with Spiller is alarming and just dumb

 

Obviously 80% was an exaggeration but they run on first down A LOT

 

And it's not just me

 

What is it with today's Bills fans, they used to be some of the most knowledgeable fans anywhere!

 

Stop the complaining and think about how much NFL game experience EJ has, how much NFL game experience does Thad Lewis have? Oh Wait, let me answer! Almost none!!

 

 

Could it be that the HC / OC needs to keep the offense extremely limited-simple because of lack of playing time for Bills QB's!! Could it be that the HC / OC want to run a hurry up-no huddle offense to keep the opposing defensive substitutions limited or non existent so the offense (rookie QB) doesn't have to contend with fresh pass rushers or nickle - dime coverage on third and long. This would also limit the defensive looks and formations the rookie QB's need to read and set the protections for.

 

If the Bills play calling seems simplistic...IT'S BECAUSE IT IS!!! BECAUSE THE BILLS HAVE A QB JUST OFF THE PRACTICE SQUAD!!. Seriously guys, get a freaking grip!

 

 

Look at what this OC has had to contend with, a flaming PoS at LG. Injuries to the #1 WR, the #1 RB. The Bills are currently #17 in total offense & #26 in total defense. Now look at 2012 the Bills were 19th in total offense & 22nd in defense. So stats wise the Bills defense is playing worse and the offense is better.

After 7 games the Bills are 3-4, which is the same as last season. Only this year the Bills have some VERY inexperienced QB's behind center, and no Andy levitre at LG.

 

The play calling is no different with Lewis then it was for Manuel

Edited October 23, 2013 by Max997

[atlbillsfan1975]

I think it is more about certain situations where Hackett has displayed his ineptness. Like the last drive before the half in Miami. Or the Frank Summers FB run that gets like 30 yds and they line right back up and try to run it again. It was a promising drive that ended up getting no points. IIRC.

 

I am sorry, Hackett is in over his head. Can he get better, sure. But this is the NFL, nepotism has killed many coaches. Hackett better get more creative and adjust as the year goes along or Marrone will need to fire him.

 

The other thing i would like to point out is that Hacketts limited plays are going to become more and more easy to diagnose by opposing DC. The second half of the season will be very telling. IF Hackett does not adjust this O will be one of the worse in the NFL . Yes, everyone will point to rookie this and back up that. Good coaches find ways to disguise weakness'. I would also contend that the SJ out/hurt argument is not a good one. Woods has every bit as much talent right now as SJ does. Thad is a Duke grad. EJ carries himself as very intelligent and confident. At some point the CJ run to start most drives has got to go. it almost always has the Bills looking at a 2nd and 9.

Edited October 23, 2013 by atlbillsfan1975

[thewildrabbit]

The play calling is no different with Lewis then it was for Manuel

Where did i say it was?

 

If you read my post it states both EJ & Lewis have almost no NFL playing experience. Of course the play calling is going to be limited / simplistic for both QB's. I can only think that with more playing time under their belts the Bills QB's will eventually see a more complex offense at some point.

 

 

To the fans wanting more deep passing plays. Those plays take significantly more time to develop, and this offense is predicated on getting the ball out very quickly to avoid sacks. Plus with the very worst player in the NFL at LG (Colin Brown) the Bills QB's haven't had that much time to throw deep very often.

[mjt328]

From my observation, I don't think Hackett is doing a very good job.

 

 

Sure, if you cherry-pick certain statistics (such as this 20 points each week thing), you can make it appear like our offense is doing OK. But that's why statistics can be misleading. Take a closer look:

 

By game, the team has scored: 21, 24, 20, 23, 24, 24, 21. That's an average of 22.7 points per game - good for 16th in the NFL. Personally, I don't think that's very good. We should expect better. Most weeks, 22-23 points will result in a loss. The Bills have yet to break 25 in any game so far this season.

 

In the course of 7 games, you will also see that:

- 2 touchdowns were defensive scores

- 7 scores (2 touchdowns and 5 field goals) came after turnovers that put the Bills in scoring position at the start of the drive

- 3 scores (all touchdowns) came after punt returns already had them in scoring position at the start of the drive

 

 

No matter how many points we have scored... the simple fact is, the Bills offense is not sustaining drives and consistently picking up 1st downs. I think play calling is a major factor. Since Hackett handles that aspect, I have no problem calling him out.

 

I don't agree with the critics that say all we do is Run-Run-Pass. It's not true. However, I do think that Hackett needs to do a better job of mixing things up and keeping the defense off balance. If the defense is crowding the line, don't keep calling runs between the tackles over and over. I want to see some play-action, screens, quick slants - things to keep the defenders honest. Put the QB under center sometimes. Etc., Etc...

 

I also don't buy the injuries/rookie players/inexperience excuse. We have a lot more talent than anyone (including our own fans) gives us credit for. Hackett is getting a pretty good effort from his players, including EJ Manuel and Thad Lewis. He's also got a strong offensive line, a good group of receivers and the best RB-duo in the NFL.

[NoSaint]

 

The play calling is no different with Lewis then it was for Manuel

 

its a rookie qb and a brand new qb == and still a squad full of very young receivers. I imagine the complex reads, and next level passing concepts are working their way in there slowly. until you have a qb and 3-4 receivers that can all execute consistently its hard to roll something out in games.

[The Big Cat]

From my observation, I don't think Hackett is doing a very good job.

 

 

Sure, if you cherry-pick certain statistics (such as this 20 points each week thing), you can make it appear like our offense is doing OK. But that's why statistics can be misleading. Take a closer look:

 

By game, the team has scored: 21, 24, 20, 23, 24, 24, 21. That's an average of 22.7 points per game - good for 16th in the NFL. Personally, I don't think that's very good. We should expect better. Most weeks, 22-23 points will result in a loss. The Bills have yet to break 25 in any game so far this season.

 

In the course of 7 games, you will also see that:

- 2 touchdowns were defensive scores

- 7 scores (2 touchdowns and 5 field goals) came after turnovers that put the Bills in scoring position at the start of the drive

- 3 scores (all touchdowns) came after punt returns already had them in scoring position at the start of the drive

 

 

No matter how many points we have scored... the simple fact is, the Bills offense is not sustaining drives and consistently picking up 1st downs. I think play calling is a major factor. Since Hackett handles that aspect, I have no problem calling him out.

 

I don't agree with the critics that say all we do is Run-Run-Pass. It's not true. However, I do think that Hackett needs to do a better job of mixing things up and keeping the defense off balance. If the defense is crowding the line, don't keep calling runs between the tackles over and over. I want to see some play-action, screens, quick slants - things to keep the defenders honest. Put the QB under center sometimes. Etc., Etc...

 

I also don't buy the injuries/rookie players/inexperience excuse. We have a lot more talent than anyone (including our own fans) gives us credit for. Hackett is getting a pretty good effort from his players, including EJ Manuel and Thad Lewis. He's also got a strong offensive line, a good group of receivers and the best RB-duo in the NFL.

 

I think you countered claims of cherry picking with a little cherry picking yourself, but one point is extremely valid: they do not sustain enough drives.

 

First downs as a percentage of plays run: 26% good for 31st in the league. For perspective, Denver is first at 39%, 32 team average is 31% and the one team we're ahead of: Jacksonville.

[xsoldier54]

Throughout various threads I have noticed that a lot of you share my opinion in regards to nate hackett: he is often terrible and terribly predictable. I've lost count of the number of times I absolutely KNEW they were going to run the ball (The jets game being the worst example). Constantly doing this on first downs, and often consecutively on the second downs, gets them to 3rd and long which is always a challenge for the offense, as the D knows a pass is coming. Compound this with the hurry up offense, which in my opinion is giving them very little if any advantage, and the D is back on the field before they can find a seat on the bench.

 

Now, I've read the same defense for Hackett all over the place: "Well the bills are scoring 20+ in all the games with a backup qb and injured running backs!"

 

While this is true, to me those facts don't reflect the play calling as much as it does the team's effort, confidence, and resilience, which I would attribute to Marrone, the ultimate leader of the team. I think they could be putting even more points on the board if they stretched the field more often (why else do we have two track star wideouts?) and pass more on first down just keep the defense honest. The defense is doing a hell of a job considering what they got on the field, but how much better would they be if the offense increased their time of possesion (T.O.P. -17m vs Bengals, -6m vs Browns, -8.5m vs Jets).

 

Granted, the offensive play calling looked a little better last Sunday and it seemed like a sluggish o line and inconsistent passing was the biggest cause of the somewhat anemic offense. But make no mistake: when I can constantly predict the calls from my couch, play calling is a legitimate concern

I will defend Hacket. The team has scored at least 21 points in each of it's seven games. They are 5th in the league in rushing. Enough criticism. We aren't even halfway through his first season. They have been competitive in every game. The offense is a work in progress, granted, but this recurring theme that when everything doesn't go right on offense it is the OC's fault because he is inept is absolute nonsense. Until you achieve the level of experience in coaching that Nate Hacket has, I'll take his play calling over yours any day.

[thewildrabbit]

I think it is more about certain situations where Hackett has displayed his ineptness. Like the last drive before the half in Miami. Or the Frank Summers FB run that gets like 30 yds and they line right back up and try to run it again. It was a promising drive that ended up getting no points. IIRC.

 

I am sorry, Hackett is in over his head. Can he get better, sure. But this is the NFL, nepotism has killed many coaches. Hackett better get more creative and adjust as the year goes along or Marrone will need to fire him.

 

The other thing i would like to point out is that Hacketts limited plays are going to become more and more easy to diagnose by opposing DC. The second half of the season will be very telling. IF Hackett does not adjust this O will be one of the worse in the NFL . Yes, everyone will point to rookie this and back up that. Good coaches find ways to disguise weakness'. I would also contend that the SJ out/hurt argument is not a good one. Woods has every bit as much talent right now as SJ does. Thad is a Duke grad. EJ carries himself as very intelligent and confident. At some point the CJ run to start most drives has got to go. it almost always has the Bills looking at a 2nd and 9.

How do you call running a similar same play over again that had just worked off RT for 16 yards with FB Summers Inept? It was in fact a play up the middle behind Eric Wood and not off RT, so it was a similar play, and not the same play. I totally get the Bills OC that if you find something that works try it again with a little variation.

 

Miami has the 13th ranked defense, and are 9th against the run in the NFL. Yet the Buffalo Bills managed to win this game.

 

Bills fans are making me sick with all this nit picking over the offense with such inexperienced QB's behind center. Both RB's injured and a new player at LG just off an injury. WR Stevie Johnson injured the last few weeks so he was unable to get timing down on pass routes.

 

 

Wanna complain about something? Just wait until after this next game at the NO Superdome against the 5-1 Saints

Edited October 23, 2013 by FeartheLosing

[The Big Cat]

How to you call running a similar same play over again that had just worked off RT for 16 yards with FB Summers Inept? It was in fact a play up the middle behind Eric Wood and not off RT, so it was a similar play, and not the same play.I totally get that if you find something that works try it again with a little variation.

 

Miami has the 13th ranked defense, and are 9th against the run in the NFL. Yet the Buffalo Bills managed to win this game.

 

Bills fans are making me sick with all this nit picking over the offense with such inexperienced QB's behind center. Both RB's injured and a new player at LG just off an injury. WR Stevie Johnson injured the last few weeks so he was unable to get timing down on pass routes.

 

 

Wanna complain about something? Just wait until after this next game at the NO Superdome against the 5-1 Saints

 

Good that you hinted at this, too: there are more than two types of runs. If it's not a pitch or a toss, it's not simply a "run up the middle."

[thewildrabbit]

its a rookie qb and a brand new qb == and still a squad full of very young receivers. I imagine the complex reads, and next level passing concepts are working their way in there slowly. until you have a qb and 3-4 receivers that can all execute consistently its hard to roll something out in games.

It drives me nuts that all these fans are coming out of the woodwork to whine about a rookie OC / HC, with so many injuries, and such inexperienced QB's.

 

Where were these people the last 3 years when they could make legitimate complaints about a very, very NFL experienced HC / OC / QB?

[NoSaint]

 

 

Good that you hinted at this, too: there are more than two types of runs. If it's not a pitch or a toss, it's not simply a "run up the middle."

 

id be curious (but not curious enough to do it myself) to see the split of RG vs LG, shotgun vs traditional formations, different blocking (did guys pull, or just heads up) did the back go straight ahead or cut back.....

 

simply saying "run up the middle" is a play in tecmo, not the nfl. since we have run a lot in the middle id be curious to see more about the techniques being used.