For those of you missing Levitre

[jester43]

All of them. LG is single handedly holding back this team.

 

Face it, Levitre isn't worth what he got paid. Not many guards are. The Titans signed him and drafted a G with a top 10 (rarely happens) and still struggle to run the ball.

 

Again, the problem isn't that the Bills let AL walk. It's that Brown isn't good enough. But LG is still one of the most replaceable positions in football. And you're delusional if you think our record is any different if we had LEvitre.

Yeah and they could have replaced him with CHAD EFFING RINEHART for about 1 million a year! he wasn't Joe D but he's a lot better than the garbage we've seen this year. at LG. think he could have made the switch.

 

We had a decent OL last year for the first time in FOREVER and now we're back where we started. Is there any doubt that Spillers problems and EJs sacks aren't a direct result of hte bills getting complacent?

[C.Biscuit97]

Yeah and they could have replaced him with CHAD EFFING RINEHART for about 1 million a year! he wasn't Joe D but he's a lot better than the garbage we've seen this year. at LG. think he could have made the switch.

 

We had a decent OL last year for the first time in FOREVER and now we're back where we started. Is there any doubt that Spillers problems and EJs sacks aren't a direct result of hte bills getting complacent?

 

They are 3rd in the NFL is rushing and given up 15 sacks (8 out which happened in one road game against a good D). Look, Brown is not good and Levitre is a pretty good guard. But how much better is it going to get for $8 million/ year for a LG?

 

Again, people don't look into the future. Guys are going to be up for new deals (Dareus, Spiller, Gilmore, etc.). You know how you lock good players up early? Don't get into salary cap jail by locking up LGs to big money deals.

 

Pick the right guard in the draft or free agency (Matt Slauson would have been a good cheap pick up).

[Beerball]

 

Drop the personal attacks. They are coming from all directions and they need to end now. Thanks.

[Nitro]

Levitre wanted more money that the Bills thought he was worth. They, like other teams, place a value on different positions so they can manage the cap. I think that is why they are having the dispute with Byrd on his contract. Levitre is playing adequately in Tennessee but not to the level he is being paid. Bills could have and should have done better in addressing the OG issue. I will assume that they will address it in next Springs draft.

[opfball91]

It was the opposite of us signing Derrick Dockery. A solid guard but nothing more (if not less than that for Dockery). I loved Levitre and would have loved him for 4-5mil a year but nothing to what he got paid in Tennessee.

[BuffaloBillsMagic1]

Living here in Banjo land, I get to listen to sports talk every morning about teams I could care less about in all honesty, but it's better than nothing, so I tune in, really just to see what other sports radio shows sound like, compared to ours. So, short story long, the big topic as of late is how Chris Johnson has been struggling, and not able to break runs on the inside this year, and guess whose name came up in conversation? nope.... guess again... yes, they were talking about Andy Levitre, and they were not raving about the guy in any way. In fact, they feel like they may have overpaid for what is being perceived as middling talent. They were concerned about his run blocking mostly, and other names along the offensive line as well, it wasn't a Levitre bash fest, but I was surprised to hear that he wasn't the second coming of Jesus Christ in guard form. From all the comments around here, you's think we let the "all mighty" walk(on water to tennessee at that), and bashed the front office for doing so.

 

Maybe.... Juuuuuust maybe.... our front office was very smart in not over paying for a guard, even if we didn't have a better alternative to replace him. sometimes you have to let a guy walk, especially one who isn't blowing it up on his new team.

 

 

Take this for what it's worth, just thought it would be nice to show a different side to what was perceived as a mistake in not keeping a guy.

The problem is ou replacement is "Turnstyle" Brown. Have you ever watched him play?????That is why weraelly miss levire..., and the fact that we are over 20 mill below the cap...

[Homey D. Clown]

In fairness, we're fans of the only franchise that would have a press conference to introduce Vince Young (let alone sign him).

 

I may just put this in my signature... so funny

[jester43]

They are 3rd in the NFL is rushing and given up 15 sacks (8 out which happened in one road game against a good D). Look, Brown is not good and Levitre is a pretty good guard. But how much better is it going to get for $8 million/ year for a LG?

 

you cannot watch these games and tell me the running game hasn't taken a step backward. i know, it's the OCs fault

[BADOLBILZ]

you cannot watch these games and tell me the running game hasn't taken a step backward. i know, it's the OCs fault

 

Not only has it taken a step back in per snap productivity......who wouldn't have wanted to see if the line would actually IMPROVE with another year together. Detractors want to isolate Levitre and his contract.....but it was his turn to get paid. The bulk of the upcoming big contracts on this roster are years down the road. Paying Levitre now made sense, but if not, don't leave yourself in such a bind at the position that you are thinking about drafting another guard early to repair the gaping hole in your line. I mean is Mario Williams worth his money? Not stand alone.........but without him this team is probably 0-5. This season has gone the way of the pass rush.....and he has been most of it. For that matter, the Bills lost to the Jets because they couldn't contain the Jets pass rush. And Brown was most of the problem. So yeah, I think having Levitre here would have made a difference in the W-L record of this team. I don't know if anyone could have helped Tuel in Cleveland but the Patriot and Jets games were very winnable and Colin Brown just killed them in both games. Wait until this team gets out on the road for a stretch.

[thebandit27]

Not only has it taken a step back in per snap productivity......who wouldn't have wanted to see if the line would actually IMPROVE with another year together. Detractors want to isolate Levitre and his contract.....but it was his turn to get paid. The bulk of the upcoming big contracts on this roster are years down the road. Paying Levitre now made sense, but if not, don't leave yourself in such a bind at the position that you are thinking about drafting another guard early to repair the gaping hole in your line. I mean is Mario Williams worth his money? Not stand alone.........but without him this team is probably 0-5. This season has gone the way of the pass rush.....and he has been most of it. For that matter, the Bills lost to the Jets because they couldn't contain the Jets pass rush. And Brown was most of the problem. So yeah, I think having Levitre here would have made a difference in the W-L record of this team. I don't know if anyone could have helped Tuel in Cleveland but the Patriot and Jets games were very winnable and Colin Brown just killed them in both games. Wait until this team gets out on the road for a stretch.

 

I'm not saying that Brown has played well, as anyone can tell that he hasn't.

 

Pinning the losses to the Pats and Jets on Brown is going way too far IMO. Unless he was going to cover Danny Amendola on that last drive, or replace Justin Rodgers in the defensive backfield, you're singling out the wrong guy.

 

Brown's played poorly; he hasn't been the cause of a single loss this year. And for whatever it's worth, the team's success running left (to Brown's side) is among the best in the NFL in several measurable statistics:

 

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=RUSHING_LEFT_POWER&tabSeq=2&season=2013&role=TM&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&qualified=false

Edited October 11, 2013 by thebandit27

[atlbillsfan1975]

I think that's called price fixing. Last I checked, it was a no-no.

It is a no-no to collude with other teams or owners. You are correct. But i think we started to witness it this past offseason to a degree. i have a feeling it will happen more and more. And it not really collusion but more the fact that teams are sick of getting burnt by giving big contracts to one hit wonders.

[Orton's Arm]

 

 

Not only has it taken a step back in per snap productivity......who wouldn't have wanted to see if the line would actually IMPROVE with another year together. Detractors want to isolate Levitre and his contract.....but it was his turn to get paid. The bulk of the upcoming big contracts on this roster are years down the road. Paying Levitre now made sense, but if not, don't leave yourself in such a bind at the position that you are thinking about drafting another guard early to repair the gaping hole in your line. I mean is Mario Williams worth his money? Not stand alone.........but without him this team is probably 0-5. This season has gone the way of the pass rush.....and he has been most of it. For that matter, the Bills lost to the Jets because they couldn't contain the Jets pass rush. And Brown was most of the problem. So yeah, I think having Levitre here would have made a difference in the W-L record of this team. I don't know if anyone could have helped Tuel in Cleveland but the Patriot and Jets games were very winnable and Colin Brown just killed them in both games. Wait until this team gets out on the road for a stretch.

 

The Bills had at least three options at LG:

1) Re-sign Levitre

2) Re-sign Reinhardt

3) Sign Colin Brown

 

The problem with option 1 is that the Titans greatly overpaid for what Levitre is actually producing. Had the Bills overpaid Levitre by an even greater margin, that would have driven up the cost of extending Wood and Glenn. Bumping up near the salary cap isn't a great idea for a team with below-average overall talent. Especially not for a team whose starting QB is on his rookie contract.

 

The problems with option 3) are obvious; and you touched on some of them in your post. As for the Cleveland game: had Tuel been given any pass protection at all, he might have produced something.

 

Reinhardt would have given the Bills a credible starter at LG at a very fair price. Not as good as Levitre, perhaps, but good enough to get us by for now. Instead of being forced to draft a LG in 2014, the Bills could have chosen to wait until 2015 or 2016; if they liked the 2015 or 2016 LG prospects better.

[John from Riverside]

you cannot watch these games and tell me the running game hasn't taken a step backward. i know, it's the OCs fault

 

Jester I really dont think its that simple......

 

- Yes....the bills should have had a backup plan if they lost Levitre if Brown was this bad (by the way...I think that backup plan was Legursky and then he got hurt.....well see now that he is back)

 

- Hackett gets so stubburn with his lack of creativity on runs.....its frustrating

 

- We are covering up a rookie QB (and now a practice squad vet) with our running game....teams know were gonna run it.......its up to the QB to hit the intermediate pass to back them off

 

- EVERY screen (all 2 of them) that we have ran this year has went for positive yardage

 

I am willing to wait and see if Legursky is the player Marrone thought he was going to be.....but I do miss Levitre...but not at 8 million dollars

 

The Bills had at least three options at LG:

1) Re-sign Levitre

2) Re-sign Reinhardt

3) Sign Colin Brown

 

The problem with option 1 is that the Titans greatly overpaid for what Levitre is actually producing. Had the Bills overpaid Levitre by an even greater margin, that would have driven up the cost of extending Wood and Glenn. Bumping up near the salary cap isn't a great idea for a team with below-average overall talent. Especially not for a team whose starting QB is on his rookie contract.

 

The problems with option 3) are obvious; and you touched on some of them in your post. As for the Cleveland game: had Tuel been given any pass protection at all, he might have produced something.

 

Reinhardt would have given the Bills a credible starter at LG at a very fair price. Not as good as Levitre, perhaps, but good enough to get us by for now. Instead of being forced to draft a LG in 2014, the Bills could have chosen to wait until 2015 or 2016; if they liked the 2015 or 2016 LG prospects better.

 

I thought I had heard a lot of reports that Reinhardt was struggling this year

[chris heff]

 

 

The Bills had at least three options at LG:

1) Re-sign Levitre

2) Re-sign Reinhardt

3) Sign Colin Brown

 

The problem with option 1 is that the Titans greatly overpaid for what Levitre is actually producing. Had the Bills overpaid Levitre by an even greater margin, that would have driven up the cost of extending Wood and Glenn. Bumping up near the salary cap isn't a great idea for a team with below-average overall talent. Especially not for a team whose starting QB is on his rookie contract.

 

The problems with option 3) are obvious; and you touched on some of them in your post. As for the Cleveland game: had Tuel been given any pass protection at all, he might have produced something.

 

Reinhardt would have given the Bills a credible starter at LG at a very fair price. Not as good as Levitre, perhaps, but good enough to get us by for now. Instead of being forced to draft a LG in 2014, the Bills could have chosen to wait until 2015 or 2016; if they liked the 2015 or 2016 LG prospects better.

Agree, it appears that they really did not have a plan. Colin Brown could not have been the plan.

[BADOLBILZ]

The Bills had at least three options at LG:

1) Re-sign Levitre

2) Re-sign Reinhardt

3) Sign Colin Brown

 

The problem with option 1 is that the Titans greatly overpaid for what Levitre is actually producing. Had the Bills overpaid Levitre by an even greater margin, that would have driven up the cost of extending Wood and Glenn. Bumping up near the salary cap isn't a great idea for a team with below-average overall talent. Especially not for a team whose starting QB is on his rookie contract.

 

The problems with option 3) are obvious; and you touched on some of them in your post. As for the Cleveland game: had Tuel been given any pass protection at all, he might have produced something.

 

Reinhardt would have given the Bills a credible starter at LG at a very fair price. Not as good as Levitre, perhaps, but good enough to get us by for now. Instead of being forced to draft a LG in 2014, the Bills could have chosen to wait until 2015 or 2016; if they liked the 2015 or 2016 LG prospects better.

 

For a lot of reasons, keeping Levitre was still the best option of the 3. They could have structured his contract and worst case he could be cut in a couple years and they would just have to eat $5M in cap room or the equivalent. I mean, Levitre's salary for this year is $2.5M and he got a $10.5M bonus. They had plenty of cap space to give him a higher first year salary and a lower bonus number. This is not cap breaking money by any means. As concerned as people are with overpaying Levitre I am surprised these same people didn't burn the Ralph to the ground when they cut Mark Anderson this summer and ate his unamortized bonus $.

 

I get that people think......"hey, the Steelers or Patriots wouldn't have 3 OL on their team making $4M or more"........but the Bills aren't those teams. I don't get that in the same thread a numbskull can say signing Levitre would have been a bad thing but now the team should use a first round pick on a guard next year. That's idiotic. The distinction between the Bills and good organizations with regard to decisions like this is that the Bills have a culture of losing to break and those teams have long ridden the momentum of winning.....a force that allows you a much larger margin for error with regard to personnel.

 

The best way to break a culture of losing is to make the best of the assets you have at your disposal and do it quickly before the new coach and his staff get the stink of losing on them. This team is not in a re-build. They have a veteran defense with a lot of former 1st and 2nd round picks in the lineup......a veteran OL.......a veteran #1 WR and veteran starting TE and 26 and 32 year old running backs. Yeah, they SHOULD be better courtesy of all the benefits parity provides losing teams in terms of draft pick positioning etc. and yes they have a young QB......but that hasn't stopped them from being competitive and even just a little more help in free agency could have this team at 4-1 or 5-0. Example: this is a team that has pounded now 5-0 teams like Denver and KC teams in recent years that have mostly the same rosters now that they had when the Bills were beating them. This has been going on with regularity since the year Jauron beat GB and Jacksonville at home and then those two teams made their conference championships the following season while the Bills were repeating their 7-9 record. If there is no urgency in this league "re-builds" never get off the ground. The Bills are terrible about this. Alright......so you pass on Levitre......then sign another starting quality OG and a couple other of the vast amount of bargain free agents that were on the market and your new head coach isn't looking like another guy who just can't seem to turn the Bills fortunes around.

Edited October 12, 2013 by BADOLBEELZ

[ALF]

I would have extended Levitre and Rhinehart before there contracts ended. Kept OL coach Joe D' . If we find a cheaper player as good as Levitre thats when to trade him. EJ and CJ are in trouble without a good LG. Hairston out is also a negative.

[Orton's Arm]

 

 

For a lot of reasons, keeping Levitre was still the best option of the 3. They could have structured his contract and worst case he could be cut in a couple years and they would just have to eat $5M in cap room or the equivalent. I mean, Levitre's salary for this year is $2.5M and he got a $10.5M bonus. They had plenty of cap space to give him a higher first year salary and a lower bonus number. This is not cap breaking money by any means. As concerned as people are with overpaying Levitre I am surprised these same people didn't burn the Ralph to the ground when they cut Mark Anderson this summer and ate his unamortized bonus $.

 

I get that people think......"hey, the Steelers or Patriots wouldn't have 3 OL on their team making $4M or more"........but the Bills aren't those teams. I don't get that in the same thread a numbskull can say signing Levitre would have been a bad thing but now the team should use a first round pick on a guard next year. That's idiotic. The distinction between the Bills and good organizations with regard to decisions like this is that the Bills have a culture of losing to break and those teams have long ridden the momentum of winning.....a force that allows you a much larger margin for error with regard to personnel.

 

The best way to break a culture of losing is to make the best of the assets you have at your disposal and do it quickly before the new coach and his staff get the stink of losing on them. This team is not in a re-build. They have a veteran defense with a lot of former 1st and 2nd round picks in the lineup......a veteran OL.......a veteran #1 WR and veteran starting TE and 26 and 32 year old running backs. Yeah, they SHOULD be better courtesy of all the benefits parity provides losing teams in terms of draft pick positioning etc. and yes they have a young QB......but that hasn't stopped them from being competitive and even just a little more help in free agency could have this team at 4-1 or 5-0. Example: this is a team that has pounded now 5-0 teams like Denver and KC teams in recent years that have mostly the same rosters now that they had when the Bills were beating them. This has been going on with regularity since the year Jauron beat GB and Jacksonville at home and then those two teams made their conference championships the following season while the Bills were repeating their 7-9 record. If there is no urgency in this league "re-builds" never get off the ground. The Bills are terrible about this. Alright......so you pass on Levitre......then sign another starting quality OG and a couple other of the vast amount of bargain free agents that were on the market and your new head coach isn't looking like another guy who just can't seem to turn the Bills fortunes around.

 

> For a lot of reasons, keeping Levitre was still the best option of the 3.

 

I'll grant that the Bills had room under the salary cap to afford to greatly overpay for Levitre. Maybe even greatly overpay for Glenn and Wood as well. I'll also grant your point that Levitre's contract could have been structured in a way to get a lot of the cap hit out of the way now (when we have plenty of cap space that's being wasted) rather than later (when the cap might be more of an issue).

 

> If there is no urgency in this league "re-builds" never get off the ground.

 

Thus far, Manuel has played like a bottom-10 QB. I realize he's a rookie, and that rookie QBs often improve. But the single most important part of any rebuild effort is to obtain a top-10 QB. Without that, there is very little chance of winning a Super Bowl.

 

> Example: this is a team that has pounded now 5-0 teams like Denver and KC teams in recent years

 

| The hottest horse will oft be cool,

| The dullest will show fire;

| The friar will often play the fool,

| The fool will play the friar.

 

- (Old Song; quoted in Chapter XXVI of Ivanhoe)

 

> Alright......so you pass on Levitre......then sign another starting quality OG and a couple other

> of the vast amount of bargain free agents that were on the market and your new head coach isn't

> looking like another guy who just can't seem to turn the Bills fortunes around.

 

The Bills need to focus less on looking good or obtaining others' approval; and focus more on discipline. Overpaying three out of five OL--including absurdly overpaying for your LG--does not necessarily constitute a disciplined approach to the salary cap. On the other hand, letting your best draft picks go first-contract-and-out is not disciplined either. The correct solution to the Levitre problem would have been to extend him before his rookie contract ended. Once he hit free agency--and once the Titans offered to absurdly overpay him--the Bills were faced with a no-win situation.

 

A star player at LG doesn't benefit you the way you'd benefit from a star QB, LT, RDE, or WR. Not that Levitre is a star LG; even if he's being paid like one. You still need a solid player at LG; but you can get that in the third round. He probably wouldn't be much of a drop-off from Levitre.

 

I don't like blowing a third round pick any more than you do. On the other hand, if the Bills greatly overpay for their talent, then that sets up a situation where they'd bump their head on the salary cap long before reaching a Super Bowl level of talent.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Edwards' Arm

[ColdBlueNorth]

Levitre is a good serviceable guard who would be an upgrade over our current left guard prospects, but not at elite guard money.

 

C'mon folks, Marrone was a journeyman lineman in the NFL and you don't think he had a say in the matter? Levitre had a chance to cash in his chips for a desparate team willing to pay top dollar for reliable if unspectacular talent.

 

If Brown or the other scrub cannot elevate their play, they will find a serviceable guard next year - there is no way we were going all the way to the promised land in one year's worth of rebuilding and the tools they did put in the toolbox via the draft have looked pretty good so far - no matter what those expert draft pundits thought of the moves.

[NoName]

I don't know if this will change your opinion at all; I just like to point out that the team won't have all that cap space forever, and decisions need to be made. They are currently paying Urbik $4M/year, and just extended Eric Wood for $6.5M/year. In another year and a half, they'll need to re-sign Cordy Glenn to LT money ($9M/year minimum). You can't expect to keep every free agent, and if you intend to be a good all-around team, paying $28M/year to 4 players on the OL isn't practical. Good teams don't do that.

 

You won't find a great team paying top 10 money to more than 1 or 2 offensive linemen. According to Spotrac, here's a list of teams paying top dollar to more than 1 (with average annual salary in parenthesis):

 

Jets - Mangold (2) and Ferguson (7)

Broncos - Clady (1) and Vasquez (10)

Panthers - Gross (6) and Kalil (1)

Rams - Long (8) and Wells (4)

Seahawks - Okung (9) and Unger (6)

TB - Nicks (1), Joseph (5), and Zuttah (10)

NO - Evans (3) and Grubbs (7)

 

That's only 7 teams in the 32-team league that are paying more than 1 OL top 10 money. When Wood's contract kicks in next year, he'll be the 4th-highest paid C in the league in terms of average salary, so saving the big money for Glenn, instead of Levitre, was a wise move IMO.

Now that's an excellent post. I wish some the bills writers did this type of analysis.

[hondo in seattle]

and yet Andy proved so valuable in Buffalo, that the BIlls are still scrambling in their search to replace him.

 

jw

 

Levitre is good; certainly much better than his replacement. But, at the price, I don't mind the FO letting him. I just wish they found somebody better than Brown to replace him with.