[closed]Why I'm Stubborn to Blame "Playcalling"

[The Big Cat]

The thing with play calling is you gotta adjust. That's something you can't teach. How many weeks has CJ gotten -2 yards on the option to the left? All three now? Probably 50 plays?

 

It might be time to stop running that play.

 

50 plays? he has 43 attempts on the season, bruh.

 

This kind of hyperbole yanks any and all credibility from otherwise reasonable arguments.

 

Someone with All-22 please verify precisely how many times we ran the "exact same play." This allegation is (likely) false, and getting old.

[thebandit27]

 

And not Andrew--kissed by Christ himself--Luck. We have a rookie QB whose size and intangibles are universally admired, but whose skills and abilities are questionable enough that not since Rex Grossman in 2002 has the first quarterback in a draft come off the board after so many picks.

 

 

I realize that this is totally tangential to the point of the post...Rex Grossman was the 4th QB picked in the 2003 draft after Carson Palmer (1), Byron Leftwich (7), & Kyle Boller (19). The 2002 draft featured two QBs picked in the top 3 in David Carr and Joey Harrington. EJ was the latest first-QB-off-the-board since Chad Pennington in 2001, who went 18th to the Jets.

[The Big Cat]

I realize that this is totally tangential to the point of the post...Rex Grossman was the 4th QB picked in the 2003 draft after Carson Palmer (1), Byron Leftwich (7), & Kyle Boller (19). The 2002 draft featured two QBs picked in the top 3 in David Carr and Joey Harrington. EJ was the latest first-QB-off-the-board since Chad Pennington in 2001, who went 18th to the Jets.

 

You're right, completely misread it. But Chad Penning was drafted in 2000.

 

Either way, fixed it.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

@original post:

 

1) I agree that we need to be patient with Hacket who is a rookie himself.

 

2) I don't think execution was the primary problem on Sunday. Hackett called a stinker of a game. Totally outcoached. The plays were all predictable, one-dimensional, and way too limited. I don't think you can blame execution, when you don't put your players in a better position to execute. This is as simple as calling more passes on 1st downs and more runs on 3rd downs. By Hackett's predictable Jauronish playcalling, we put EJ and the other players in a difficult spot to execute. A great way to get sacked 8 times is to get in 3rd and long all day.

[Bangarang]

I can understand being young and inexperienced. I don't want Hackett fired just yet either.

 

What I cannot stand is how unprepared Hackett and the rest of this offense looks. He has been playing to the strengths of the defenses.

 

I'm prepared to put up with some growing pains as long as they come from creativity and trying out different things.

 

What I will have no patience for is watching this offense run the exact same 5 or 6 plays every week knowing that they haven't been very effective.

 

It's too conservative. Almost as if Hackett is too scared to let EJ make a mistake. I'd rather see EJ throw it downfield and make mistakes or Hackett get creative and see what works and what doesn't.

 

There's no growth to be achieved in playing timid and going 3 and out in less than 2 minutes each possession.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Bangarang

[Orton's Arm]

Until we know the playbook is no longer "limited," how can we say the coaches trust their players (rookie QB, turnstyle LG, rookie WR, TJ) are ready?

 

It's been three weeks. If--in ten weeks--we still haven't seen any of these things, it'll be time to raise an eyebrow.

 

Of course, now the team is in a lose-lose. If they come out and carve the Ravens to ribbons using these kinds of plays, the line will be: they were too idiotic to do this against New York!?

 

There is nothing about the playcalling which suggests creativity, adaptability, or even a basic understanding of how to use Spiller. There is no evidence to suggest Hackett is a competent offensive coordinator; and plenty to indicate he's in over his head. The time to raise an eyebrow has come.

[mjt328]

I don't understand why so many people are determined to "assign" blame every game... "It wasn't EJ's fault, it was Justin Rogers letting up big passes!"

Listen...both players sucked bad on Sunday and contributed HEAVILY towards one of the worst performances I've ever seen out of this team.

 

 

With that said, Hackett has been absolutely terrible his first 3 games.

 

- He's predictable. So far, it appears that the Bills offense only has about 5-10 plays in the book, and every one is telegraphed to the defense by the formation and personnel.

 

- He fails to take advantage of our player's strengths, particularly CJ Spiller (supposedly the cornerstone of our offense). Spiller needs space to make plays. As others stated, where are the screens? Where are the designed outside runs? How about spreading out the defense? Spiller is never going to have success running between the tackles in a bunched formation.

 

- He fails to hide our team's biggest weakness, particularly left guard. We have a massive hole on our line, yet a high percentage of runs are directly behind Colin Brown.

 

- He fails to adjust to what the opposition is throwing at him. If the defense is selling out to stop the run, try some play-action. If they are bringing heavy pressure, try some screen plays. If they are loading the box and blitzing up the middle, have the receivers run slants.

 

 

 

Execution is up to the players, but the coaches should be giving them the best chance to succeed. Hackett's play calling looks like a deer in the headlights. He's this year's version of Dave Wannstedt. Just running the same formations and plays over and over, and acting confused when it doesn't work.

[xsoldier54]

My thing is where are the screens, misdirections, rubs/picks off bunch sets that would free up players just by design?

 

We were among the best screen teams in the NFL last year...WR screens, RB screens, Middle screens...where are they? Our backs are phenomenal screen backs...

 

We have a mobile QB but rarely use it to our advantage...where are the misdirections or the waggles that send the run action and line one way and then drags a TE or FB back across the formation usually leaving them wide open especially with aggressive, over pursuing teams...

 

No picks or rubs that would especially be effective against teams jamming WRs at the line as you can force the DB covering a WR to fight through four defenders to get to his man, or if they switch, likely cause confusion at some point when one of the 3 DBs makes a mental mistake...

 

This is basic stuff that I saw no evidence of us doing and was very disappointed since this would be the perfect team to do this against...

I read an article that talks about the offense that I found quite helpful. Here is the link. http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2013/9/24/4766678/bills-read-option-ej-manuel-cj-spiller-nathaniel-hackett. Basically the conclusion is that the offense is sound, but both C.J. and E.J.'s reads were not that great. Also some poor O-Line play contributed to poor results, but concludes that the offensive philosophy is sound, but players need to execute better.

[FireChan]

50 plays? he has 43 attempts on the season, bruh.

 

This kind of hyperbole yanks any and all credibility from otherwise reasonable arguments.

 

Someone with All-22 please verify precisely how many times we ran the "exact same play." This allegation is (likely) false, and getting old.

 

I said "probably" and I don't have exact numbers. I saw the games with my eyes, however. I wouldn't run that play more than twice next game.

[thebandit27]

You're right, completely misread it. But Chad Penning was drafted in 2000.

 

Either way, fixed it.

 

Ah crud...typo...thanks for catching.

[The Big Cat]

I said "probably" and I don't have exact numbers. I saw the games with my eyes, however. I wouldn't run that play more than twice next game.

 

If you don't have the exact numbers, then don't make up some wildly inaccurate hyperbole that helps make your (thusly) misinformed proclamation.

 

Also, see below:

 

A

I read an article that talks about the offense that I found quite helpful. Here is the link. http://www.buffaloru...thaniel-hackett. Basically the conclusion is that the offense is sound, but both C.J. and E.J.'s reads were not that great. Also some poor O-Line play contributed to poor results, but concludes that the offensive philosophy is sound, but players need to execute better.

 

So the play we ran "over and over" was the read option. Of course. Thank you for completely validating me. Because if it's the "playcalling" then in this case that's like three "playcalls" in one. The fact that our rookie QB ran it poorly, the fact that CJ's vision is lousy (we've known this since 2010) means the "playcalling" is not to blame.

 

Chalk one up for ole Big Cat.

[ko12010]

I don't like the bs in giving an OC a pass because he is a rookie. Athletes progress, they age, and they mature. Hiring somebody to run your offense who is not yet prepared for the job is a lot different than a 22 year old out of college.

 

I will curb my judgement until later, but Marrone will sink or swim on this hire. Right now it doesn't look good.

 

I think we will be yet another franchise that looks back and wishes we kept Chan around. Last years offensive scheming with this years defense would be 2-1 if not 3-0.

 

Nobody can watch these last 3 games and difinitively say we have upgraded the coaching staff as a whole. Marrone seems to be decent at overseeing things, but this offense is destroying this team.

I don't understand how people can just mix and match coaching staffs and say "if we had him at HC, him at OC, and him at DC then we'd be 3-0." That's not how coaching hires work. This is a COMPLETELY different staff than Chan's. What were we going to do--fire Chan as HC but make him OC? Then hire Marrone and tell him "we already have your OC, now hire a DC" ? What is wrong with you people? This is like Madden-style thinking but with coaches, not players. Does anyone think Chan would've accepted a demotion? Hell no. No coach would do that, especially when a whole new staff is coming in. Does anyone think Marrone would've wanted to come somewhere where his OC was already chosen for him? Does anyone think Chan would've been able to get Pettine as DC? Jesus people, use your frickin heads

[FireChan]

If you don't have the exact numbers, then don't make up some wildly inaccurate hyperbole that helps make your (thusly) misinformed proclamation.

 

Also, see below:

 

A

 

So the play we ran "over and over" was the read option. Of course. Thank you for completely validating me. Because if it's the "playcalling" then in this case that's like three "playcalls" in one. The fact that our rookie QB ran it poorly, the fact that CJ's vision is lousy (we've known this since 2010) means the "playcalling" is not to blame.

 

Chalk one up for ole Big Cat.

 

Hey, I don't disagree with you that CJ is playing awful. I do disagree with continuing to run the option with CJ when he's playing awful. I consider that "playcalling." They may have figured it out by the Jets game, or it might have just been Spill's injury that kept him out.

 

EJ isn't an option QB, wasn't one in college. He missed half of camp, and we're trying to teach him how to be an option QB as well as an NFL QB at the same time, while playing NFL teams that scheme for the option now? Is that play-calling? I guess not, but it's "scheming".

 

Ask RG3 how the read-option is working out? His coach and owner don't even want to run it anymore because it's too much of a risk. Or Kaepernick? While they beat the Packers, they've gotten rocked twice and he's looking awful.

Edited September 24, 2013 by FireChan

[billsfan714]

Anyone supporting this team after a 13 year playoff drought and 10 losing seasons, is not bandwagon. They're sadistic glutons for punishment. To people who say we cant expect much this year, I ask what can we reasonably expect, as in a won-loss record next year?

[The Big Cat]

Hey, I don't disagree with you that CJ is playing awful. I do disagree with continuing to run the option with CJ when he's playing awful. I consider that "playcalling." They may have figured it out by the Jets game, or it might have just been Spill's injury that kept him out.

 

EJ isn't an option QB, wasn't one in college. He missed half of camp, and we're trying to teach him how to be an option QB as well as an NFL QB at the same time, while playing NFL teams that scheme for the option now? Is that play-calling? I guess not, but it's "scheming".

 

Ask RG3 how the read-option is working out? His coach and owner don't even want to run it anymore because it's too much of a risk. Or Kaepernick? While they beat the Packers, they've gotten rocked twice and he's looking awful.

 

But the read option isn't a play call. It's not a call to Spiller. It's on EJ to read correctly and react.

 

At some point he's going to have to learn to do things they ask him to do.

 

Ask Russell Wilson how it's working: just fine.

 

And when EJ did run it right a few times, it did work.

 

It's a play designed to do exactly what so many here are SCREAMING for Hackett to do: get CJ the ball in space. At some point, EJ has to make the defense respect him.

[8-8 Forever?]

Enough blame to get passed around, but I got a little tired of watching running playes right into the loaded box. I was hoping to see a change of plan and see the spread like Chan ran last year.

Everyone misses Chan's offense. We miss nothing else about Chan,but the guy is an offensive expert. We made a tradeoff, blew it all up , cut just about everyone but got a better D coordinator and probably a better HC, but between new guys Hackett, EJ, Woods etc, plus the loss of Chandler until probably mid season we sacrificed the Chan offensive originality and unpredictability. Can't have it all. They're all new guys working it out right now without a half a dozen starters . At least not right away. When you blow up an entire organization, you take a step backwards for a while. The choice was made and the stupid fans ate it up. Now it reckoning time and those same fans can't handle the rebuild process. This one is on the fans. This is what happens when you blow everything up and start over with a rookie QB. Andy Reid isn't starting over with a rookie QB.

Edited September 24, 2013 by 8and8Forever

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

I read an article that talks about the offense that I found quite helpful. Here is the link. http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2013/9/24/4766678/bills-read-option-ej-manuel-cj-spiller-nathaniel-hackett. Basically the conclusion is that the offense is sound, but both C.J. and E.J.'s reads were not that great. Also some poor O-Line play contributed to poor results, but concludes that the offensive philosophy is sound, but players need to execute better.

 

Could have fooled me that we were running the read-option.

[FireChan]

But the read option isn't a play call. It's not a call to Spiller. It's on EJ to read correctly and react.

 

At some point he's going to have to learn to do things they ask him to do.

 

Ask Russell Wilson how it's working: just fine.

 

And when EJ did run it right a few times, it did work.

 

It's a play designed to do exactly what so many here are SCREAMING for Hackett to do: get CJ the ball in space. At some point, EJ has to make the defense respect him.

 

I see what you're saying. I do get it. But really, if EJ isn't able to do it during a game(because obviously, he's struggling to do it), should they just keep running it? Or run something else? Maybe he needs to keep doing it for the experience, and the practice. That's hard to judge.

[The Big Cat]

I see what you're saying. I do get it. But really, if EJ isn't able to do it during a game(because obviously, he's struggling to do it), should they just keep running it? Or run something else? Maybe he needs to keep doing it for the experience, and the practice. That's hard to judge.

 

They got away from that gameplan a lot faster than you're giving them credit for.

[mjt328]

 

I don't understand how people can just mix and match coaching staffs and say "if we had him at HC, him at OC, and him at DC then we'd be 3-0." That's not how coaching hires work. This is a COMPLETELY different staff than Chan's. What were we going to do--fire Chan as HC but make him OC? Then hire Marrone and tell him "we already have your OC, now hire a DC" ? What is wrong with you people? This is like Madden-style thinking but with coaches, not players. Does anyone think Chan would've accepted a demotion? Hell no. No coach would do that, especially when a whole new staff is coming in. Does anyone think Marrone would've wanted to come somewhere where his OC was already chosen for him? Does anyone think Chan would've been able to get Pettine as DC? Jesus people, use your frickin heads

 

Sure, it's just wishful thinking.

 

People are frustrated because whenever we take a step up somewhere (hiring Pettine at DC, drafting Alonso), we take a step back somewhere else (Hackett at OC, losing Levitre to free agency).

 

We've been spinning our wheels for 13 years, and it sucks.