For those of you missing Levitre

[BADOLBILZ]

Following up a big mistake by duplicating it isn't using good judgment. Throwing a long term contract like TN did at Levitre would not have been a wise move. I fully agree that the team should have and could have found a better replacement for LG, and I understand the continuity on the Oline argument, but If you're going to drop that kind of coin on a player you should get a lot more return on your investment than Andy Levitre.

 

 

THE BUFFALO BILLS AREN"T EVERY OTHER ORGANIZATION

 

Whenever you are attempting to draw a parallel between the Bills and good organizations keep this in mind.

 

When you fail to make the playoffs for 13-14-15 years you don't have the luxury that an organization like the Pittsburgh Steelers do.

 

The easiest example of turning around a bad situation is what the Chiefs just did. The Chiefs are nowhere near as futile as the Bills, they made the playoffs 3 seasons ago. But they were awful for two years. What did they do last offseason versus what the Bills did?

 

They hired one of the most successful coaches in the NFL. They went out and acquired a competent QB in his prime who had taken his team to the brink of the SB two years earlier. But just as importantly.......they kept both Dwayne Bowe and Brandon Albert.

 

Both Bowe and Albert have had serious detractors.......but the strength of the Chiefs is their accumulated talent.......and simply put, fortune favors the bold.

 

If those players had been Bills they probably both are allowed to walk.......but DEFINITELY one of them would have. The Bills don't have an sense of urgency. The Chiefs do. Plain and simple. And if you don't think one of them would have made much of a difference in the Chiefs record then you didn't see exactly how the Chiefs jumped out to 9-0.

 

The Bills lost a lot of close games early. They played 7 of their first 12 at home and caught each of their early home opponents at a vulnerable time during their seasons. They played woeful opponents on the road early. They had a chance to get off to a good start and help Marrone's program get a foothold. But they did not. Play at the LG positon was a difference maker. I am not saying Levitre is worth $8M for every team, but that really isn't the point. His most value was to the Bills right here and right now. The Bills have been paying about $20M per victory in payroll over the last decade so an argument certainly could be made that just one more win would have justified Levitre's contract. In a couple years, if his skills eroded it releasing him wouldn't be a hindrance. The salary cap will jump significantly in a couple years when the new TV money kicks in.

 

Lastly, for all the apologists.........I gotta say if the replacements for Levitre have been so bad is it fair to assume is that those defending the Levitre decision think that the "braintrust" of Nix/Whaley/Marrone are just complete idiots who accidentally got it right by not signing Levitre.

[littlelouie]

Levitre on his worst day is better than any guard on the Bills roster. The Bills O line last year was ranked near the upper third in the NFL. This year they have the Bills O line ranked 26th out of 32 teams. You can't get much worse than that.

Now the Bills have to use a HIGH draft pick, maybe even their first to replace Levitre They have so many holes now the will never be able to fill them all. You only get 7 draft picks and 4 of the seven are not worth a darn. 4 though 7 rarely become starters.

Add to that they will lose Byrd now that's another good player that needs to be replaced. Bills take one step forward and two steps back.

Edited December 17, 2013 by littlelouie

[BADOLBILZ]

Levitre on his worst day is better than any guard on the Bills roster. The Bills O line last year was ranked near the upper third in the NFL. This year they have the Bills O line ranked 26th out of 32 teams. You can't get much worse than that.

Now the Bills have to use a HIGH draft pick, maybe even their first to replace Levitre They have so many holes now the will never be able to fill them all. You only get 7 draft picks and 4 of the seven are not worth a darn. 4 though 7 rarely become starters.

Add to that they will lose Byrd now that's another good player that needs to be replaced. Bills take one step forward and two steps back.

 

This is how it is when Bills fans are spurned in free agency.

 

The year the Bills lost Nate Clements they dropped from 7th in pass defense to 27th.

 

It goes for trades too, when the Bills dealt Peerless Price the following year the Bills passing game went from dynamic to disastrous.

 

But since those guys didn't go on to greatness elsewhere their departures were lauded as smart moves by the Bills by their apologists.

 

When you get a player that yields great results in your system.....their value exceeds what it might be elsewhere. And there is value in continuity when it comes to good players. It absolutely ADDS value to those players.

 

The contracts themselves are a product of the system. They don't really reflect actual value so drawing an imaginary line in the sand usually doesn't make sense. This wasn't a QB contract.

 

Is Mario Williams worth $1.4M per sack or whatever he earns? No, but now that he is entrenched he not only brings his big plays but he creates opportunity for others. It's no mistake that as Mario's sack production has decreased as the season goes on that new opportunities are springing up elsewhere. It's fundamental NFL football........do not let the best player beat you. At one point it looked like this was going to be a 20 sack year for Mario and nobody else would have more than 5 or 6.......but now it looks like they may have 4 players reach double digit sacks. Mario has a lot to do with that. The synergy created by his presence has it's own value.

 

Levitre made Wood and Glenn better players. He obviously was someone the RB's could rely on to execute his block. He would have supplied an increased level of safety and confidence for a young QB. Knowing the market was fruitless and that other positions were needed to be addressed on draft day it was a big mistake to let him walk. This year the Bills should have had one of the better left sides in football. Instead, teams ATTACKED the Bills left side with a focus on isolating their sickly LG position.

Edited December 17, 2013 by BADOLBEELZ

[Delete This Account]

 

Hold on. Which FO are we talking about?

 

Presumably, you're saying that before last year we should have signed Levitre, right? Or, earlier, if we are to fulfill the condition of "signing him before his contract was up". I don't recall it being anybody's FO...other than Buddy Nix's.

 

This coach, this GM, and this Pro Personnel guy(especially) weren't in place 2 year ago. I mean if the perscribed solution had to have been "extend him way before this even comes up".

 

Sure Whaley was in the office, but, do you know for a fact that this was Whaley's call? That would be a first, since according to Brandon they make "consensus" decisions. So, if that's true, then Whaley wasn't the only voice in this.

 

If it isn't true, and this is Buddy Nix's call, which via your assertion, it would have had to be....

 

....then what's with this "the Bills" crap? It isn't the same "the Bills". If you want to say that "Brandon was there", ok, but, was it Brandon's call to let Levitre walk? Most of the people who made the decision, that are still around, at best served as support for, or were on the periphery of, this decision.

 

Why do I, a humble purveyor of truth, logic, and wiseassery, have to explain this to someone of John Wawrow's exalted status?

 

 

I believe each GM should be given a clean slate, and be judged only on what happens on their watch. Otherwise, he's not really a GM, he's just somebody else's maintenance crew. Alternative example: Does Butler or Polian...as reason Bills made playoffs after 1994? Just like you can't credit Butler for Polian's choices, you can't fault Whaley for Nix's.

 

EDIT: This is like a new, competent manager taking over a failed manager's project: nobody would even entertain the idea that "the Project" is the same old "the Project". It remains to be seen whether Whaley is different, but, his first draft, trade and UFA period went..um just a little bit better than "well". So far we have evidence of good off-season moves translating to good play on the field. No wins yet, but, demonstrably good moves.

 

I'm faulting The Bills. Nix, Brandon, Overdorf and Gailey. The people who were in power to set forth the direction of this franchise at the time a decision needed to be made.

Whaley was essentially a scout at this point.

Not sure how you interpret my post as questioning Whaley.

 

jw

[Rob's House]

My take is that was all Buddy Nix, and his half-assed philosophy of "guards are a dime a dozen" that allowed Levitre & Rinehart to walk, while then employing the very worst replacements in the league.

 

 

This from Nix a week before the draft,

 

"Our roster in house is better than I think we get credit for especially offensive line. We’re pretty deep there. We’ve got six guards and we think a couple of them can play.”

 

Apparently, they couldn't!

 

http://espn.go.com/b...uard-not-a-need

 

Buddy Nix and his moronic moves are still stinging this team IMO. I'll breath a sigh of relief when Nix is finally history from this org, as I think Whaley will do alright without Nix. Whaley stated after the draft that it was "his'' draft and his job will depend on the players "he" drafted to preform well. Judging by this last draft, and If he learns from the mistake at guard this year. Then builds the line properly with the draft / free agency instead of the waiver wire, then he will be far superior to Nix.

 

 

 

 

BTW there are 3 OT's graded in the top 10 this year, and 4 in the top 15.

 

No argument here. I'm not satisfied with how they managed that aspect of the off-season at all. My complaint is that they didn't put the money they saved by not signing Levitre toward advancing the team.

[Delete This Account]

I'll give the Levitre Fan Club this - what they lack in football acumen they make up for in stubbornness. In about 2-3 years this will be regarded as one of the worst contracts drawn-up in the past decade, and there will still be posters here adamant that we should have given him that money. And no, this is not "how the league works these days." (I have to admit, I love reading the posts defending AL's contract and the accompanying mental gymnastics required - did someone just drop John McCargo's name!?? )

 

 

 

100% spot-on.

/thread

 

miss the point much. not sure if anyone's arguing Levitre being overpaid by Titans.

Fact is, the Bills had an opportunity to get him for less a year earlier.

They lacked foresight in failing to lock him up earlier. but please, keep not getting it .

 

jw

[Rob's House]

THE BUFFALO BILLS AREN"T EVERY OTHER ORGANIZATION

 

The Bills lost a lot of close games early. They played 7 of their first 12 at home and caught each of their early home opponents at a vulnerable time during their seasons. They played woeful opponents on the road early. They had a chance to get off to a good start and help Marrone's program get a foothold. But they did not. Play at the LG positon was a difference maker. I am not saying Levitre is worth $8M for every team, but that really isn't the point. His most value was to the Bills right here and right now. The Bills have been paying about $20M per victory in payroll over the last decade so an argument certainly could be made that just one more win would have justified Levitre's contract. In a couple years, if his skills eroded it releasing him wouldn't be a hindrance. The salary cap will jump significantly in a couple years when the new TV money kicks in.

My point was that they could have gotten a better player for $8m/yr. The fact that they didn't bothers me, but it is the fact they didn't use the money on any player, rather than the fact that they didn't use it on Levitre, that bothers me.

 

miss the point much. not sure if anyone's arguing Levitre being overpaid by Titans.

Fact is, the Bills had an opportunity to get him for less a year earlier.

They lacked foresight in failing to lock him up earlier. but please, keep not getting it .

 

jw

 

I heard Levitre was house shopping in the suburbs and they didn't want that element in the locker room.

[Delete This Account]

 

My point was that they could have gotten a better player for $8m/yr. The fact that they didn't bothers me, but it is the fact they didn't use the money on any player, rather than the fact that they didn't use it on Levitre, that bothers me.

 

 

 

I heard Levitre was house shopping in the suburbs and they didn't want that element in the locker room.

 

really, we're spilling PPP on to this board. I guess decorum is out the window. good for you for not getting any point at all. silly.

 

jw

 

done with this thread. see ya.

Edited December 17, 2013 by john wawrow

[papazoid]

miss the point much. not sure if anyone's arguing Levitre being overpaid by Titans.

Fact is, the Bills had an opportunity to get him for less a year earlier.

They lacked foresight in failing to lock him up earlier. but please, keep not getting it .

 

jw

 

i would also argue that i'd rather pay Levitre $7.8 mil/year than pay Byrd $8-9 mil/yr.

 

besides Levitre only had $13 mil guaranteed, which makes it a defacto 2 or 3 yr deal.

[Rob's House]

really, we're spilling PPP on to this board. I guess decorum is out the window. good for you for not getting any point at all. silly.

 

jw

 

done with this thread. see ya.

It was a joke, Francis. Why don't you take a deep breath and blow it out your ass.

[Dibs]

......

Fact is, the Bills had an opportunity to get him for less a year earlier.

They lacked foresight in failing to lock him up earlier. but please, keep not getting it .

 

jw

 

I thought that the Bills did make motions to re-sign him earlier, but AL made it clear that he wanted to see what he was worth on the open market.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Dibs

[BADOLBILZ]

My point was that they could have gotten a better player for $8m/yr. The fact that they didn't bothers me, but it is the fact they didn't use the money on any player, rather than the fact that they didn't use it on Levitre, that bothers me.

 

My response wasn't about whether Levitre is worth 10-15% of the teams salary cap. But those numbers are just the product of the system. He was a bargain player for several year and his year came up. Lot's of money was there. They lost more than his individual talent when they lost him.

 

What I didn't mention in my response was that when they let Clements and Price go.......they ended up drafting their replacements in with their very high first round pick a year later. Leodis and Lee Evans. Would have been nice to be able to use those picks elsewhere.

 

If the Bills end up having to draft an OG in the first two rounds this year when they could have just paid Levitre then Bills fans should be furious with Whaley/Marrone. If an OG isn't worth $8M when he pans out and is critically needed then the team should be scheming to cover up their weakness at guard.....not using premium draft picks on the position. Makes no sense and is a trademark of the personnel struggles of this organization.

[OCinBuffalo]

You do know that Buddy Nix was STILL the GM thru the draft, and STILL is employed by the Buffalo Bills in a consultant capacity as a "special assistant!

Yes.

[OCinBuffalo]

I'm faulting The Bills. Nix, Brandon, Overdorf and Gailey. The people who were in power to set forth the direction of this franchise at the time a decision needed to be made.

Whaley was essentially a scout at this point.

Not sure how you interpret my post as questioning Whaley.

 

jw

So, in essence, the people who made it, have already been fired.

 

What's left to B word about? You think Brandon had a real say? How about CFO Overdorf? He's just a contract/deal with the agent guy, I don't think he makes "hire/fire" decisions.

 

I dunno. Seems like you are retroactively complaining about a problem that has already been solved.

 

I mean, would firing Buddy Nix from his consulting role do it for you?

 

Seems like we should be yelling and Brandon a lot more about Toronto et al, rather than Levitre.

[thewildrabbit]

Levitre on his worst day is better than any guard on the Bills roster. The Bills O line last year was ranked near the upper third in the NFL. This year they have the Bills O line ranked 26th out of 32 teams. You can't get much worse than that.

Now the Bills have to use a HIGH draft pick, maybe even their first to replace Levitre They have so many holes now the will never be able to fill them all. You only get 7 draft picks and 4 of the seven are not worth a darn. 4 though 7 rarely become starters.

Add to that they will lose Byrd now that's another good player that needs to be replaced. Bills take one step forward and two steps back.

I don't blame either Levitre or Rinehart for wanting out of Buffalo given the situation of the last 14 years, and that they just didn't seem to be valued that highly in Buffalo.

 

I just don't get why this team puts such a low value on the guard position. The fastest way to the QB is right up the middle, if the guards and center are bad it won't matter how good the tackles are. If the guards are bad you won't be able to run the ball effectively. I do think that this year the Bills actually proved that guards are definitely not a dime a dozen.

 

Hopefully now the Bills will move to upgrade that line early in the draft. It stinks that they now need to address the LG position again so soon.

 

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl-mock-draft/2013/10/3/4797418/2014-nfl-draft-guard-rankings

[Wayne Cubed]

 

 

I thought that the Bills did make motions to re-sign him earlier, but AL made it clear that he wanted to see what he was worth on the open market.

 

This is what I thought as well.

 

I'm pretty sure he repeatedly stated he couldn't wait for this "once in a lifetime" opportunity to basically cash in. There is no way the Bills would have been able to lock him up early without overpaying.

 

So the question comes back to, do you think the Bills should have overpaid AL? For me, the simple answer is no.

 

Should the Bills have had a better back up plan? Yes.

[machine gun kelly]

 

 

If he would have restructured, he would be our backup. If he was our backup, he would have led us to a win over Cleveland. I have no doubts about this.

 

Fitz never gave up games. Plenty of times he failed to bring the team back, but lest we forget he had plenty of games where he did lead them from behind, they fell short in a bunch of those, but that's not the point.

 

Can anyone here recall a game in which Fitz relinquished a lead late in the game?

 

Good comment. I would have loved to have Fitz as the back up which is his role. We could have paid him 3-4 mil. And had a reliable 2nd string who probably could have won us the Chiefs, Browns, and Bengals games. EJ would have learned from him, and his quick decision making. I just never wanted him as the starter. Too bad as several of those losses the last three years was due to a putrid defense. Our defense if could stay off the field is much better than years past. I know we are still not good against the run, but our pass defense has improved significantly.

[K-9]

60 percent of the Bills plays last year were passing plays.

 

Well in that case, you only need a good run blocking guard 40% of the time.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[C.Biscuit97]

I don't blame either Levitre or Rinehart for wanting out of Buffalo given the situation of the last 14 years, and that they just didn't seem to be valued that highly in Buffalo.

 

I just don't get why this team puts such a low value on the guard position. The fastest way to the QB is right up the middle, if the guards and center are bad it won't matter how good the tackles are. If the guards are bad you won't be able to run the ball effectively. I do think that this year the Bills actually proved that guards are definitely not a dime a dozen.

 

Hopefully now the Bills will move to upgrade that line early in the draft. It stinks that they now need to address the LG position again so soon.

 

http://www.sbnation....-guard-rankings

 

The entire NFL puts a long premium on guards. IT is a position that is surrounded by other players. If there is one spot on the oline you can get by with, it's guard. The Bills chose to replace LEvitre badly. But some act like he was some world beater at guard. He was athletic for a guard but was hardly a dominant blocker. Guys like Wood and Glenn are way more important to the oline than a LG.

[mjt328]

 

 

This is how it is when Bills fans are spurned in free agency.

 

The year the Bills lost Nate Clements they dropped from 7th in pass defense to 27th.

 

It goes for trades too, when the Bills dealt Peerless Price the following year the Bills passing game went from dynamic to disastrous.

 

But since those guys didn't go on to greatness elsewhere their departures were lauded as smart moves by the Bills by their apologists.

 

When you get a player that yields great results in your system.....their value exceeds what it might be elsewhere. And there is value in continuity when it comes to good players. It absolutely ADDS value to those players.

 

The contracts themselves are a product of the system. They don't really reflect actual value so drawing an imaginary line in the sand usually doesn't make sense. This wasn't a QB contract.

 

Is Mario Williams worth $1.4M per sack or whatever he earns? No, but now that he is entrenched he not only brings his big plays but he creates opportunity for others. It's no mistake that as Mario's sack production has decreased as the season goes on that new opportunities are springing up elsewhere. It's fundamental NFL football........do not let the best player beat you. At one point it looked like this was going to be a 20 sack year for Mario and nobody else would have more than 5 or 6.......but now it looks like they may have 4 players reach double digit sacks. Mario has a lot to do with that. The synergy created by his presence has it's own value.

 

Levitre made Wood and Glenn better players. He obviously was someone the RB's could rely on to execute his block. He would have supplied an increased level of safety and confidence for a young QB. Knowing the market was fruitless and that other positions were needed to be addressed on draft day it was a big mistake to let him walk. This year the Bills should have had one of the better left sides in football. Instead, teams ATTACKED the Bills left side with a focus on isolating their sickly LG position.

 

This is an excellent post, and one of the best I've seen regarding free agency.

 

The Bills biggest problem over the last 15 years is bad drafting. However, letting veteran talent walk (through free agency or trade) instead of paying them, is a close second. Unless you have a legitimate backup plan, losing good players is going to hurt the team on the field. And it will eventually force you to use a high draft pick to replace the departed player.

 

We lost Pat Williams (and later Sam Adams), and our DT situation was awful for several years. It never really stabilized until we drafted Dareus.

We lost Antoine Winfield and Nate Clements, and we are still trying to get a solid tandem at cornerback. Despite using 2 top 15 picks on McKelvin and Gilmore.

We traded Jason Peters, and sucked at left tackle for years - until we finally drafted Cordy Glenn.

 

People tried to assign a monetary value to Andy Levitre, saying he wasn't worth it. Now they are seeing how a bad LG hurts the development of our rookie QB and pulls down our vaunted running game.