skibum Posted October 4, 2013 Posted October 4, 2013 (edited) I only saw the replay a couple of quick times, but it sure looked like Kiko's helmet smashed directly into Hoyer's. How can you watch that and say he didn't lead with his helmet? I was surprised to hear he wasn't even flagged. Edited October 4, 2013 by skibum
Not at the table Karlos Posted October 4, 2013 Posted October 4, 2013 (edited) I only saw the replay a couple of quick times, but it sure looked like Kiko's helmet smashed directly into Hoyer's. How can you watch that and say he didn't lead with his helmet? I was surprised to hear he wasn't even flagged. Because his shoulder came in first and was the first part of kikos body to hit hoyer. He wasn't flagged because it wasn't a penalty Edited October 4, 2013 by kr632
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 4, 2013 Posted October 4, 2013 (edited) I only saw the replay a couple of quick times, but it sure looked like Kiko's helmet smashed directly into Hoyer's. How can you watch that and say he didn't lead with his helmet? I was surprised to hear he wasn't even flagged. If you look carefully at the replay, Kiko launches himself horizontally at about waist level, just as Hoyer starts to slide, and makes first contact with his shoulder. There is helmet to helmet contact, but the helmet wasn't at that level when Kiko left his feet, and his trajectory doesn't rise. If Hoyer had done a real slide, his helmet would have been below Kiko. I think it was the fair call - the sensible call. You can't expect a player to violate the laws of physics. Edited October 4, 2013 by Hopeful
BarleyNY Posted October 5, 2013 Posted October 5, 2013 I thought once the QB runs there is no helmet to helmet. And kiko did let up on hoyer. The second he realized hoyer was going down he put his arms out and tried to reduce the hit. Kiko didn't in anyway lead with his helmet he lead with his shoulder and the impact from that hit brought hoyers head up into kikos. No way shape or form a helmet to helmet hit. Helmet to helmet hits are illegal and that's what I saw hit first. Kiko's helmet hit the side of Hoyer's. Intent has nothing to do with it. That is 15 yards. Maybe a fine But that was it. I don't think it impacted the knee injury at all. Even if Hoyer was briefly knocked out (and I don't know that he was) I don't think it would have made a difference with respect to the injury. Conscious or not, he wasn't in a position to react and change his body motion in any way. Honestly, all we're really arguing about is who gets the high ground. Reality is it would have been 15 yards in the game.
Not at the table Karlos Posted October 5, 2013 Posted October 5, 2013 Helmet to helmet hits are illegal and that's what I saw hit first. Kiko's helmet hit the side of Hoyer's. Intent has nothing to do with it. That is 15 yards. Maybe a fine But that was it. I don't think it impacted the knee injury at all. Even if Hoyer was briefly knocked out (and I don't know that he was) I don't think it would have made a difference with respect to the injury. Conscious or not, he wasn't in a position to react and change his body motion in any way. Honestly, all we're really arguing about is who gets the high ground. Reality is it would have been 15 yards in the game. Watch it again. Clearly Kiko's shoulder hit first
T master Posted October 5, 2013 Posted October 5, 2013 I saw them all tweeting about it last night.... now they are saying today on the radio he should have been tossed out of the game and fined for hit on Hoyer. No mention, however, of the hit on EJ or anything to do with the Bills. And they said "Kiko Alonso, or whatever the hell his name is." Ummm... better start learning his name. Or maybe just call him sir. And I know, "scoreboard." Just speaking about the hit and Kiko's performance overall. Not the score. We all know the factors that led to that, and it sure as hell had nothing to do with Kiko or our front 7. They were both running with the ball & legal targets so there shouldn't be any bitchin from either side about the hit unless it was a intentional helmet to helmet hit as they were launching into the player running the ball isn't that the rule ? I get them being pissed Hoyer was doing good for them & it really sucks when you lose a good player but rookies (EJ being one of them) take a while to learn how to slide if they don't believe it just look at RG3 tape !!
ExiledInIllinois Posted October 5, 2013 Posted October 5, 2013 Kiko is the scapegoat. It is Hoyer's RIGHT knee (the leg he led w/) that got injured. Hoyer injures that knee even if Kiko doesn't hit him @ all. The thing is... There were 5 other... Count them other Bills there standing upright ready to stop Hoyer... Kiko was the 6th and he was coming in high motor... Gotta love his work ethic! Back in the day, this would have been an example of how to play the game! Now it is a lazy touch league! Glad Kiko never got the memo! He will get fined for this because The League likes to take player's salaries away to recoup/make some lost money... They don't want a player working hard and hustling, that gets punished nowadays.
KGUNBILLS Posted October 5, 2013 Posted October 5, 2013 Maybe this is what Buffalo has been lacking for quite sometime. A good old fashion knock down drag out bitter cold ugly rivalry with someone. It isn't with New England, because they always come back and beat us in the fourth quarter. Same with the Jets. Miami isn't loud and boisterous any more because they go into games just hoping to win, not really commanding it. What I'm saying is what would Batman be without the Joker? Or Superman without Lexx Luther? Nothing, that's what! We need to find our own Lexx Luther. Until we become competitive in our own division, Cleveland would make an excellent adversary.
skibum Posted October 5, 2013 Posted October 5, 2013 Han Solo shot first! But seriously, if EJ got hit like that we would be calling for executions.
ExiledInIllinois Posted October 5, 2013 Posted October 5, 2013 (edited) Han Solo shot first! But seriously, if EJ got hit like that we would be calling for executions. But the hit had nothing to do with the injury... Now if Hoyer got a concussion, I can see your argument. His right knee is torn... What does Kiko Alonso have to w/that? Actually Kiko's hit may have lessoned the injury! Without the hit, his right leg sticks even more on the awkward slide! Hoya got destroya'd by an old-time clean hit! Kiko even showed compassion by easing up on him! #TheLegendOfKikoAlonso Edited October 5, 2013 by ExiledInIllinois
billsrcursed Posted October 5, 2013 Posted October 5, 2013 But the hit had nothing to do with the injury... Now if Hoyer got a concussion, I can see your argument. His right knee is torn... What does Kiko Alonso have to w/that? Actually Kiko's hit may have lessoned the injury! Without the hit, his right leg sticks even more on the awkward slide! Hoya got destroya'd by an old-time clean hit! Kiko even showed compassion by easing up on him! #TheLegendOfKikoAlonso yup.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 5, 2013 Posted October 5, 2013 Helmet to helmet hits are illegal and that's what I saw hit first. Kiko's helmet hit the side of Hoyer's. Intent has nothing to do with it. That is 15 yards. Maybe a fine *sigh* folks, the devil is always in the details. The actual rule prohibits helmet-to-helmet hits on a defenseless player. Defenseless players are defined as receivers in the act of catching, QB in the act of throwing, defensive players being crackback blocked by a WR, a kick or punt returner in the act of fielding a kick, a runner already "in the grasp" whose forward progress was stopped, and a player already on the ground. Which of those was Hoyer at the time of Kiko's hit? Answer: none of the above. He was starting to lower himself but was not yet on the ground. He was not in the grasp. He was not in the act of throwing a pass. Plus, Kiko led with his shoulder and Hoyer, starting to drop after Kiko launched, lowered his helmet into Kiko's path. The hit was legal, it was not and should not be fined, and the Ohio media who are calling for Kiko's ejection are just plain ignorant of football. Period. Wording: (1) A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass; (2) A receiver attempting to catch a pass; or who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a runner… (3) A runner already in the grasp of a tackler and whose forward progress has been stopped; (4) A kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air; (5) A player on the ground; (6) A kicker/punter during the kick or during the return… (7) A quarterback at any time after a change of possession… (8) A player who receives a “blindside” block when the blocker is moving toward or parallel to his own end line and approaches the opponent from behind or from the side, and (9) A player who is protected from an illegal crackback block.
The Poojer Posted October 5, 2013 Posted October 5, 2013 Great explanation! If you look carefully at the replay, Kiko launches himself horizontally at about waist level, just as Hoyer starts to slide, and makes first contact with his shoulder. There is helmet to helmet contact, but the helmet wasn't at that level when Kiko left his feet, and his trajectory doesn't rise. If Hoyer had done a real slide, his helmet would have been below Kiko. I think it was the fair call - the sensible call. You can't expect a player to violate the laws of physics.
xsoldier54 Posted October 5, 2013 Posted October 5, 2013 Kiko lowered his shoulder, he did not lead with the helmet. And if you look at the pictures, Hoyers legs twisted awkwardly during the slide, causing the injury. The hit had nothing to do with the injury.
3rdand12 Posted October 5, 2013 Posted October 5, 2013 (edited) If you look carefully at the replay, Kiko launches himself horizontally at about waist level, just as Hoyer starts to slide, and makes first contact with his shoulder. There is helmet to helmet contact, but the helmet wasn't at that level when Kiko left his feet, and his trajectory doesn't rise. If Hoyer had done a real slide, his helmet would have been below Kiko. I think it was the fair call - the sensible call. You can't expect a player to violate the laws of physics. close inspection showed me exactly this. I had to watch it more than once though.And obviously that was not the cause of injury. Tough call for the refs , because it was hard to see at game speed. Horton had mentioned before the game that once a QB runs they consider him a running back. He was describing Manuel! I feel the Browns were head (knee) hunting EJ after the Hoyer incident. guess thats football though Edited October 5, 2013 by 3rdand12
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 5, 2013 Posted October 5, 2013 (edited) close inspection showed me exactly this. I had to watch it more than once though. And obviously that was not the cause of injury. Tough call for the refs , because it was hard to see at game speed. Horton had mentioned before the game that once a QB runs they consider him a running back. He was describing Manuel! I feel the Browns were head (knee) hunting EJ after the Hoyer incident. guess thats football though Correct, once the QB runs he is considered a running back, not a "defenseless player", until he "gives himself up" by sliding. Yes, yes it is football. Plus, it doesn't take "headhunting" or any specific motivation to know that the QB is always key and if you can take him out, it's an advantage to your team. That's why a QB willing to slide and willing to toss OOB vice taking a sack and possible game-ending concussion, is important. I do feel the Browns should have gotten a personal foul taunting penalty though. Edited October 5, 2013 by Hopeful
CardinalScotts Posted October 5, 2013 Posted October 5, 2013 I listen to the 93.3 all sports morning show they all said it was a clean hit just unfortunate
3rdand12 Posted October 5, 2013 Posted October 5, 2013 I listen to the 93.3 all sports morning show they all said it was a clean hit just unfortunate Yes, to both of the decisive plays. I watched the kiko hit closely because coches were tryin g to rein him in at ota. He just wanted to hit things hard. Seems he is playing smart and aggressive. Thats a hell of a combination.
Bmwolf21 Posted October 5, 2013 Posted October 5, 2013 I listen to the 93.3 all sports morning show they all said it was a clean hit just unfortunate Same here. 92.3 The Fan was saying the same thing. The Ohio Media Twitter feeds I follow didn't really say anything negative about Kiko or the hit - the only ones I saw attacking Kiko were random fans, but to be fair I usually unfollow idiots pretty fast, so some obnoxious media types could have been venting at the Bills and I wouldn't have seen it.
YoloinOhio Posted October 5, 2013 Author Posted October 5, 2013 Same here. 92.3 The Fan was saying the same thing. The Ohio Media Twitter feeds I follow didn't really say anything negative about Kiko or the hit - the only ones I saw attacking Kiko were random fans, but to be fair I usually unfollow idiots pretty fast, so some obnoxious media types could have been venting at the Bills and I wouldn't have seen it. These guys are almost all in Columbus, some in Cleve. They are total homers and not at all objective.
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