Setting up the Global Warming lies to come

[DC Tom]

Damn it OC, you made me have to read that piece of **** article!

 

I have no idea what the hell these clowns are talking about when they infer that "the Oceans are taking up increased amounts of heat". Maybe the actual report will make more sense, or the person writing the article got it wrong. Without the actual report, I can't support or refute thier claims, but it sounds like their models don't work because they don't have enough data yet to understand the real situation. It sounds like they have assumed they understand all the variables, which should clue anyone WITH a clue in that they don't.

 

And about the pollution, I did not say carbon (CO2), my example was ozone. But what I can tell you is that small amounts of CO2 are needed by plants, massive amounts of it in the atmosphere is generally not a good thing, because we don't understand the Earth's mechanisms of elimination very well. Anything we can do to reduce it is a good thing, if it's done responsibly.

 

So in closing, I'll have to give this article the DC Tom treatment, call them all idiots and call it a day. That article is a shitsmear of a disaster and makes absolutely no sense. No wonder people are confused by it.

 

I will say this though: don't lump all climate scientist in with this political agenda BS these Germans are apparently trying to pull. The people I know and work with are honest people trying to understand how Earth works, not make some political statement. It wouldn't be fair to the real scientists to have these clowns drag them all down...

 

Welcome to my !@#$ing world.

 

Next time, lead with that. I find it saves a lot of time.

[....lybob]

OC doesn't seem to understand the difference between CO2 and particulate matter, OC probably doesn't understand that particulate matter can lead to cooling when it is in the upper atmosphere and yet lead to increases in melting once it settles on ice and snow, OC probably doesn't understand that water vapor is a greenhouse gas yet can also cause increased cloud cover which leads to cooling, OC probably doesn't understand the multitude of positive and negative feedback loops involved in climate science but emotocons he probably understands.

[TheMadCap]

Welcome to my !@#$ing world.

 

Next time, lead with that. I find it saves a lot of time.

 

well you could have helped me by just saying that first post! ASS!

 

OC doesn't seem to understand the difference between CO2 and particulate matter, OC probably doesn't understand that particulate matter can lead to cooling when it is in the upper atmosphere and yet lead to increases in melting once it settles on ice and snow, OC probably doesn't understand that water vapor is a greenhouse gas yet can also cause increased cloud cover which leads to cooling, OC probably doesn't understand the multitude of positive and negative feedback loops involved in climate science but emotocons he probably understands.

 

All true, but this is a science discussion. Most of what he was mocking seemed to be more of the politics of the debate.

 

Bottom line is anyone who says either Global Warming is a FACT or Global Warming is a complete fabrication is a hack. It cannot be shown to be either at present...

[OCinBuffalo]

Damn it OC, you made me have to read that piece of **** article!

 

They can ban me, but cannot take away my ability, or my propensity to see my will done, and my trolls work!

 

 

I have no idea what the hell these clowns are talking about when they infer that "the Oceans are taking up increased amounts of heat". Maybe the actual report will make more sense, or the person writing the article got it wrong. Without the actual report, I can't support or refute thier claims, but it sounds like their models don't work because they don't have enough data yet to understand the real situation. It sounds like they have assumed they understand all the variables, which should clue anyone WITH a clue in that they don't.

 

 

That's funny, neither do I. But, what appears to be important to you, is whether you friend who does this for a living has any earthly idea WTF they are inferring.

 

"Sounds like"? Nope. They are saying it. They are saying that not only is the ocean absorbing the heat, but that it is being stored at the bottom. Again, convenient. A simple perusal of ocean surface temps over the last 15 years is too likely to produce the same results as air temps = no change. And really, that sorta stands to common sense, and a basic understanding of physics. So....its a real Race to the Bottom! Yes, the only place where the heat is hiding, is also the place we don't have 24/7 temperature monitoring. What a coincidence!

 

And about the pollution, I did not say carbon (CO2), my example was ozone. But what I can tell you is that small amounts of CO2 are needed by plants, massive amounts of it in the atmosphere is generally not a good thing, because we don't understand the Earth's mechanisms of elimination very well. Anything we can do to reduce it is a good thing, if it's done responsibly.

 

Ok, but that doesn't address how carbon can be both the cause and the mitigation of Global Warming, at the same time.

 

Look, I bet if you asked most people, of any class/belief/country, if they'd rather have pollution or not, they'd all say no. But, that's a child's question. You like you sneakers, and making them causes pollution. Life is balance.

 

Environtologists want nothing to do with balance. They want their way, period. Their publicly stated goals include bringing about a wholesale "way of life" change. You living in your own house? BAD! You should be living in a ****ty little apartment in a city, and the animals should be running freely through your now abandoned property.

 

The trouble is: you like your house and your lawn, which wastes water and causes you to introduce fertilizer and pesticide into the water table. EVIL! So, the only way to force you to live in that crappy apartment? Scare you into doing it because the world is coming to an end if you don't. It's the same old song: they can't win at the ballot box, so they tried the courts. They lost there, so what's left: Hollywood BS. I told you this was all about making a movie, didn't I?

 

Consider: how many movies/media shows have they done? Vs. How many laws have they passed?

 

So in closing, I'll have to give this article the DC Tom treatment, call them all idiots and call it a day. That article is a shitsmear of a disaster and makes absolutely no sense. No wonder people are confused by it.

 

Whatever in the world makes you think I am confused by it? As I've said repeatedly, these are the same tactics I've encoutered on numerous occaisions in my job, which is why I immediately recognized them as such back in 2006 when this whole thing began in earnest. That's right around the time that the "denier" word started getting used.

 

There is nothing confusing, to me at least, about any of this. They are grasping at straws on the way down the hole. The latest straws are: "bottom of the ocean" and "carbon pollution both causes and mitigates Global Warming, at the same time".

 

The "we need fear to get this done" part? That is a new one. But, that part is specific to ze Germans. So, why should we expect anything different?

 

I will say this though: don't lump all climate scientist in with this political agenda BS these Germans are apparently trying to pull. The people I know and work with are honest people trying to understand how Earth works, not make some political statement. It wouldn't be fair to the real scientists to have these clowns drag them all down...

 

Let's make a deal then:

 

I will agree to your request, if you agree not to lump me in with "oil company executve" or "hollocaust denier" or "luddite" or "bible thumper that says only God can change the climate" or "science hating enemy of science", because I am none of those things. I do math and science at work, every day. I'm just a guy who knows BS when I see it.

 

In seriousness: I am an expert observer of human behavior at work. I didn't set out to become one, but, it has developed as a result of the kind of work I do. What I have observed, is a singular set of behavior on the part of MANY, not all, climate "scientists". Be it personal need for funding, be it personal political agendas meshing with those who can give them funding, be it need for personal glory, be it some combination of all? The behavior is undeniable.

 

You don't see arheaologists with this behavior, certainly not to the scope and scale. Why?

 

Nobody is handing out millions of $ to confirm their political views using Archeaology. But, we did see that in the 30s, didn't we?

[TheMadCap]

They can ban me, but cannot take away my ability, or my propensity to see my will done, and my trolls work!

 

 

 

That's funny, neither do I. But, what appears to be important to you, is whether you friend who does this for a living has any earthly idea WTF they are inferring.

 

"Sounds like"? Nope. They are saying it. They are saying that not only is the ocean absorbing the heat, but that it is being stored at the bottom. Again, convenient. A simple perusal of ocean surface temps over the last 15 years is too likely to produce the same results as air temps = no change. And really, that sorta stands to common sense, and a basic understanding of physics. So....its a real Race to the Bottom! Yes, the only place where the heat is hiding, is also the place we don't have 24/7 temperature monitoring. What a coincidence!

 

 

 

Ok, but that doesn't address how carbon can be both the cause and the mitigation of Global Warming, at the same time.

 

Look, I bet if you asked most people, of any class/belief/country, if they'd rather have pollution or not, they'd all say no. But, that's a child's question. You like you sneakers, and making them causes pollution. Life is balance.

 

Environtologists want nothing to do with balance. They want their way, period. Their publicly stated goals include bringing about a wholesale "way of life" change. You living in your own house? BAD! You should be living in a ****ty little apartment in a city, and the animals should be running freely through your now abandoned property.

 

The trouble is: you like your house and your lawn, which wastes water and causes you to introduce fertilizer and pesticide into the water table. EVIL! So, the only way to force you to live in that crappy apartment? Scare you into doing it because the world is coming to an end if you don't. It's the same old song: they can't win at the ballot box, so they tried the courts. They lost there, so what's left: Hollywood BS. I told you this was all about making a movie, didn't I?

 

Consider: how many movies/media shows have they done? Vs. How many laws have they passed?

 

 

 

Whatever in the world makes you think I am confused by it? As I've said repeatedly, these are the same tactics I've encoutered on numerous occaisions in my job, which is why I immediately recognized them as such back in 2006 when this whole thing began in earnest. That's right around the time that the "denier" word started getting used.

 

There is nothing confusing, to me at least, about any of this. They are grasping at straws on the way down the hole. The latest straws are: "bottom of the ocean" and "carbon pollution both causes and mitigates Global Warming, at the same time".

 

The "we need fear to get this done" part? That is a new one. But, that part is specific to ze Germans. So, why should we expect anything different?

 

 

 

Let's make a deal then:

 

I will agree to your request, if you agree not to lump me in with "oil company executve" or "hollocaust denier" or "luddite" or "bible thumper that says only God can change the climate" or "science hating enemy of science", because I am none of those things. I do math and science at work, every day. I'm just a guy who knows BS when I see it.

 

In seriousness: I am an expert observer of human behavior at work. I didn't set out to become one, but, it has developed as a result of the kind of work I do. What I have observed, is a singular set of behavior on the part of MANY, not all, climate "scientists". Be it personal need for funding, be it personal political agendas meshing with those who can give them funding, be it need for personal glory, be it some combination of all? The behavior is undeniable.

 

You don't see arheaologists with this behavior, certainly not to the scope and scale. Why?

 

Nobody is handing out millions of $ to confirm their political views using Archeaology. But, we did see that in the 30s, didn't we?

 

I'll take that deal, my friend. I never, and would never have lumped you in with that lot in any case.

 

Not sure how to address your question regarding carbon. CO2 isn't going to prevent warming, it will definitely cause increased heating in the atmosphere. I suspect it's more twisted information from that ****ty article.

 

It is sad and disheartening to see some in the "scientific" community resort to anything they can for political gain. Science is the search for FACT, not TRUTH, they should remember that and keep it in mind at all times.

 

I'll ask my colleauges next time I see them what they think about this, most likely, they will want to read the actual, published work and not some political puff piece.

Edited November 12, 2013 by TheMadCap

[OCinBuffalo]

OC doesn't seem to understand the difference between CO2 and particulate matter, OC probably doesn't understand that particulate matter can lead to cooling when it is in the upper atmosphere and yet lead to increases in melting once it settles on ice and snow, OC probably doesn't understand that water vapor is a greenhouse gas yet can also cause increased cloud cover which leads to cooling, OC probably doesn't understand the multitude of positive and negative feedback loops involved in climate science but emotocons he probably understands.

...lybob, please. I am not you. You are you. That's the first thing to remember. Thus, I understand all of the above, and more.

 

This is about particulate matter being in once place, the atmosphere, yet causing 2 effects simultaneously. How can the excess of carbon in the atmosphere, not in the snow, or at the bottom of the ocean, both block radiation, and, at the same time, cause global warming? It stands to reason that it can only be doing 1 of them.

 

Volcanoes hurl...something...I'm not touching that word , let's say: particulate matter, into the atmosphere. We have seen a cooling effect as a result.

 

So, if carbon emissions do the same thing? Ok, I can see that. But that's all they are saying, is it?

 

No, they are saying that the same particulate matter, in the same place, both causes cooling, and warming, at the same time, and, that THIS is the reason that all of the computer models have failed so miserably. I understand particulate matter: the question that remains is, can you be logical?

 

If you can, then you'd understand the significance of saying an entire "settled" theory...now hinges on 2 speculations. If both prove false, the theory dies right there. But then...shouldn't this "settled" theory have been able to stand on its own, without the need for last minute, "saving" speculations?

All true, but this is a science discussion. Most of what he was mocking seemed to be more of the politics of the debate.

 

Bottom line is anyone who says either Global Warming is a FACT or Global Warming is a complete fabrication is a hack. It cannot be shown to be either at present...

I have been applying logic. That's what I do. Especially to ...lybob, 100% of the time, and ~99% of the time, it stumps him.

 

Your bottom line is all the majority of the right leaning posters on this board have been saying since I've been here. "We don't know". They used to get called all sorts of names, and told they were enemy's of science for their trouble, for even daring to suggest that all wasn't exactly as ALGORE said it was. That is the history of this issue on this board.

 

The inference I make: that the whole thing is likely to be phony, due to the behavior we see from the left, is mine alone. Put it this way: Global Warming being at best way overstated, and at worst, a complete fabrication, is what fits the pattern of behavior we've seen the best.

 

Why else do we have supposed ethics in Science professors, forging documents and lying about it, and then having the rest of the environtologists close ranks on that behavior rather than condemn it?

[OCinBuffalo]

I'll take that deal, my friend. I never, and would never have lumped you in with that lot in any case.

 

Not sure how to address your question regarding carbon. CO2 isn't going to prevent warming, it will definitely cause increased heating in the atmosphere. I suspect it's more twisted information from that ****ty article.

Dude let's clarify:

1. I have no question.

2. The carbon both causing and mitigating warming at the same time is speculation offered, not by me, for why the models don't work.

3. There are many places, besides this article, where this speculation is offered as a way to save the AGP theory's ass.

4. Going forward, #2 and the bottom of the ocean thing are the only thing standing between IPCC, climate scientists in general(they will all get the beating = unfair), and leftists en masse, from a political whipping that is worse than the one they will get for Obamacare, if you can even imagine that.

5. These speculations are being offered as a holding action: they are hoping they can scare up some research in the time it takes to prove that both speculations are retarded, and before the ass falls out of this entire thing.

It is sad and disheartening to see some in the "scientific" community resort to anything they can for political gain. Science is the search for FACT, not TRUTH, they should remember that and keep it in mind at all times.

 

I'll ask my colleauges next time I see them what they think about this, most likely, they will want to read the actual, published work and not some political puff piece.

Ask them this: what should be done with the climate scientists who have seen fit to cause the EU, Germany especially, to waste a trillion dollars destroying their power grid, such that many Germans face the very real possibility of not being able to heat their homes this winter?

 

Ask them if their buddies in climate science's political ideology is worth sending us backwards, ask them if science in general is about sending us backwards.

 

Ask them if they support Excuse #1, the bottom of the ocean, or Excuse #2 Carbon particulate as having amazing properties such that it creates and destroys Global Warming at the same time.

 

Ask them why a computer scientist seems to be more capable at providing reasonable skepticism about the theories and now, speculations in their field, than they are.

[DC Tom]

It is sad and disheartening to see some in the "scientific" community resort to anything they can for political gain. Science is the search for FACT, not TRUTH, they should remember that and keep it in mind at all times.

 

I'll forward this to James Hansen for you...

[B-Man]

132 Countries Storm Out of U.N. Global Warming Talks: Not Offered Enough Money

 

 

The modern “environmental” movement has little or nothing to do with the environment, and a great deal to do with the real green stuff: money. One hundred thirty-two governments are in a huff because their latest attempt at extortion has failed:

 

Poor countries pulled out of the United Nations climate talks during a fight over transferring wealth from richer countries to fight global warming.

 

 

 

Wait! How would giving corrupt third world governments hundreds of billions of dollars fight global warming? Don’t be silly! Everything a liberal wants to do, for whatever reason, “fights global warming.”

The G77 and China bloc led 132 poor countries in a walk out during talks about “loss and damage” compensation for the consequences of global warming that countries cannot adapt to, like Typhoon Haiyan.

 

 

Typhoon Haiyan was not a “consequence of global warming.” There have always been typhoons, and there will be more typhoons for thousands of years to come. Giving billions of dollars to corrupt dictators or third-world politicians to enable them to live the high life won’t prevent a single typhoon.

 

Heat waves and droughts! Did they just start recently? Of course not, but no proposition is too absurd if you hope to gain billions of dollars by advancing it.

Rich countries have so far resisted these proposals. Australia, Europe and the U.S. have all argued that the issue should be addressed in 2015, when the world is set to discuss a comprehensive climate agreement. Developed countries have also banded together to block attempts to create a whole new bureaucracy to handle climate “reparations” to poor countries.

 

 

 

“Rich countries” have refused to pay “climate reparations”? Good Lord, I should hope so! Any democratically elected government that agreed to pay “climate reparations” would be lucky to stay in office for another 48 hours.

[Koko78]

http://news.yahoo.com/rescue-underway-russian-ship-trapped-antarctic-ice-015038322.html

 

Those poor people. Stuck in the ice during the beginning of Summer in Antarctica with the melting ice forming so quickly and so thickly that they cannot get out.

 

Damn us western nations and our ice-melting pollution!

[ExiledInIllinois]

http://news.yahoo.com/rescue-underway-russian-ship-trapped-antarctic-ice-015038322.html

 

Those poor people. Stuck in the ice during the beginning of Summer in Antarctica with the melting ice forming so quickly and so thickly that they cannot get out.

 

Damn us western nations and our ice-melting pollution!

 

Enviros are getting cleaner here, clean water freezes.

 

It really has been a different start to winter even up here... I never seen so much ice on the river and lake so early... Gonna thaw briefly, then another sub-zero blast is coming. It is those blasts that "knit" the ice up even stronger! We are a whole month early this year.

[Nanker]

Healing waters. Thank President Nixon for that.

[B-Man]

The Climate Change Gods Must Be Crazy

 

I mentioned a couple of weeks ago here that the climate change crusade has unraveled so badly that it has become a bore to follow. The media and the public started losing interest long ago. In designing an environmental policy course for next semester, several faculty told me “students are really bored with the subject,” and advised sidestepping climate for the most part. Has anyone seen Al Gore lately? I’m wondering if he’s growing a beard again.

 

But you really can’t help but savor the complete farce of the boatload of climate scientists currently stuck in the ice in Antarctica. Even thought it is summer there right now, the region is experiencing record ice levels. Please, please tell me Michael Mann is along for the trip; and can’t he just cut the ship loose with his indestructible hockey stick? Because, lo and behold, the ice-breaker sent to rescue the expedition has itself become stuck in ice:

(CNN)

— South Pole weather has stymied a rescue by a Chinese icebreaker trying to reach an expedition vessel trapped for the past four days in frozen seas, a ship officer told CNN Friday.

The Chinese icebreaker Xue Long, or Snow Dragon, was just six nautical miles away from the rescue, but now it’s stuck in an Antarctica ice floe, too.

The Chinese crew is hoping a French icebreaker 14 nautical miles away will arrive and offer relief, said Zhu Li, chief officer of the Chinese ship.

But it’s likely the French vessel Astrolabe will also be slowed by the polar cap’s extreme frigidity, Zhu said.

 

Waiting to be rescued by the French is a touch not even Mark Steyn could lampoon sufficiently.

 

 

 

.

[Koko78]

The Climate Change Gods Must Be Crazy

 

I mentioned a couple of weeks ago here that the climate change crusade has unraveled so badly that it has become a bore to follow. The media and the public started losing interest long ago. In designing an environmental policy course for next semester, several faculty told me “students are really bored with the subject,” and advised sidestepping climate for the most part. Has anyone seen Al Gore lately? I’m wondering if he’s growing a beard again.

 

But you really can’t help but savor the complete farce of the boatload of climate scientists currently stuck in the ice in Antarctica. Even thought it is summer there right now, the region is experiencing record ice levels. Please, please tell me Michael Mann is along for the trip; and can’t he just cut the ship loose with his indestructible hockey stick? Because, lo and behold, the ice-breaker sent to rescue the expedition has itself become stuck in ice:

(CNN)

— South Pole weather has stymied a rescue by a Chinese icebreaker trying to reach an expedition vessel trapped for the past four days in frozen seas, a ship officer told CNN Friday.

The Chinese icebreaker Xue Long, or Snow Dragon, was just six nautical miles away from the rescue, but now it’s stuck in an Antarctica ice floe, too.

The Chinese crew is hoping a French icebreaker 14 nautical miles away will arrive and offer relief, said Zhu Li, chief officer of the Chinese ship.

But it’s likely the French vessel Astrolabe will also be slowed by the polar cap’s extreme frigidity, Zhu said.

 

Waiting to be rescued by the French is a touch not even Mark Steyn could lampoon sufficiently.

 

Clearly the ice problem in Antarctica's summer is due to the Earth's atmosphere heating up because of human CO2 emissions, which causes the ocean floors to become colder, contributing to the freezing temperatures by induction, convection or space aliens.

 

Look, a shiny object!

[DC Tom]

Clearly the ice problem in Antarctica's summer is due to the Earth's atmosphere heating up because of human CO2 emissions, which causes the ocean floors to become colder, contributing to the freezing temperatures by induction, convection or space aliens.

 

Look, a shiny object!

 

No, it's because global warming causes the glaciers to melt faster, which causes them to move faster. So all "sea ice" is actually the Antarctic ice cap sliding off the continent into the ocean.

[Alaska Darin]

Ocean front property in Arizona...From my front porch I can see the sea...

[Nanker]

 

I'm crushing their heads.

 

I'm crushing their heads.

 

I'm crushing their heads.

 

I'm crushing their heads.

 

I'm crushing their heads.

[keepthefaith]

Meanwhile, Helicopters sit and wait.

[Koko78]

No, it's because global warming causes the glaciers to melt faster, which causes them to move faster. So all "sea ice" is actually the Antarctic ice cap sliding off the continent into the ocean.

 

Eeesh, I hope Antarctica doesn't flip over like Guam from the weight of the sliding glaciers. Those poor penguins.

[Azalin]

They are saying that not only is the ocean absorbing the heat, but that it is being stored at the bottom. Again, convenient. A simple perusal of ocean surface temps over the last 15 years is too likely to produce the same results as air temps = no change. And really, that sorta stands to common sense, and a basic understanding of physics. So....its a real Race to the Bottom! Yes, the only place where the heat is hiding, is also the place we don't have 24/7 temperature monitoring. What a coincidence!

this is something I've been wondering about, because one of the fundamentals of thermodynamics is that warm water should rise, not sink. besides, how can water absorb heat from the atmosphere and store it in pockets deep under the surface without that heat dissipating?