Hackett not giving Manuel "easy throws" a little frustrating

[thewildrabbit]

What is people's fascination with Gailey. His offense was figured out about a third of the way through the season. Yeah he used screens well, so what. How does every forget how stagnant and terrible our offense was once teams started pressing our WR's and taking away the quick hitters, which were the only ones FItz could do consistently? The offense was absolutely stopped in its tracks once teams got physical with our WR's.

Although Gailey had some serious flaws in his thinking, like placing a broken backup QB into a high octane offense and expecting him to play like Tom Brady. The offense wasn't the real problem as it was the historically bad franchise / NFL wise defense that lost so many games last year. Gailey also had a RB that averaged 6.0 ypc with 1244 yards rushing. The problem was his offense couldn't control the clock passing or running, and as good as the run game was they couldn't get a 3rd and short by running it at all. If ya can't control the clock or LoS, ya won't win many games despite all the trickery in the world. Chan Gailey, and his choice for QB sucked!!

 

 

Bills fans are disgruntled by the lack of offense this year team is showing, and rightfully so. CJ Spiller was god awful bad last game with 10 rushes for 9 yards, one reception for one yard. Now, considering the lack of production by the starting RB is it any wonder as to why the passing game also went into the toilet? Regardless of the QB.

 

A common NFL defensive tactic is to stop the run and force the team into a one dimensional passing offense, so then the defense then pins their ears back and blitz every play. Which is exactly what the Jets were able to do. Thus sacking EJ 8 times, that's right EIGHT times.

 

 

As bad as EJ looked last game with his hurried, errant passes and inability to win the game. The bigger problem is fixing the running game, and defense. The Bills had a shot to win that game if CB Justin "toast" Rodgers doesn't allow 74% of the Jets passing, along with 2 TD's.

 

Right now two players are killing the Buffalo Bills, and one of them is not "Mr Composure" EJ Manuel. They are DB Justin Rodgers and LG Colin Brown

 

http://forums.twobil...o-line-defense/

 

 

EJ,

""As with any rookie quarterback, there will be growing pains and E.J. Manuel certainly had his first-year issues on Sunday. He seems extra cautious to take care of the ball, which is certainly not a bad thing, but it perhaps takes away from his ability to make plays down the field. The Jets routinely challenged Manuel to throw deep, but he was only able to connect on 1-of-8 passes beyond 20 yards and he often led his WRs too far out of bounds. Perhaps that was his carefulness taking over, but the Bills’ simplified offense will be opened up at some point, and those are the plays that eventually need to be made.""

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/09/23/refo-buf-nyj-week-3/

Edited September 28, 2013 by FeartheLosing

[ko12010]

Cherry pick? You put "EVERY TIME" in all caps. You left yourself open to that one bud.

I understand, but yeah, that's a couple games from 3 entire seasons. That's cherry picking. And we still lost both those games, so...yeah

[ALLEN1QB]

I wish we had Gailey as OC. How many times has this offense needed 1or 2 yds for a first and they have EJ throwing a difficult corner of the endzone pass. Very frustrating to say the least.

[ko12010]

But this is the crux of this team, they blow it up to start over every three years instead of trying to fix what was wrong. Sad that they fixed the defense, only to field a jv offense again. Welcome back AVP.

 

Ps - Gailey was a darn good o coordinator and it's ridiculous to think otherwise.

It absolutely is not. His 'genius' was crushed by good defenses. He did some good things. I'd say he was average to slightly above average as an OC. There were many games where people here complained mightily about the offensive's struggles, especially when the defense had a better week. "If the offense could've just done this, or that". Oh how quickly we forget

[Coach Tuesday]

Although Gailey had some serious flaws in his thinking, like placing a broken backup QB into a high octane offense and expecting him to play like Tom Brady. The offense wasn't the real problem as it was the historically bad franchise / NFL wise defense that lost so many games last year. Gailey also had a RB that averaged 6.0 ypc with 1244 yards rushing. The problem was his offense couldn't control the clock passing or running, and as good as the run game was they couldn't get a 3rd and short by running it at all. If ya can't control the clock or LoS, ya won't win many games despite all the trickery in the world. Chan Gailey, and his choice for QB sucked!!

 

 

Bills fans are disgruntled by the lack of offense this year team is showing, and rightfully so. CJ Spiller was god awful bad last game with 10 rushes for 9 yards, one reception for one yard. Now, considering the lack of production by the starting RB is it any wonder as to why the passing game also went into the toilet? Regardless of the QB.

 

A common NFL defensive tactic is to stop the run and force the team into a one dimensional passing offense, so then the defense then pins their ears back and blitz every play. Which is exactly what the Jets were able to do. Thus sacking EJ 8 times, that's right EIGHT times.

 

 

As bad as EJ looked last game with his hurried, errant passes and inability to win the game. The bigger problem is fixing the running game, and defense. The Bills had a shot to win that game if CB Justin "toast" Rodgers doesn't allow 74% of the Jets passing, along with 2 TD's.

 

Right now two players are killing the Buffalo Bills, and one of them is not "Mr Composure" EJ Manuel. They are DB Justin Rodgers and LG Colin Brown

 

http://forums.twobil...o-line-defense/

 

Respectfully disagree - I think it's the opposite. The Jets were stacking the box because they knew (or quickly figured out) that EJ and his WRs weren't going to make them pay for removing a safety. You need to prove you can pass if you want to be able to run it successfully.

[ko12010]

I wish we had Gailey as OC. How many times has this offense needed 1or 2 yds for a first and they have EJ throwing a difficult corner of the endzone pass. Very frustrating to say the least.

If we're making ridiculous wishes, why not wish for a better OC? Hey, let's play Madden but with coaches/personnel. Belichek as HC/OC and Rex Ryan as DC. The Rooney family as owners. Yeah, then we'd be good! Why not have Tom Brady as QB while we're at it.

[NoSaint]

Hackett's route combinations are also extremely unsophisticated (including as compared to Gailey's). There were many, many plays (not just against the blitz) where the outside WRs simply ran streaks, and others where all three or four WRs ran curls or squares from the same distance (about 8-10 yards downfield). Very few crosses and, as you said, almost no bunches or motions designed to disrupt the press.

 

Is part of that unsophisticated approach having a rookie at #2, graham, planned rookie #4, and hogan/Easley? It's like 50 career catches in the group and that might be including the first 3 games this year. Plus a rookie qb and a UDFA backup qb.

 

I spoke of it a little in the offseason and while I think talent is up I think someone beyond Stevie and chandler with experience in the nfl passing game might've been nice (even guys like kolb, Jackson and brad smith who were less than ideal but with known baselines and some experience to share)

 

With a young first time OC, it's got to be a little tough sorting out what you can and can't expect, sharing real game experiences, etc... when they all sit in a room together to discuss the passing game

Edited September 28, 2013 by NoSaint

[Coach Tuesday]

Is part of that unsophisticated approach having a rookie at #2, graham, planned rookie #4, and hogan/Easley? It's like 50 career catches in the group and that might be including the first 3 games this year. Plus a rookie qb and a UDFA backup qb.

 

I spoke of it a little in the offseason and while I think talent is up I think someone beyond Stevie and chandler with experience in the nfl passing game might've been nice (even guys like kolb, Jackson and brad smith who were less than ideal but with known baselines and some experience to share)

 

You might be right, but I am pretty sure they run WRs in motion in college. And Graham had a year under a more sophisticated offense (the aforementioned Gailey). And bunch formations aren't even all that sophisticated - you're usually running the same routes, just out of a different set, one that makes it harder for CBs to jam at the line.

[GG]

It absolutely is not. His 'genius' was crushed by good defenses. He did some good things. I'd say he was average to slightly above average as an OC. There were many games where people here complained mightily about the offensive's struggles, especially when the defense had a better week. "If the offense could've just done this, or that". Oh how quickly we forget

 

The guy had Ryan Fitzpatrick and Scott chandler put up respectable numbers. Even David Nelson got good game action. The owner functioned much better under his watch than it did with the prior oc. While good he's not a miracle worker and yes good defenses matched up against Bills inferior talent at the skill positions. Funny how Bills upgrade offensive talent yet are playing worse.

[thewildrabbit]

Respectfully disagree - I think it's the opposite. The Jets were stacking the box because they knew (or quickly figured out) that EJ and his WRs weren't going to make them pay for removing a safety. You need to prove you can pass if you want to be able to run it successfully.

The Patriots also stacked the box and shut down Spiller. But then only blitzed 6 out of 32 drop backs. Even giving EJ all day to throw isn't the answer, it's getting the run game / Spiller going early.

 

It sure will be a long season for Bills fans if Hackett can't figure out how to make Spiller the running threat he was last season. My take is to utilize Gailey's 4 wide, single back, shotgun spread offense that will give Hackett the chance to maker Spiller the dominate force he was last season. The Bills used that play a few times the last few games and Spiller had some decent success in them. The only reason they don't go with them full time is to keep a TE in to protect EJ. But clearly that isn't working.

 

 

That said, I also think Hackett is keeping it simple for EJ because he might be having difficulty making more then one or two reads.

Edited September 28, 2013 by FeartheLosing

[NoSaint]

 

 

You might be right, but I am pretty sure they run WRs in motion in college. And Graham had a year under a more sophisticated offense (the aforementioned Gailey). And bunch formations aren't even all that sophisticated - you're usually running the same routes, just out of a different set, one that makes it harder for CBs to jam at the line.

 

Haven't given it any thought and might be way off but reading your post.... It for some reason (despite it not being your point at all) made me think on hackets experience being college. While I'm sure marrone is helping a lot, is it possible they are treating these rooks and young guys more like freshman because that's how he has learned to bring guys along?

 

Additionally, I think I mentioned it in the hot read thread but if they connect on a deep route or two I don't think we hammer them near as much for being unsophisticated. So in that sense I think there's a tough balance in the discussion between sophistication and execution. Neither are quite where you hope they would be and it's hard to give more when you aren't getting basics right, but the basics get harder if you aren't evolving and growing.

 

Hopefully being a small sample helps account for some of the frustration and this week they execute well and the leash gets longer.

[Dan]

Again, WHY Gailey? There are hundreds of coaches Hackett could study to improve his own playcalling/philosophy who are/were much, much better than Gailey. Gailey was familiar with some of the personnel. Wow. Big deal. Why not study a true offensive genius instead of a mediocre head coach / average to slightly above average OC.

 

Gailey, because he was here just last year. His system, his offense was designed with many of these players in mind. Not to mention, because it was the Bills offense, the playbook stays with the Bills and the players here know the plays. So it should be a much easier and efficient way to incorporate these few plays.

 

Just because Gailey's tenure was overall a losing one, that doesn't mean everything he did was bad. Why not take the best of the stuff and add it to the best of the new stuff? No, lets be blinded by our dislikeof all things Gailey and dismiss the fact that he actually had a decent offense.

[NoSaint]

 

 

The guy had Ryan Fitzpatrick and Scott chandler put up respectable numbers. Even David Nelson got good game action. The owner functioned much better under his watch than it did with the prior oc. While good he's not a miracle worker and yes good defenses matched up against Bills inferior talent at the skill positions. Funny how Bills upgrade offensive talent yet are playing worse.

 

I wish we could've seen gailey with a DC he could leave on an island and trust to run things on that side from day 1. Restocking the D every year, coupled with their poor play really put an offense lacking talent in tough spots. He created some pretty nifty schemes but without talent to match your opponents you can only get by on play design for so long - at some point you need a guy that can make the explosive passing game work.

[Coach Tuesday]

Haven't given it any thought and might be way off but reading your post.... It for some reason (despite it not being your point at all) made me think on hackets experience being college. While I'm sure marrone is helping a lot, is it possible they are treating these rooks and young guys more like freshman because that's how he has learned to bring guys along?

 

Very interesting thought and one I haven't seen mentioned yet...

 

But there are other college-to-NFL coaches whose names we need not mention (rhyme with Carpaw and Smelly) who don't seem to have that approach. Then again, Carpaw's offensive coaching staff is full of NFL vets, unlike Marrone's.

[Keukasmallies]

As with all things Bills, the guy that was here yesterday is much better than the guy that's here today; and the guy that will come in tomorrow is better than either of them...for at least the off season.

[NoSaint]

 

 

Very interesting thought and one I haven't seen mentioned yet...

 

But there are other college-to-NFL coaches whose names we need not mention (rhyme with Carpaw and Smelly) who don't seem to have that approach. Then again, Carpaw's offensive coaching staff is full of NFL vets, unlike Marrone's.

 

He also was an nfl qb with more experience in an nfl locker room than all our offensive staff, qbs, and WRs combined. Also had luck in college which might've been more like coaching a pro qb.

 

I dunno, for some reason when you said even college players do more it sparked the thought that he's likely used to teaching college players some really basic stuff before turning them loose more.

[3rdand12]

The guy had Ryan Fitzpatrick and Scott chandler put up respectable numbers. Even David Nelson got good game action. The owner functioned much better under his watch than it did with the prior oc. While good he's not a miracle worker and yes good defenses matched up against Bills inferior talent at the skill positions. Funny how Bills upgrade offensive talent yet are playing worse.

well thats yet to be proven i hope you agree. potential though? hell yes on the upswing. what happened to the 3 year window for receivers ie Wood , who was the target on those long balls against jets

[ko12010]

Gailey, because he was here just last year. His system, his offense was designed with many of these players in mind. Not to mention, because it was the Bills offense, the playbook stays with the Bills and the players here know the plays. So it should be a much easier and efficient way to incorporate these few plays.

 

Just because Gailey's tenure was overall a losing one, that doesn't mean everything he did was bad. Why not take the best of the stuff and add it to the best of the new stuff? No, lets be blinded by our dislikeof all things Gailey and dismiss the fact that he actually had a decent offense.

Haha jesus do you even know how ludicrous what you're saying is? Have you ever heard of a coach being ousted and the new regime taking from his philosophies? Or a coach being demoted to a coordinator position then having a new HC come in? This is unprecedented, stupid thinking but many here are acting like it's a legit argument. Yeah, let's have a whole new regime come in, but wait--the new HC is going to run the old HC's offense. The answer to the bolded is that NO ONE does this. No new coaching staff will EVER F******** do this. They have their own philosophies and knowledge to draw from. They've worked their ways up into more prominent positions. They are going to do things how they see it best. And if you look at my previous posts, and almost all by people commenting on Gailey, it's acknowledged that not everything he did was bad. Some things were good. But these posts are some of the stupidest I've ever seen on TBD, and that's saying something

[Dan]

Haha jesus do you even know how ludicrous what you're saying is? Have you ever heard of a coach being ousted and the new regime taking from his philosophies? Or a coach being demoted to a coordinator position then having a new HC come in? This is unprecedented, stupid thinking but many here are acting like it's a legit argument. Yeah, let's have a whole new regime come in, but wait--the new HC is going to run the old HC's offense. The answer to the bolded is that NO ONE does this. No new coaching staff will EVER F******** do this. They have their own philosophies and knowledge to draw from. They've worked their ways up into more prominent positions. They are going to do things how they see it best. And if you look at my previous posts, and almost all by people commenting on Gailey, it's acknowledged that not everything he did was bad. Some things were good. But these posts are some of the stupidest I've ever seen on TBD, and that's saying something

Just because everyone does it, that doesn't make it right or the best approach. Not to mention, our OC is drawing on his vast experience... in college! And it shows quite frequently. Not to mention, I recall Marrone talking about he had been studying offense for some time going back to the K-Gun to put together a hybrid offense that is best. If so, why not look at Gailey's last year?

 

I'll say this one last time, because you're obviously not getting it. I'll even put it in its own paragraph so perhaps you actually read it...

 

I'm not saying use all of Gailey's offense. I'm saying adapt SOME of the plays/formations/etc. for use in the new offense. Not everything Gailey did was bad. Just like not everything they're doing now is bad. Take the best of the best and incorporate them together.

Edited September 28, 2013 by Dan

[ajzepp]

I can't argue with much of the AJ, but some things are disturbing.

 

We have a rookie head coach, OC, and a rookie qb who missed much of the preseason. What do they do? They play hurry-up, which keeps the defense on the field longer. This makes it tougher for them as well as their rookie DC. What is the rush to hand Spiller the ball and send him up the middle? I am not seeing it.

 

I simply think that the Bills offense needs to be a bit more sophisticated before they focus SO much on the hurry-up.

 

 

You're certainly not the sort of poster I was referring to though, my friend. And what you said is exactly the sort of discussion that DOES make this board great. Im not saying people shouldn't talk about what they think is going well or not going well. I'm talking more about this absolute and complete overreaction by the falling sky brigade. Those of us who love the game will debate the merits of the team's philosophy, good or bad, but we'll fall well short of the neurotic doomsdayers who seem to come out of the woodwork in droves on Sunday's where we put up an "L".