Delete This Account Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 From what I understand in my conversations with my contacts around the league, it's pretty widely accepted that Wood is the better lineman than Levitre. Regarding Glenn, when a young LT is up for a new deal, he's going to look for top 10 money; he'd be crazy not to. As for the 49ers, both Iupati and Davis are still on their rookie deals, so it's not an apples-to-apples comparison. You can be sure that when both of them come up for free agency next year, they won't both be getting long-term contracts. It's not about top-10 money, that was merely a line in the sand drawn for comparison. It's about not investing 25% of your salary cap space in the offensive line. It's not a prudent approach, which is why no successful team does that. The only team that comes close is Tampa Bay, and they're horrible. I think the issue that's arisen here is that folks view Levitre as one of the team's top players. To me, that says more about the low overall talent level on the team than it does about Levitre. He's a good guard, maybe top 10 in the league. Worth $8M/year? Not even close. He's getting more than guys like Chris Snee, Ben Grubbs, Marshall Yanda, Justin Blalock, and Josh Sitton. These are all former pro bowlers and better players. Overpaying at low-impact positions is how a team sets itself up for disaster. Good player, yes. With regard to your statement about locking him up sooner, do you know--since you report on the team and may know something I don't--if Levitre or his agent showed any desire in signing a long-term deal sooner? From the comments I remember, he seemed pretty excited about the chance to test the market. Levitre was eager to bolt once a deal wasn't reached before the start of his final season. Most players fall into that category. jw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Levitre was eager to bolt once a deal wasn't reached before the start of his final season. Most players fall into that category. jw Are you at liberty to share any details about what was offered and subsequently turned down, if anything, before the 2012 season began? GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TC in St. Louis Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 I was sad when he signed, and unless I'm wrong, he signed the first day of free agency. The fact that they were able to slap together a deal within hours tells me they already had cut the deal. He was out the door. Legursky may be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 (edited) Yeah, well that PROVES it then. He's worth $20 million per year!!! This is a common thread across multiple personnel decisions by the front office. It's not the question of whether Levitre was worth $20 million, it's how the situation got to that point. It's the poor preparation for the impending free agency, and more importantly the failure to address the position after his departure. There's a reason this franchise is stuck in a tail spin. Edited October 9, 2013 by GG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transient Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 (edited) Nope. I used to spend lot's of time doing that sort of thing, but it's silly unless someone is paying one to do that. My point is that those who simply make that argument, that this year right now we are x dollars under the cap, and therefore we should sign every free agent to a huge crazy contract because the numbers work out THIS season are doing so out their butts. Whether a team commits that sort of money (including the guaranteed money) to any player has to be evaluated with a view down the road, probably 3-5 years out. Teams routinely got themselves in cap hell on a regular basis by writing contracts for the now, and only thinking about what can I fit under this year's cap, without consideration of what happens when the cap hits keep escalating down the road. Then you're stuck cutting guys you want to keep to get under the cap, and crippling yourself with dead cap money into the future by doing so. You have to have a working 3-5 year plan of what you think the overall allowable cap increase will be each year, what the escalators are for each guy as the years pass, which guys contracts are going to expire and do you want to extend them. What market contracts look like for those guys in the future. Then you have to also prioritize importance of the position because no matter what you do, you won't be able to keep everybody. The issue is just way more complex than, "Hey man, we're $20 million under the cap this year, so what's the problem? Well stated. The one thing I would add is it makes even less sense to blow that cap space in year one of a complete overhaul, when the new coaches aren't even sure what positions they'll need to shore up on the roster in order to make a legitimate post-season run. I'd rather see them break the bank when we're 1-2 players away then overpay for a replaceable part. Edited October 10, 2013 by transient Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillnutinHouston Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 You mean the one we already broke down? The one when we didn't have a lead until the closing seconds of the third quarter? Yup, and the ones Carey Bender mentioned. When evaluating arguments here, I favor smarts over snark any day of the week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 All I know is I wish he was still on the team.....Levitre and Cordy Glenn would look very good on that side.... but such is the life in the NFL....would not suprise me to see that position be our 1st section in next years draft.....after a trade down that netted us more picks like we did this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Someone on talk radio has an opinion about Levitre after 5 games? Well that settles it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Yes, our brilliant front office that went into the season with Brown as the replacement (not to mention an undrafted free agent as our backup QB). I'd take Levitre back in a heartbeat, contract and all. I have a feeling Brown wasn't the original idea at LG, something tells me Pugh was. But the giants ruined that idea and Woods fell to us. The Draft is a gamble, in some areas we made out, but we didn't get the replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSBill Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 The mistake was not getting a deal done with Rhienhart when they realized there was no hope with Levitre. He was not far behind Levitre or Urbik, and is much better then what we have now, and most importantly, could have been had at a far better price then Levitre--not a ceap price, but more realistic and affordable. And most important, he could play! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Vader Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Living here in Banjo land, I get to listen to sports talk every morning about teams I could care less about in all honesty, but it's better than nothing, so I tune in, really just to see what other sports radio shows sound like, compared to ours. So, short story long, the big topic as of late is how Chris Johnson has been struggling, and not able to break runs on the inside this year, and guess whose name came up in conversation? nope.... guess again... yes, they were talking about Andy Levitre, and they were not raving about the guy in any way. In fact, they feel like they may have overpaid for what is being perceived as middling talent. They were concerned about his run blocking mostly, and other names along the offensive line as well, it wasn't a Levitre bash fest, but I was surprised to hear that he wasn't the second coming of Jesus Christ in guard form. From all the comments around here, you's think we let the "all mighty" walk(on water to tennessee at that), and bashed the front office for doing so. Maybe.... Juuuuuust maybe.... our front office was very smart in not over paying for a guard, even if we didn't have a better alternative to replace him. sometimes you have to let a guy walk, especially one who isn't blowing it up on his new team. Take this for what it's worth, just thought it would be nice to show a different side to what was perceived as a mistake in not keeping a guy. The thing is, it's bigger than not keeping "a guy". It was not keeping a guy who was one of the better players on the O-Line. Not only did they lose Levitre, they also failed to re-sign Chad Reinhardt, the back-up LG. So the Bills ended up losing TWO players from one position. Making that position a gaping hole to fill. The front office was unable to find a viable replacement at LG in free agency and they did not draft an OG either. Instead the Bills chose to roll the dice with an open competition which ended up with Colin Brown as the starter. The result has been awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronc24 Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Final score of that game was 34-35. All 5 TD's given up by the defense. Still blaming that one on the quarterback? Loaded question, then. Of course Fitz didn't play defense. However it was his ill-timed and poorly thrown interception that put the defense on the field so yes, I blame that on the QB as well. They were in scoring position from their own 48? Wow. If you have to lie to make your point, it's probably not a point worth making. As opposed to Buffalo having the ball and killing the last 2 mins? Which would you prefer? Fitz sucks. Period. It was proven time and time again and now the Titans' fans get to feel our pain. Insisting on apologizing for him, still, makes you look rather comical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronc24 Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 (edited) You mean the one we already broke down? The one when we didn't have a lead until the closing seconds of the third quarter? Explain what you have "broken down"? You called Carey Bender a "liar" and stated that game was not Fitz's fault because he doesn't play defense. Awesome breakdown and scintillating analysis. Who cares when we took the lead? We had the lead with just over three minutes left when Fitz threw a horrible interception. That is fact. Our terrible defense would not have been on the field in that field position had that pick not been thrown. Also fact. Here is the official play call from nfl.com: 3-7-BUF 39 (3:03) (Shotgun) R.Fitzpatrick pass short right intended for D.Jones INTERCEPTED by J.McCourty (D.Morgan) at TEN 48. J.McCourty to TEN 48 for no gain (D.Jones). D.Jones underthrown along sideline. Underthrown. Shocking. Could Tennessee, with one timeout left (they surely would have taken a timeout if that pass was completed), have driven the length of the field after the punt? Conceivably. Perhaps if Fitz completes that pass, it's a first down and a moot point. However, he threw a pick, setting up Tennessee for the win. How can he not be blamed? I will leave you with an article about the game itself. Note that while you refuse to blame Fitz for the loss, he certainly blames himself. Who are we to listen to more in this situation? http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/10/21/buffalo-bills-squander-late-lead-in-35-34-loss-to-tennessee-titans/ Edited October 10, 2013 by Marauder24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 (edited) A lot of people talk about the "$20 million" in cap that we have as if it only applies to this season.....and that not spending it is somehow "cheap" behaviour on behalf of the FO. Paying Levitre 8M a year(for 6 years) would impact the following 5 caps......most importantly the 2014 cap. Due to the rollover rules, Levitre sucking up $8M/year would suck $16M out of next years cap(2014).....$8m in salary & the loss of $8M rollover money that would occur for not signing him. The cap space we have at the moment is $18.4M. The 2014 cap is slated to be around $125M. At the moment we are committed to $110M. Assuming no changes, we start the 2014 year with $15M in cap space plus rollover money. Byrd's money($8M) needs to be included in the plans leaving $7M of cap money in 2014. We will also have players hitting FA that we may well want to re-sign in Carrington, Moats, Chandler, Legursky, Branch, Leonhard.....and Punter, FB, backup QB & Kicker......plus monies for the 2014 rookie class. On top of that we have Dareus and A.Williams who hit FA in 2015 whom we might want to lock up mid 2014. We also have very few players who are in the position to renegotiate their contracts to create space. Mario being the only one that really would be viable. Going back to the 2014 numbers.... Had we signed Levitre for $8M/year, we would be $1M over the 2014 cap.....AND have to do all of those things listed above. There is still the rollover monies to factor in.... (As I still don't have definitive information about re-rollover I will cover both scenarios).... Assuming we can re-roll rollover money.....we can take that $18.4M into next season. Had we signed Levitre that would then be reduced to $10.4M.....effectively leaving us with $9.4M in cap space to achieve all of the above things listed. Assuming we can't re-roll rollover money(which I'm fairly sure is the case).....we can take $8.6M into next season. Had we signed Levitre that would then be reduced to $0.6M.....effectively leaving us being $0.4M over the cap & still having to achieve all of the above. There is bond to be some juggling etc of monies......but the end position really is that in the particular cap situation the Bills are in through 2013/2014, re-signing Levitre(particularly over-paying for him) was never going to be considered a wise decision unless he was a STAR player. Edited October 10, 2013 by Dibs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 A lot of people talk about the "$20 million" in cap that we have as if it only applies to this season.....and that not spending it is somehow "cheap" behaviour on behalf of the FO. Paying Levitre 8M a year(for 6 years) would impact the following 5 caps......most importantly the 2014 cap. Due to the rollover rules, Levitre sucking up $8M/year would suck $16M out of next years cap(2014).....$8m in salary & the loss of $8M rollover money that would occur for not signing him. The cap space we have at the moment is $18.4M. The 2014 cap is slated to be around $125M. At the moment we are committed to $110M. Assuming no changes, we start the 2014 year with $15M in cap space plus rollover money. Byrd's money($8M) needs to be included in the plans leaving $7M of cap money in 2014. We will also have players hitting FA that we may well want to re-sign in Carrington, Moats, Chandler, Legursky, Branch, Leonhard.....and Punter, FB, backup QB & Kicker......plus monies for the 2014 rookie class. On top of that we have Dareus and A.Williams who hit FA in 2015 whom we might want to lock up mid 2014. We also have very few players who are in the position to renegotiate their contracts to create space. Mario being the only one that really would be viable. Going back to the 2014 numbers.... Had we signed Levitre for $8M/year, we would be $1M over the 2014 cap.....AND have to do all of those things listed above. There is still the rollover monies to factor in.... (As I still don't have definitive information about re-rollover I will cover both scenarios).... Assuming we can re-roll rollover money.....we can take that $18.4M into next season. Had we signed Levitre that would then be reduced to $10.4M.....effectively leaving us with $9.4M in cap space to achieve all of the above things listed. Assuming we can't re-roll rollover money(which I'm fairly sure is the case).....we can take $8.6M into next season. Had we signed Levitre that would then be reduced to $0.6M.....effectively leaving us being $0.4M over the cap & still having to achieve all of the above. There is bond to be some juggling etc of monies......but the end position really is that in the particular cap situation the Bills are in through 2013/2014, re-signing Levitre(particularly over-paying for him) was never going to be considered a wise decision unless he was a STAR player. Thanks for the facts and figures...great post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tintonfallsbillsfan Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 It is not where the cap is today it is where it is going. Darius, glenn , spiller , a williams are all coming up . Mario is 18.5 against the cap next year, (they probably have to redo it somehow because the cap hit is equally large.). Next years second round pick will be the starting guard for the next 5 years. The other thing to remeber is hairston got hurt, he has guard ex from college , by now he surly would be in the mix if not startng Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike in Syracuse Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 (edited) Going into the Cleveland game the Bills owned the NUMBER TWO ranked rushing attack in the entire NFL. Someone please explain to me why we're so decimated by not grossly overpaying a mediocre guard? Levitre was not and is not worth $8M per year, not be any stretch of the imagination nor by any rational breakdown of his onfield performance. He was a good pass blocker but a barely average run blocker. He also happens be someone who got turned into a perennial all pro in the mind of some Bills fans. The Bills front office is absolutely responsible for not bringing in an adequate replacement for him. They should have been able to do that for half of what Levitre got paid. Edited October 10, 2013 by Mike in Syracuse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Levitre was eager to bolt once a deal wasn't reached before the start of his final season. Most players fall into that category. jw To me, it's really this simple. The average NFL player gets one big payday. That was Levitre's shot at getting his. He was pretty transparent with his intention to go to the highest bidder. I can't fault him for that. I won't say his name because it'll just make this thread take a turn ... but Levitre's situation last year is not unlike a current Bill's situation this year. Chasing the big pay day. Difference is, Levitre didn't !@#$ his teammates over in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabe Northern Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Maybe.... Juuuuuust maybe.... our front office was very smart in not over paying for a guard, even if we didn't have a better alternative to replace him. sometimes you have to let a guy walk, especially one who isn't blowing it up on his new team. This sentiment is totally idiotic. If you decide not to pay someone, you better sure as sh*t figure out a Plan B. They literally replaced Levitre with the worst player in the NFL (Profootballfocus). How could anyone describe this as a smart move? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 This sentiment is totally idiotic. If you decide not to pay someone, you better sure as sh*t figure out a Plan B. I agree that their backup plan was poor They literally replaced Levitre with the worst player in the NFL (Profootballfocus). How could anyone describe this as a smart move? Citing PFF doesn't help your case here...do you know where they have Levitre ranked as a guard? Brown hasn't been good, no question. He's not the worst player in the NFL, no matter what the "advanced stats" say. I mean come on, have you seen any Jaguars' games? Brown could be one of their best offensive players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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