OCinBuffalo Posted September 23, 2013 Author Posted September 23, 2013 Nope. A good pass rush can bail out an average secondary. All WR's are covered for the first couple seconds unless it's a blown coverage. When a QB can set and throw on rhythm there is no defense for a perfect throw. Perfect throws happen much less frequently when the rush beats their man and gets to the QB. Coverage sacks happen, but by definition your rush didn't get it done on those. Bruce Smith didn't get in the hall of fame because of Nate Odomes. Same question: who gave up the 3rd and 17 on the first jets drive of the game? The D line? The LBs? Or the secondary? Last game: how many 3rd and longs were converted becaue we can't cover for 3 seconds?
Boatdrinks Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 So, you've learned nothing from yesterday? Ok, let me ask you this: did we have a problem with our D line yesterday? Did it look bad? How about our LBs? How'd Kiko play? On the first drive of the game for the Jets, who gave up the 1st down on 3rd and 17? The D line, the Lbs(many of whom were off the field), or the secondary? D line was bad. Secondary problems were magnified by this. You'd like to think you can force a dump off or get a sack on 3rd and 17. Make a tackle, then get off the field. Secondary was bad with the injuries, but G Smith had plenty of time to exploit those matchups. Kiko was pretty good, good recognition that WR would run a slant on the combination route INT. Not a rookie play there. Lawson was good, Hughes was terrible. Getting manhandled so badly that a no name got 100plus yards was inexcusably bad.
OCinBuffalo Posted September 23, 2013 Author Posted September 23, 2013 D line was bad. Secondary problems were magnified by this. You'd like to think you can force a dump off or get a sack on 3rd and 17. Make a tackle, then get off the field. Secondary was bad with the injuries, but G Smith had plenty of time to exploit those matchups. Kiko was pretty good, good recognition that WR would run a slant on the combination route INT. Not a rookie play there. Lawson was good, Hughes was terrible. Getting manhandled so badly that a no name got 100plus yards was inexcusably bad. In the 4th quarter, we forced Geno off the field over and over. Was that due to the secondary, or the D line? Pretty sure he didn't have much time to do much of anything. And, throwing the ball up after 2 seconds, is not "having all sorts of time". That's heaving and praying. But, not really, since Geno had a 80% chance of either getting a big play or a PI. I don't know how you can put any of that on the D line.
djp14150 Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 Just to enlighten you the pass rush can only happen when the WRs are covered. One takes care of the other. a pass rush helps the CBs much more than than the CBs helping the pass rush....that is whats called a coverage sack which isnt used too much. In the 4th quarter, we forced Geno off the field over and over. Was that due to the secondary, or the D line? Pretty sure he didn't have much time to do much of anything. And, throwing the ball up after 2 seconds, is not "having all sorts of time". That's heaving and praying. But, not really, since Geno had a 80% chance of either getting a big play or a PI. I don't know how you can put any of that on the D line. Its called max protection and 2 go deep...throw and hope for a completion, PI, or incomplete. A pick is the same as a punt.
thewildrabbit Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 Who was the Bills coach that said "You can NEVER have too many CB's"? Dick Jauron... who is probably still having nightmares about Brady to Randy Moss over and over every night. Even tho that situation could have been helped with a decent pass rush. Dickless idea of a pass rusher was Maybin. This team is paper thin at every position on the team, and that secondary should be fine once McKelvin, Byrd, Gilmore are healthy again. Whats more concerning to me is why Geno had so much time to throw vs why EJ had so little time to throw. Not to mention the lack of holes for Spiller. Also at this point I'm more concerned about the LG position and why they let Rinehart walk when they knew they weren't going to keep Levitre.
JPS Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 Next year Round 1: CB, Round two : G, Rnd 3: free saftey, Rnd 4: Outside LB, Rnd 5: OL, Rnd 6: DB, Rnd 7: DB, Somehow sign a free agent TE with all star level skills....., not a mediocre blocking TE that can't run..... Not reactionary at all. And it's early. I hate "I told you so" threads.
Boatdrinks Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 In the 4th quarter, we forced Geno off the field over and over. Was that due to the secondary, or the D line? Pretty sure he didn't have much time to do much of anything. And, throwing the ball up after 2 seconds, is not "having all sorts of time". That's heaving and praying. But, not really, since Geno had a 80% chance of either getting a big play or a PI. I don't know how you can put any of that on the D line. Not sure what your point is here. The D line was generally bad, got little pass rush, had no sacks, Geno had time in the pocket. The secondary was awful, Rogers is not a starting caliber DB. Not many teams have stars at their 5th CB spot, however. We can't lament injuries too much. I didn't count, but I saw very few plays where our DL and LB's beat the Jet's OL. Why debate if we would have won this game if we were healthy in the secondary? The guys on the field got beat and no DL's "raised their game" making big plays to cover for it.
peterpan Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 Honestly, McKelvin has been a liability to this defense outside of the first two games of this year. And you know what? Even after drafting unlimited amounts of DBs, particularaly in high rounds, we still have a depleted secondary. Its some what contradictory to say you need to draft DBs high if you want a good defense, and then use the Bills defense as an example.
The Big Cat Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 Honestly, McKelvin has been a liability to this defense outside of the first two games of this year.
K-9 Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 (edited) D line was bad. Secondary problems were magnified by this. You'd like to think you can force a dump off or get a sack on 3rd and 17. Make a tackle, then get off the field. Secondary was bad with the injuries, but G Smith had plenty of time to exploit those matchups. Kiko was pretty good, good recognition that WR would run a slant on the combination route INT. Not a rookie play there. Lawson was good, Hughes was terrible. Getting manhandled so badly that a no name got 100plus yards was inexcusably bad. Did you notice the tightly bunched (read tightly gapped) max protection schemes employed by the Jest? That is hard to penetrate but it means less receivers going against more DBs. Numbers wise, your DBs should be able to defend it. Ours were not up to the task, obviously and it's doubly difficult when you can't FORCE a team to use the middle of the field because your corners are so exposed. We gifted the Jest with 14 points DIRECTLY because of atrocious CB play on the edges. It was just too easy. GO BILLS!!! Edited September 23, 2013 by K-9
Boatdrinks Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 Did you notice the tightly bunched (read tightly gapped) max protection schemes employed by the Jest? That is hard to penetrate but it means less receivers going against more DBs. Numbers wise, a your DBs should be able to defend it. Ours were not up to the task, obviously and it's doubly difficult when you can't FORCE a team to use the middle of he field because your corners are so exposed. We gifted the Jest with 14 points DIRECTLY because of atrocious CB play on the edges. It was just too easy. GO BILLS!!! Were those TD's in max protect? I'd have to look at it. No one is defending the Bills CB play. They were decimated there and it showed. But if you are beat up there, maybe you've got to expect your elite rusher to get the QB on the ground. The Jets sure seemed to whip our protection scheme all day long. Many times with just 4 rushers. Their starting corners are much better than ours, but we couldn't protect at all. Yes, the last TD was too easy as Rogers never looked back at the ball.
dave mcbride Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 Is this even a fair question? It's not as if we're suffering from the difference between good CBs and mediocre CBs. They suffered from the difference between good CBs and guys who shouldn't be playing CB in the NFL even as backups. The Bills lost their top three CBs (Gilmore, McKelvin, and Brooks) as well as their top coverage safety. The replacements at CB were a solid safety (a converted failed CB) a terrible player (Rogers) and a UDFA rookie (Robey).
GG Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 Who was the Bills coach that said "You can NEVER have too many CB's"? Rex Ryan?
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 Actually it was Dick Jauron. It's one of the reasons we ran him out of town. Wade: hick accent, wouldn't wear headset. Greggo: Bullhorn, arrogant Mullarkey: Meathead, We picked on his kids Dickless: "It's hard to win in the NFL", drafted too many DBs, Skelator face. Chan: Said Spiller got winded, hick accent. Loved Fitz. Marrone: ???? PTR Wow there's been really good reasons. I always thought it was arbitrary angst over sucking too much.
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 Andy Reid would also say the same thing. He used to draft multiple DBs in the 1st and 2nd rounds almost every year with the eagles.
papazoid Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 I don't care what position you draft, you need to "hit" on it. having said that, I prefer to tie up the majority of my salary cap in the Front 7's on both sides of the ball.
K-9 Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 Were those TD's in max protect? I'd have to look at it. No one is defending the Bills CB play. They were decimated there and it showed. But if you are beat up there, maybe you've got to expect your elite rusher to get the QB on the ground. The Jets sure seemed to whip our protection scheme all day long. Many times with just 4 rushers. Their starting corners are much better than ours, but we couldn't protect at all. Yes, the last TD was too easy as Rogers never looked back at the ball. The Jest coaches did a good job of reviewing the Panthers tape from what I saw. They were in max protect on the TD to Holmes and I'm pretty sure on the other as well. I haven't reviewed that one yet. But it seemed on any long pattern, they kept 7 or 8 in to block. And those gaps were very tight as well. Just very hard to get to the QB against those schemes more often than not. GO BILLS!!!
KOKBILLS Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 (edited) I guess I'm going to question what can't be questioned. I don't believe that not drafting a 5th round CB for depth is "coming back and biting this team big-time". I'm not sure this rookie depth CB would have been the difference. Point taken...But considering a 5-7 undrafted free agent looks better at times than Rogers, who was only a 7th round pick himself, it's hard for me to believe there was no help in the middle rounds at CB either...And I spoke about the Bills picks from the 3rd to the 5th round...Not just the 5th round... Not to mention our 4th and 5th Round Safeties are sitting on the sidelines watching a 5' 8" street UFA start ahead of them...That's not to say Leonard is not a good player, and a nice Roster addition...But I think it furthers the point that two mid round Safeties was one too many... We could have used one of those picks on a project CB...And it's VERY hard to imagine that project CB could be worse than Rogers... Edited September 24, 2013 by KOKBILLS
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