YoloinOhio Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 Excerpted from another thread and posted here: Here's a list of the most recent first round QBs and where they were drafted: Matthew Stafford 1st overall 2009 Mark Sanchez 5th overall 2009 Josh Freeman 17th overall 2009 Sam Bradford 1st overall 2010 Tim Tebow 25th overall 2010 Cam Newton 1st overall 2011 Jake Locker 8th overall 2011 Blaine Gabbert 10th overall 2011 Christian Ponder 12th overall 2011 Andrew Luck 1st overall 2012 RG3 2nd overall 2012 Ryan Tannehill 8th overall 2012 Brandon Weeden 22nd overall 2012 Only two of those players have established themselves as bona fide quality NFL starters, Stafford and Newton. Both of those guys were taken first overall. Of the other players drafted in the Top 5, it's looking very likely that Luck and RG3 will have great careers and it's looking more and more certain that Sanchez and Bradford are gonna be busts. Then you have players taken outside the top 5 where EJ was selected: Josh Freeman, Tim Tebow, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder, Ryan Tannehill, and Brandon Weeden. I would take EJ over any of those guys. Only Tannehill and Locker have an argument and Locker is in his 3rd NFL season. Then you consider how well EJ has played especially considering he missed half the preseason and 5 weeks of the regular season. Then you consider that the Bills traded down and still got Manuel. Then you realize that people posting on this board and expressing disappointment in EJ's rookie season really have no idea what they're talking about because they have no idea what a rookie QB in the NFL is realistically expected to do. The fact that Russell Wilson is playing like a high first round draft pick doesn't denigrate the fact that EJ has had a very good rookie season. Great post. I think that, unfortunately, it is like talking to a wall (see what I did there) as some "fans" want EJ to fail just so they can be right.
San-O Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 Honestly, I would be much more interested in the last three (3): A number of QBs have come and gone in Buffalo the last decade or so, and having a three game beginning means very little, IMO. Show me who they progress or stand up after NFL D coordinators have some game film on them and know what to take away. With E.J., don't worry about the deep ball too much.
NoSaint Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 Excerpted from another thread and posted here: Here's a list of the most recent first round QBs and where they were drafted: Matthew Stafford 1st overall 2009 Mark Sanchez 5th overall 2009 Josh Freeman 17th overall 2009 Sam Bradford 1st overall 2010 Tim Tebow 25th overall 2010 Cam Newton 1st overall 2011 Jake Locker 8th overall 2011 Blaine Gabbert 10th overall 2011 Christian Ponder 12th overall 2011 Andrew Luck 1st overall 2012 RG3 2nd overall 2012 Ryan Tannehill 8th overall 2012 Brandon Weeden 22nd overall 2012 Only two of those players have established themselves as bona fide quality NFL starters, Stafford and Newton. Both of those guys were taken first overall. Of the other players drafted in the Top 5, it's looking very likely that Luck and RG3 will have great careers and it's looking more and more certain that Sanchez and Bradford are gonna be busts. Then you have players taken outside the top 5 where EJ was selected: Josh Freeman, Tim Tebow, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder, Ryan Tannehill, and Brandon Weeden. I would take EJ over any of those guys. Only Tannehill and Locker have an argument and Locker is in his 3rd NFL season. Then you consider how well EJ has played especially considering he missed half the preseason and 5 weeks of the regular season. Then you consider that the Bills traded down and still got Manuel. Then you realize that people posting on this board and expressing disappointment in EJ's rookie season really have no idea what they're talking about because they have no idea what a rookie QB in the NFL is realistically expected to do. The fact that Russell Wilson is playing like a high first round draft pick doesn't denigrate the fact that EJ has had a very good rookie season. Well said. Perspective is big on stuff like this and if you are just watching the bills, and sportscenter - it's tough to manage expectations fairly. Every highlight you see is someone making their best, or worst play. Makes it hard to weigh or compare guys.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 Well said. Perspective is big on stuff like this and if you are just watching the bills, and sportscenter - it's tough to manage expectations fairly. Every highlight you see is someone making their best, or worst play. Makes it hard to weigh or compare guys. When you see football discussions that are so shallow and lacking in perspective and then you hear those same people discuss things as complex as politics or economics, it just makes you shudder and despair for the future of mankind. :lol:
BADOLBILZ Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 I don't know why you could be down on him as EJ has played pretty damn well the last two weeks. You can't blame him for the Atlanta loss. Anytime you put up 31 points, you deserve the W. He had a good game against the Jets........but come to find out that all QB's have been having good games against the Jets. By comparison, EJ's day was modest. The Atlanta game he played poorly for 59 minutes. He threw a short pass off the mark by 10 feet that should have been a game-changing walk-in pic 6 and threw another pass off the mark to TJ Graham by about 10 feet that thumped off the cb after Graham alertly got over to defend it. The one long pass he completed to a wide-open Robert Woods was very poorly targeted and Woods ended up getting a helmet to the chin for catching it. Manuel was bad throwing the football until the very end when he strung together 3 completions in the clutch.
thebandit27 Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 He had a good game against the Jets........but come to find out that all QB's have been having good games against the Jets. By comparison, EJ's day was modest. The Atlanta game he played poorly for 59 minutes. He threw a short pass off the mark by 10 feet that should have been a game-changing walk-in pic 6 and threw another pass off the mark to TJ Graham by about 10 feet that thumped off the cb after Graham alertly got over to defend it. The one long pass he completed to a wide-open Robert Woods was very poorly targeted and Woods ended up getting a helmet to the chin for catching it. Manuel was bad throwing the football until the very end when he strung together 3 completions in the clutch. He didn't have a great game, but you're of the mark on the Woods throw. That was a timing throw underneath the safety and was placed correctly. He does need to play better than that though.
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 7, 2013 Author Posted December 7, 2013 Anyone who was here during the Jauron era knows that CBiscuit vehemently defended a stat about early coaching record that he felt proved that Dick Jauron was the equivalent of Bill Belichick. For 4 years......at which point Jauron had accumulated 8 losing seasons in 9 attempts. The circumstances, past coaching success of the two coaches etc.. were impertinent in his opinion. I am not giving up on EJ but the bottom line is that these two QB's arrived in the NFL at different levels of preparedness and for good or bad stats do not tell that story. Wilson was a polished, fundamentally sound passer........EJ was not and still is not. The Bills need to work on that. Ah yes. Badol trots this out every month, trying to get personal, and not attempting to stay on topic. No matters how times you wrongly state it, I'm still 100% right. PRE-BRADY, Belichick has a worse coaching record than Dick Jauron. Shockingly, when he got a top 3 QB of all time, he became a great coach. Small piece? I was simply saying that if Wilson won 4 of his first 6 games including a great win against NE, very few pwoplw would have been calling for a new QB 2 weeks later. So...I'm disagreeing with your entire premise (not a small peice of it), if that's allowed. I get it. You need to be the contrarian. That's your character on this board. We're all impressed. A lot of people could argue that Manuel's 296 yard game and comeback win against the #2 overall defense in the NFL in Carolina is more impressive than Wilson's rookie year victory against NE and their 25th ranked defense. But hey, any time you got a chance to knock a Bills player, you gotta take it. He had a good game against the Jets........but come to find out that all QB's have been having good games against the Jets. By comparison, EJ's day was modest. The Atlanta game he played poorly for 59 minutes. He threw a short pass off the mark by 10 feet that should have been a game-changing walk-in pic 6 and threw another pass off the mark to TJ Graham by about 10 feet that thumped off the cb after Graham alertly got over to defend it. The one long pass he completed to a wide-open Robert Woods was very poorly targeted and Woods ended up getting a helmet to the chin for catching it. Manuel was bad throwing the football until the very end when he strung together 3 completions in the clutch. Drew Brees threw for 382, but 2 tds and 2 ints. In 2 starts against the Jets, Brady threw 1 td, 1 int, had a high passing yardage total of 228, and completed under 50% of his passes in each game. I guess that's not all Qbs.
Dibs Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 (edited) He had a good game against the Jets........but come to find out that all QB's have been having good games against the Jets. By comparison, EJ's day was modest. ..... You must have missed my reply to you the last time you made this claim. Here it is again with Tannehill added. All QB performances against Jets this season: Brady(2nd game) 22-46-228-0-1 (4 sack for 23 yds) QBR 53.5 Freeman 15-31-210-1-1 (3 sacks for 25 yds) QBR 67.9 Brady(1st game) 19-39-185-1-0 (1 sack for 7 yds) QBR 71.0 Manuel(1st game) 19-42-243-1-0 (8 sacks for 85 yds) QBR 71.8 Brees 30-51-382-2-2 (2 sacks for 16 yds) QBR 79.0 Tannehill 28-43-331-2-1 (1 sack for 3 yds) QBR 94.2 Flacco 17-26-273-1-1 (4 sacks for 28 yds) QBR 97.1 Ryan 36-45-319-2-0 (2 sacks for 12 yds) QBR 113.1 Roethlisberger 23-30-264-1-0 (4 sacks for 24 yds) QBR 113.8 Manuel(2nd game) 20-28-245-2-0 (1 sack for 0 yds) QBR 121.9 Locker/Fitz 21-32-257-4-0 (2 sacks for 13 yds) QBR 131.9 Dalton 19-30-325-5-1 (1 sack for 2 yds) QBR 141.7 This doesn't prove he will be good.....and none of his stats prove that he will be good, bad, horrible or great.......but it does prove that he had more than a modest performance against the Jets when compared to other QB performances against them. Please, give a player his dues when he earns them. Edited December 7, 2013 by Dibs
San Jose Bills Fan Posted December 7, 2013 Posted December 7, 2013 You must have missed my reply to you the last time you made this claim. Here it is again with Tannehill added. All QB performances against Jets this season: Brady(2nd game) 22-46-228-0-1 (4 sack for 23 yds) QBR 53.5 Freeman 15-31-210-1-1 (3 sacks for 25 yds) QBR 67.9 Brady(1st game) 19-39-185-1-0 (1 sack for 7 yds) QBR 71.0 Manuel(1st game) 19-42-243-1-0 (8 sacks for 85 yds) QBR 71.8 Brees 30-51-382-2-2 (2 sacks for 16 yds) QBR 79.0 Tannehill 28-43-331-2-1 (1 sack for 3 yds) QBR 94.2 Flacco 17-26-273-1-1 (4 sacks for 28 yds) QBR 97.1 Ryan 36-45-319-2-0 (2 sacks for 12 yds) QBR 113.1 Roethlisberger 23-30-264-1-0 (4 sacks for 24 yds) QBR 113.8 Manuel(2nd game) 20-28-245-2-0 (1 sack for 0 yds) QBR 121.9 Locker/Fitz 21-32-257-4-0 (2 sacks for 13 yds) QBR 131.9 Dalton 19-30-325-5-1 (1 sack for 2 yds) QBR 141.7 This doesn't prove he will be good.....and none of his stats prove that he will be good, bad, horrible or great.......but it does prove that he had more than a modest performance against the Jets when compared to other QB performances against them. Please, give a player his dues when he earns them. I'm sure he saw it last time too.
mdk Posted December 8, 2013 Posted December 8, 2013 i am still not sold on Wilson Am a former Buffalonian who lives in the Pacific Northwest. I watch Russell Wilson weekly and read about him daily. My observations: he lives the game, is extraordinarily prepared, sneaky fast, has a rifle of an arm, computer-like accuracy, senses pressure like a barometer, and escapes tackles like Houdini. "Not sold on (Russell) Wilson"? Hmm, you, sir, are a very tough sell indeed!
Mr. WEO Posted December 8, 2013 Posted December 8, 2013 I get it. You need to be the contrarian. That's your character on this board. We're all impressed. A lot of people could argue that Manuel's 296 yard game and comeback win against the #2 overall defense in the NFL in Carolina is more impressive than Wilson's rookie year victory against NE and their 25th ranked defense. But hey, any time you got a chance to knock a Bills player, you gotta take it. Look, I don't know how else to explain it to you. You said fans here would have been calling for Wilson's replacement, even after leading to the Bills to a win over NE as a rookie. I'm saying this is ridiculous. I have nothing against EJ at all. I think he's a good kid who could be a very good NFL QB. Your contention about WIlson was poorly thought out and I'm calling you on it. Stop making this about something else. You stepped in it, now own up to your post.
NoSaint Posted December 8, 2013 Posted December 8, 2013 (edited) Am a former Buffalonian who lives in the Pacific Northwest. I watch Russell Wilson weekly and read about him daily. My observations: he lives the game, is extraordinarily prepared, sneaky fast, has a rifle of an arm, computer-like accuracy, senses pressure like a barometer, and escapes tackles like Houdini. "Not sold on (Russell) Wilson"? Hmm, you, sir, are a very tough sell indeed! And I'll say again, seems humble and hardworking in a way that some of the young guys struggling don't seem to portray. He seems to get that the only thing he's accomplished is the right to keep trying to get better in his next film study, practice, or game.... There's no selling his brand, no fighting with the "haters" or any other sense of "I've arrived" Edited December 8, 2013 by NoSaint
thebandit27 Posted December 8, 2013 Posted December 8, 2013 (edited) And I'll say again, seems humble and hardworking in a way that some of the young guys struggling don't seem to portray. He seems to get that the only thing he's accomplished is the right to keep trying to get better in his next film study, practice, or game.... There's no selling his brand, no fighting with the "haters" or any other sense of "I've arrived" That kind of attitude may be why some GMs prefer to draft kids with a spiritual background; it tends to foster that humility of which you speak. Aaron Rodgers is another good example. On the Bills, those also seem to be some of the quietest yet hardest working guys: Kyle Williams, CJ, EJ, Chandler. It certainly doesn't mean they'll be the best players; just that if that attitude is something of vital importance to the team, you may see more kids with that background get drafted. Edited December 8, 2013 by thebandit27
Thirty Year Fan Posted December 8, 2013 Posted December 8, 2013 Let me start off by saying this doesn't mean Manuel will ever be as good as Wilson, but let's settle down a bit. Wilson: http://sports.yahoo..../?season=2012_2 43 of 75 (57.3%), 434 yards (144.7 yards/ game), 5.79 ypa, 4 tds to 1 INT, 1 fumble lost, Seattle averages 19 points/ game. Also in his 4th start, Wilson threw 0 tds and 3 ints. Manuel: http://sports.yahoo..../players/26639/ 64 of 108 (59.3%), 689 yards (229.7 yards/ game), 6.4 ypa, 4 tds to 1 ints, 1 fumble lost. 21.7 points 1) Both had 4td to 1 int ratio. IMO, this is one of the most important stats for a QB. You can win a lot of games with that ratio. 2) Seattle might have the best defense in the NFL. They carried that team while Wilson learned on the job. With their injuries, the Bills have struggled on D. Manuel has been asked to do much more. 3) 2 weeks of missing your 1st training camp is huge. Wilson had a whole training camp. 4) Let's all take a deep breath and relax. Can't ,when we could have had him the third round , we moved up to take T J graham ouch!
San Jose Bills Fan Posted December 8, 2013 Posted December 8, 2013 Can't ,when we could have had him the third round , we moved up to take T J graham ouch! And the irony (and pain) is greater when you consider that Russell Wilson threw to TJ Graham at NC State and it's possible that the Bills overvalued TJ because Russell Wilson made him look better than he was.
Thirty Year Fan Posted December 8, 2013 Posted December 8, 2013 Am a former Buffalonian who lives in the Pacific Northwest. I watch Russell Wilson weekly and read about him daily. My observations: he lives the game, is extraordinarily prepared, sneaky fast, has a rifle of an arm, computer-like accuracy, senses pressure like a barometer, and escapes tackles like Houdini. "Not sold on (Russell) Wilson"? Hmm, you, sir, are a very tough sell indeed! Great Post!
MDH Posted December 8, 2013 Posted December 8, 2013 (edited) He had a good game against the Jets........but come to find out that all QB's have been having good games against the Jets. By comparison, EJ's day was modest. The Atlanta game he played poorly for 59 minutes. He threw a short pass off the mark by 10 feet that should have been a game-changing walk-in pic 6 and threw another pass off the mark to TJ Graham by about 10 feet that thumped off the cb after Graham alertly got over to defend it. The one long pass he completed to a wide-open Robert Woods was very poorly targeted and Woods ended up getting a helmet to the chin for catching it. Manuel was bad throwing the football until the very end when he strung together 3 completions in the clutch. It's easy to only point to his bad throws and say he played poorly. He didn't play poorly overall, he was up and down. He had good moments and he had his clunkers. I'm not sure what QBs everybody on this board is watching. You can't watch ANY QB in the league critically without being able to point out a handful (or more) of throws which are just bad. I've watched Brady lots the past few years and every single game he has multiple throws where I'm saying, "what was that?" It happens tot he best of them. Edited December 8, 2013 by MDH
BADOLBILZ Posted December 8, 2013 Posted December 8, 2013 He didn't have a great game, but you're of the mark on the Woods throw. That was a timing throw underneath the safety and was placed correctly. He does need to play better than that though. He threw Woods into the safety. The ball was supposed to arrive where Woods was running near the sideline and instead Woods had to come back toward the middle of the field causing a high impact collision. Ball was late too.
BADOLBILZ Posted December 8, 2013 Posted December 8, 2013 (edited) It's easy to only point to his bad throws and say he played poorly. He didn't play poorly overall, he was up and down. He had good moments and he had his clunkers. I'm not sure what QBs everybody on this board is watching. You can't watch ANY QB in the league critically without being able to point out a handful (or more) of throws which are just bad. I've watched Brady lots the past few years and every single game he has multiple throws where I'm saying, "what was that?" It happens tot he best of them. I'd say his unintentionally inaccurate throws are excessive. To his credit he is not letting one bad throw carry over to the next play, which is important. Most young players allow bad plays to snowball into more bad plays. Hackett deserves some credit for that too, he has coddled him. The concern is whether the accuracy issue is correctable. It has to be a concern that he played as much as he did in college and is still so raw fundamentally. Your example of Brady is not one I would use. He has had so many days where you were lucky to see one bad throw as an opponent that it's not funny. Every QB misses throws but it's not uncommon for Manuel to have 50% bad throws in a game. A bad throw can be woefully off the mark or it can be well behind a receiver but catchable, etc. That isn't going to get it done at the NFL level. A good mental makeup does not guarantee accuracy will improve, we saw that with Fitz. EJ has all the tools to be good but he hasn't been so until he is the jury is out. Edited December 8, 2013 by BADOLBEELZ
BADOLBILZ Posted December 8, 2013 Posted December 8, 2013 (edited) Ah yes. Badol trots this out every month, trying to get personal, and not attempting to stay on topic. No matters how times you wrongly state it, I'm still 100% right. PRE-BRADY, Belichick has a worse coaching record than Dick Jauron. Shockingly, when he got a top 3 QB of all time, he became a great coach. I think the point is that you don't really have an objective mind regarding the Bills. You fish for a statistic to support your stance and then refuse to admit you are wrong even as the data stacks up against you. Case in point, your opinion that Dick Jauron is a great head coach. I think you may be the one in a million Bills fans who believes that Dick Jauron was a great coach who just didn't have a good QB. Edited December 8, 2013 by BADOLBEELZ
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