purple haze Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 A vet? 3 career starts? Are you joking? How do you judge a ceiling? Or a floor? What was Leinhart's ceiling his first year? Or Leaf's? Thad has been around the league. He is a young vet. He doesn't have a lot of game experience, but he has been in the league on rosters before this season. He's got a strong arm, he's gritty, good mobility. He also has seen things EJ has not seen before. I judge a cieling and a floor by looking at their performance. EJ is playing commensurately with Thad and Thad has been in the league a few more years. Simple as that. Leinart's cieling was low because he did not put in the work and he was not known for putting in the extra work the great QB's do. Leaf had off-field concerns before he was even drafted. That tells me there is a cieling there under the wrong circumstances and sure enough... Thad is a good backup, but he doesn't have EJ's potential, based on physical dimension. You name me Thad's best quality and EJ has more of it and he's only a rookie. This ain't rocket science and it's no disrepect intended to Thad, who I loved at Duke. He's the guy you love as the backup QB. A good soldier. Corageous. Capable of making plays and keeping a team in the game. Just like a good backup does. EJ can win a team a game. See the Carolina game for an example.
Tintonfallsbillsfan Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 Lets say the Bills hit the bye at 6-5 wth the easy past of the schedule ahead. Meaning Lewis has beaten three of the following saints, pitt, jets and chiefs. what do you do ?
K-9 Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 Lets say the Bills hit the bye at 6-5 wth the easy past of the schedule ahead. Meaning Lewis has beaten three of the following saints, pitt, jets and chiefs. what do you do ? If he's the difference in those games, let him continue to be the difference. If we are winning those games like yesterday, on the strength defense and turnovers, then EJ goes back in. While Thad did nothing to lose the game yesterday, he didn't do anything to win it, either. EJ has shown he can win a game. GO BILLS!!!
FireChan Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) Everyone ignored it because it's not quantifiable in statistics. He's asking for someone to quantify an opinion. If you want an argument as to why EJ belongs in there instead of Thad, my answer would be quite simple: he's had the team in contention to win every game, and delivered wins against teams like Carolina (who boasts the #3 defense in the NFL) and Baltimore, the defending Superbowl champions. The team also looked to be well on their way to beating Cleveland, who has a top 10 defense, on a short week before EJ was injured and Tuel couldn't engineer a drive lasting longer than 3 plays. Thad hasn't played markedly better than EJ, so there's no reason to switch from the guy that appears to be your best bet for a franchise QB. He acquitted himself nicely against Cincinnati, and played rather poorly against a Miami defense that is ranked 25th in the NFL against the pass. Fair enough? Taking the bold statement first: totally irrelevant. How other teams grade your first round pick means absolutely nothing. Jerry Jones thought Quincy Carter was worth a 2nd round pick. 32 teams thought Tom Brady shouldn't have been drafted in the first 5 rounds. Then there's Russell Wilson...you get the point. As for your list of things Thad does better, here's my opinion: - his deep ball against Cinci looked great...not so much against Miami - EJ puts plenty of zip on his passes; he also shows great touch when required...Thad's zip is just fine as well; I see absolutely no appreciable difference - EJ has read defenses far better, taking only 13 sacks in 3.5 games despite facing pressure on a greater percentage of plays (if NFL.com's OL stats are to be believed). He has also done better and finding his 2nd/3rd options in the passing game when his first read isn't there. Thad seems to have more difficulty getting off his first read, which has lead to sacks and hurried throws. - Both have done an admirable job avoiding pressure; Thad seems to have more quicks, which is natural of a smaller, slighter guy. EJ is plenty nimble enough to get the job done (see the final drive against Carolina) - I agree on the better vs. better point - Agree on the "keep us in the game" point - I have to put some blame on Thad for that INT...he held the ball too long and didn't step into the pocket. It's an experience/feel thing for sure; there have been a number of those moments for him in his 2 starts See my reasoning above for why EJ should start. EJ took 8 of those sacks against the Jets. Thad had the majority of his sacks in 1 game as well. Too early to judge. EJ is not as nimble as Thad. Just look at them run. Thad is dancing and making himself less of a target, avoiding injuries. EJ runs in a straight line. Hence why he takes more big hits which leads to more injuries. That's a very bad thing. None of that pick should be blamed on Thad. Not at all. Watch the play again, it's on the highlights. He literally has 2 seconds to get rid of it. Maybe it's just me but i don't even think it's a consideration. EJ is the starter. Thad hasn't been very good. He's been good for maybe 2 quarters for us so far (1st and 4th quarters against Cinci). Other than that he hasn't looked good. He misses a lot of throws and doesn't do anything EJ can't. He looks like a serviceable backup and nothing more really. He's been good for 2 quarters? Unlike EJ "two first downs a game" Manuel? I take it you don't remember going full quarters in almost every game with only 3 and outs? I like EJ, but let's not pretend he's been sustaining drives. Thad has been around the league. He is a young vet. He doesn't have a lot of game experience, but he has been in the league on rosters before this season. He's got a strong arm, he's gritty, good mobility. He also has seen things EJ has not seen before. I judge a cieling and a floor by looking at their performance. EJ is playing commensurately with Thad and Thad has been in the league a few more years. Simple as that. Leinart's cieling was low because he did not put in the work and he was not known for putting in the extra work the great QB's do. Leaf had off-field concerns before he was even drafted. That tells me there is a cieling there under the wrong circumstances and sure enough... Thad is a good backup, but he doesn't have EJ's potential, based on physical dimension. You name me Thad's best quality and EJ has more of it and he's only a rookie. This ain't rocket science and it's no disrepect intended to Thad, who I loved at Duke. He's the guy you love as the backup QB. A good soldier. Corageous. Capable of making plays and keeping a team in the game. Just like a good backup does. EJ can win a team a game. See the Carolina game for an example. You're right, "potential" isn't rocket science, it's crap. It always has been. Or else Tom Brady would've been taken early. Or Wilson. What was Jake Locker's potential? Or Gabbert's? EJ has been bailed out by our defense just as much, if not more than Thad, I wouldn't say he "won" our team any games this year. 2 goal line stands against Carolina to hold them to 6 points instead of 14? 5 picks to beat the Ravens by 3 points? An actual dropped ball returned for a touchdown to keep us in the Pats game? Both players are inconsistent with shining moments as well as stretches of awful in every game. I think this is a much tougher decision to pick starters. I don't think Marrone and co. are worried about Thad in the driver's seat, and I don't think they are rushing EJ back. That speaks volumes. If he's the difference in those games, let him continue to be the difference. If we are winning those games like yesterday, on the strength defense and turnovers, then EJ goes back in. While Thad did nothing to lose the game yesterday, he didn't do anything to win it, either. EJ has shown he can win a game. GO BILLS!!! Thad throwing a perfect 20 yard ball while getting hammered in the face is nothing? Thad at least setting up field goals with next to 0 production on the ground is nothing? Like I said above, every game we have won this year has been on the defense and turnovers. EJ has one scoring drive in his career, and it was on completely blown coverage against the Panthers in their worst game of the season. Edited October 21, 2013 by FireChan
Rocky Landing Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 How many knee injuries does EJ have to sustain to become the backup?
K-9 Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 ... Thad throwing a perfect 20 yard ball while getting hammered in the face is nothing? Thad at least setting up field goals with next to 0 production on the ground is nothing? Like I said above, every game we have won this year has been on the defense and turnovers. EJ has one scoring drive in his career, and it was on completely blown coverage against the Panthers in their worst game of the season. I never said he didn't have any good plays. Just that he didn't do much anything to win the game yesterday. He simply wasn't the difference; our defense and turnovers were. But chicks dig the long ball, so good for that, I guess. But no QB has ever made a living throwing the long ball without having the full route tree in his playbook. As for EJ having one scoring drive in his career, you need to check your math. GO BILLS!!!
FireChan Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 I never said he didn't have any good plays. Just that he didn't do much anything to win the game yesterday. He simply wasn't the difference; our defense and turnovers were. But chicks dig the long ball, so good for that, I guess. But no QB has ever made a living throwing the long ball without having the full route tree in his playbook. As for EJ having one scoring drive in his career, you need to check your math. GO BILLS!!! The defense has been the difference in all of our wins. And you know I meant game-winning drive.
K-9 Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) The defense has been the difference in all of our wins. And you know I meant game-winning drive. No doubt the defense has been the difference. But you can't dismiss the plays that EJ made to contribute to those wins, including the game winning drive against Carolina, which you seem to want to downplay in order to make a point. How about the long drives he engineered in the NE game? Or Baltimore? He flubs a few go routes and you seem to forget the perfect long balls down the seams to Woods and Chandler this year. You may need to cue up some of the previous game tapes. The throw he made to Chandler to set up Woods' TD in the NE game is the high-water mark. Thad Lewis simply can't make that throw. And if Lewis doesn't stop his propensity to stare down his first reads, he's gonna give himself less chances to do so. But chicks dig the long ball. And once so enamored, they can't see the forest for the trees. GO BILLS!!! Edited October 21, 2013 by K-9
FLFan Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 It does not matter how many he wins. He is not the future of this team. I do not care if EJ loses every game. He needs to start. How else will you know? Thad Lewis has an upside of 2nd string but more likely third string. I can't believe people are seriously debating this
KGUNBILLS Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 so far, but EJ will probably start, ya know the whole first round thing even if the backup is better. Ain't that the truth. Well hopefully we can win games with EJ putting up huge numbers like 14-24 for 122 yards.
Rocky Landing Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 It does not matter how many he wins. He is not the future of this team. I do not care if EJ loses every game. He needs to start. How else will you know? Thad Lewis has an upside of 2nd string but more likely third string. I can't believe people are seriously debating this The devotion that some fans have for EJ is weird. " I do not care if EJ loses every game." ??? Really?
K-9 Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 Ain't that the truth. Well hopefully we can win games with EJ putting up huge numbers like 14-24 for 122 yards. How about 27-39 for 296? GO BILLS!!!
FLFan Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 The devotion that some fans have for EJ is weird. " I do not care if EJ loses every game." ??? Really? You misunderstand. The future of the Bills depends on finding along term solution at quarterback. They need a full evaluation of Manuel's potential for that role. Thad Lewis is not the guy. Anyone who thinks so is dillusional. Manuel needs to play. If he is not the guy they need to back to the well.
Boatdrinks Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 Really? I think Thad is better in every conceivable way. Really? While we're all entitled to our respective opinions, yours is not backed up by the numbers. The offensive production has not been better. Yesterday's passing game looked downright remedial at times. TL is doing a good job as a backup, but his time in the league means he should be "better" than EJM at this point. There is a reason guys go undrafted while others get taken with high picks. The difference athletically is obvious to most, and that's what this is about. Manuel has a much greater chance to become a star QB than Lewis does. The Bills have invested a lot in him, and he will be given every opportunity to develop. At least a few seasons at this point, with the injury. That said, if the record were 4-1 (unlikely) , the Bills at 7-5 would probably be in the thick of the WC chase and sitting TL down at that point would be a difficult decision for this staff. That bridge will surely be crossed in the unrealistic case the Bills get to it.
NoSaint Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 Thad has been around the league. He is a young vet. He doesn't have a lot of game experience, but he has been in the league on rosters before this season. He's got a strong arm, he's gritty, good mobility. He also has seen things EJ has not seen before. I judge a cieling and a floor by looking at their performance. EJ is playing commensurately with Thad and Thad has been in the league a few more years. Simple as that. Leinart's cieling was low because he did not put in the work and he was not known for putting in the extra work the great QB's do. Leaf had off-field concerns before he was even drafted. That tells me there is a cieling there under the wrong circumstances and sure enough... Thad is a good backup, but he doesn't have EJ's potential, based on physical dimension. You name me Thad's best quality and EJ has more of it and he's only a rookie. This ain't rocket science and it's no disrepect intended to Thad, who I loved at Duke. He's the guy you love as the backup QB. A good soldier. Corageous. Capable of making plays and keeping a team in the game. Just like a good backup does. EJ can win a team a game. See the Carolina game for an example. I agree totally. I live having Thad as a depth player. Just like I really like Robey as a nickel corner and choice as a third running back. That doesn't mean they should be any threat to ej, cj, or Gilmore. Ej is bigger, faster, stronger has a more dynamic arm but is a bit more erratic due to a lack of experience. Thad is more erratic due to a lack of god given ability. If we waste a couple games finding out ej isn't the answer it's already better than chasing after Thad who I'm confident already isn't the answer. He went undrafted, has been cut, traded for Chris white, sat on the practice squad -- but he's our backup and he had a good first quarter on the field so he will be a legend on this board.
FireChan Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 (edited) No doubt the defense has been the difference. But you can't dismiss the plays that EJ made to contribute to those wins, including the game winning drive against Carolina, which you seem to want to downplay in order to make a point. How about the long drives he engineered in the NE game? Or Baltimore? He flubs a few go routes and you seem to forget the perfect long balls down the seams to Woods and Chandler this year. You may need to cue up some of the previous game tapes. The throw he made to Chandler to set up Woods' TD in the NE game is the high-water mark. Thad Lewis simply can't make that throw. And if Lewis doesn't stop his propensity to stare down his first reads, he's gonna give himself less chances to do so. But chicks dig the long ball. And once so enamored, they can't see the forest for the trees. GO BILLS!!! You mean the same 4th and 17 pass that was arguably the last chance of the game that Thad threw perfectly against the Bengals for a TD? And Thad's played 3 games. EJ was staring down his receivers a lot in his first starts as well. I'm also pretty sure our 3rd down conversion percentage is better under Thad than it was under the "drive-sustainer" EJ but go ahead and pretend his one drive per game was good enough. That's why we' were 2-3 under ol' EJ and his high octane offense, he was so great at producing drives. Didn't we abolish the no-huddle because EJ ran us off the field in 30 seconds? And keep strawmanning with the deep ball line, god knows repeating the same thing over and over gives your argument credence. Edited October 22, 2013 by FireChan
Bangarang Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 (edited) He's been good for 2 quarters? Unlike EJ "two first downs a game" Manuel? I take it you don't remember going full quarters in almost every game with only 3 and outs? I like EJ, but let's not pretend he's been sustaining drives. Yes 2 quarters. He wasn't good yesterday and was not good in quarters 2 and 3 in the Cinci game. The point of the thread is about Thad starting over EJ when healthy. For that to happen, Thad needs to be noticeably better. He isn't. Both have had periods of not being able to move the ball. Thad does things well and things not so well. He completed a few deep balls and people are trying to fabricate a QB controversy. It's a joke. He looks like what he is, a serviceable backup. Thad hasn't shown me anything that makes me believe he is better than anything a EJ is capable of. Edited October 22, 2013 by Bangarang
K-9 Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 Really? While we're all entitled to our respective opinions, yours is not backed up by the numbers. The offensive production has not been better. Yesterday's passing game looked downright remedial at times. TL is doing a good job as a backup, but his time in the league means he should be "better" than EJM at this point. There is a reason guys go undrafted while others get taken with high picks. The difference athletically is obvious to most, and that's what this is about. Manuel has a much greater chance to become a star QB than Lewis does. The Bills have invested a lot in him, and he will be given every opportunity to develop. At least a few seasons at this point, with the injury. That said, if the record were 4-1 (unlikely) , the Bills at 7-5 would probably be in the thick of the WC chase and sitting TL down at that point would be a difficult decision for this staff. That bridge will surely be crossed in the unrealistic case the Bills get to it. Unless Lewis elevates his game a lot and is the driving force behind those victories and is CLEARLY superior on the field, I don't think it's a hard decision at all for the staff to turn it back over to EJ upon his return. Not in the least. GO BILLS!!!
BarleyNY Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 Lewis should be commended for stepping up and being a part of this win. But how can anyone claim that he has shown he is viable starter material? Or that he has a big upside? The jury might still be out on EJ, but Lewis hasn't exactly lit it up and shown he can be the man at QB.
K-9 Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 You mean the same 4th and 17 pass that was arguably the last chance of the game that Thad threw perfectly against the Bengals for a TD? And Thad's played 3 games. EJ was staring down his receivers a lot in his first starts as well. I'm also pretty sure our 3rd down conversion percentage is better under Thad than it was under the "drive-sustainer" EJ but go ahead and pretend his one drive per game was good enough. That's why we' were 2-3 under ol' EJ and his high octane offense, he was so great at producing drives. Didn't we abolish the no-huddle because EJ ran us off the field in 30 seconds? And keep strawmanning with the deep ball line, god knows repeating the same thing over and over gives your argument credence. Right. Strawmanning. I love the irony. If you feel compelled to dissect every pass, by all means have at it. I'm not impressed. "Superior in every conceivable way." That's your statement. Own it. I'll look for Thad Lewis in the Pro Bowl in the near future then. In the meantime, I'm comforted by the fact that NOBODY I know agrees that Lewis is superior to EJ in ANY way, let alone in EVERY way. GO BILLS!!! Lewis should be commended for stepping up and being a part of this win. But how can anyone claim that he has shown he is viable starter material? Or that he has a big upside? The jury might still be out on EJ, but Lewis hasn't exactly lit it up and shown he can be the man at QB. That's the point. He needs to step up and TAKE the phucking job. He ain't even close to doing that at the moment. GO BILLS!!!
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