OCinBuffalo Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 Well, I should think that yesterday was quite embarrassing for some posters. The notion that drafting CBs is a waste of resources? Easily blown away by one rhetorical question: Never mind Gilmore/Byrd, how many of you wish McKelvin was on the field the whole game yesterday? Yes, the answer is: ALL of you. That's the difference between a first round CB, and everybody else. Yes, that's right: McKelvin, the "bust", the "wasted pick"...yet we lose the game, because he's not there? And, ALL of you wish he was? How does this make any sense at all? Where's the logic here? How does any of this square the with the conventional "wisdom" that not only was taking McKelvin a bad idea, but, that taking ANY DB in the first 2 rounds is a bad idea? Easy: while it may be conventional, it is not wisdom. Not in today's game. Wisdom = experience + knowledge. We had an awful experience yesterday, didn't we? A learning experience perhaps? Consider: One terrible sack given up by Colin Brown( along with 7 others for the whole line, and, how many of those do you put on the O line?) not being elite, but mediocre... vs... 2 easy TDs and all sorts of completions and PI penalties because Justin Rogers and Nickel Robey(and make no mistake, that could have been anybody else on this team, but McKelvin and Gilmore) are mediocre as well? Which has a bigger impact on the game? Answer: We WIN the game if we get better DB play. The Jets won the game with excellent DB play. I don't know how you can come away from yesterday's game, and maintain the opinion that drafting DBs high is always a bad idea. And, don't fret, I've already accounted for Jimmy Leonard's nice play. The answer there is: Ok, so we saved one awful TD(because we were beat there as well). Whom do we see about the other 2?
Mike in Syracuse Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 Who was the Bills coach that said "You can NEVER have too many CB's"?
K-9 Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 Who was the Bills coach that said "You can NEVER have too many CB's"? I'm pretty sure all of them have said that since the hash marks were moved inside and/or when blockers were allowed to extend their arms. GO BILLS!!!
KOKBILLS Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 I was as surprised as anyone that the Bills neglected the CB position in the 2013 Draft...I was even more surprised that the did so while drafting two mid round Safeties... But the Bills had SO many needs going into this Draft, and lets not forget Gilmore was 100% healthy...I don't mind that they did not take a CB high... I have no problem with the Bills first 3 picks in the 2013 Draft...But I do question what they did after that...Goodwin, while electric, is a project at WR...And what he does best, KR, is almost non-existent in today's NFL...Then they take the two Safeties even though they know Aaron Williams (a former 2nd Round Pick) is moving to Safety, and that Byrd is coming back for at least one more year...I don't mind that they took a Safety, but two??? I think it's easy to look back now and say those picks may have been better spent at CB...But who knows what their board was like...Obviously they graded Goodwin, Williams, and Meeks higher than the CB's available...But not adding some depth at CB through the Draft is coming back and biting them big-time...I don't think that can be questioned...
Meatloaf Sandwich Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 Who was the Bills coach that said "You can NEVER have too many CB's"? That was Nix that said it.
Boatdrinks Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 Yes, any teams 5th CB is probably a liability out there. Combine it with a lack of pass rush and you get yesterdays game. Most folks hate drafting a DB high because we've not had difference makers on the DL or OL for years and they make a bigger impact on the game. It is much harder to find big guys that can move than smaller guys so the 1st round is usually where you must get that stud DT, DE, or OL. No way we win that game yesterday with even our best CB's if Geno has all day back there like he did. Any NFL QB will find an open WR if given time with today's passing rules. You want your best CB's out there, but if you don't pressure and lose the LOS, you will still get beat. All the good GM's say you build from the inside out meaning the lines. No one would have a problem with a first round DB if you've got elite players in the trenches.
Meatloaf Sandwich Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 Yes, any teams 5th CB is probably a liability out there. Combine it with a lack of pass rush and you get yesterdays game. Most folks hate drafting a DB high because we've not had difference makers on the DL or OL for years and they make a bigger impact on the game. It is much harder to find big guys that can move than smaller guys so the 1st round is usually where you must get that stud DT, DE, or OL. No way we win that game yesterday with even our best CB's if Geno has all day back there like he did. Any NFL QB will find an open WR if given time with today's passing rules. You want your best CB's out there, but if you don't pressure and lose the LOS, you will still get beat. All the good GM's say you build from the inside out meaning the lines. No one would have a problem with a first round DB if you've got elite players in the trenches. Just to enlighten you the pass rush can only happen when the WRs are covered. One takes care of the other.
Dr. Fong Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 When was the last time people talked about how dominant a team's secondary is and how it really bails out their soft front 7? Never? Yeah me neither. You build from the front.
OCinBuffalo Posted September 23, 2013 Author Posted September 23, 2013 (edited) Yes, any teams 5th CB is probably a liability out there. Combine it with a lack of pass rush and you get yesterdays game. Most folks hate drafting a DB high because we've not had difference makers on the DL or OL for years and they make a bigger impact on the game. It is much harder to find big guys that can move than smaller guys so the 1st round is usually where you must get that stud DT, DE, or OL. No way we win that game yesterday with even our best CB's if Geno has all day back there like he did. Any NFL QB will find an open WR if given time with today's passing rules. You want your best CB's out there, but if you don't pressure and lose the LOS, you will still get beat. All the good GM's say you build from the inside out meaning the lines. No one would have a problem with a first round DB if you've got elite players in the trenches. How many lame TDs were scored on us due to O line play? How many TDs where the Jets said: "just throw it up before the pass rush gets here, because either we will get the catch(because they can't cover) or, we will get the PI(because they can't cover)". The pass rush was made irrelevant. We can't stop them on 3rd and 17? What does that have to do with a pass rush, when we have dropped 8 men into "coverage"? Nothing. Geno threw prayer after prayer down the field, and lucked his way into 2 awful TDS. If we have merely competent DBs back we win. The Jets had comptent DBs, and that, along with their defensive game plan, is why they won. The pass rush is the ONLY thing that stopped that game from getting out of hand. Consider the last 4 jets drives: the D line stopped them, not the secondary. Lay it down. We are in trouble because we didn't have any CB depth on this team. You think Brooks makes a difference? I don't know. And, not knowing is a problem, especially when, under normal circumstances, Brooks will be on the field for over 50% of the plays. Edited September 23, 2013 by OCinBuffalo
PromoTheRobot Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 That was Nix that said it. Actually it was Dick Jauron. It's one of the reasons we ran him out of town. Wade: hick accent, wouldn't wear headset. Greggo: Bullhorn, arrogant Mullarkey: Meathead, We picked on his kids Dickless: "It's hard to win in the NFL", drafted too many DBs, Skelator face. Chan: Said Spiller got winded, hick accent. Loved Fitz. Marrone: ???? PTR
OCinBuffalo Posted September 23, 2013 Author Posted September 23, 2013 When was the last time people talked about how dominant a team's secondary is and how it really bails out their soft front 7? Never? Yeah me neither. You build from the front. So, you've learned nothing from yesterday? Ok, let me ask you this: did we have a problem with our D line yesterday? Did it look bad? How about our LBs? How'd Kiko play? On the first drive of the game for the Jets, who gave up the 1st down on 3rd and 17? The D line, the Lbs(many of whom were off the field), or the secondary?
K D Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 on all of the coverage I've seen about the game, nobody has mentioned how we are playing our 3rd and 4th string DB's. I think we will be ok once everyone is healthy and these backups are only gaining valuable experience that will help for when they play them in nickel packages. I was never a fan of mckelvin but man these backups make him look like an all-pro!
Meatloaf Sandwich Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 Actually it was Dick Jauron. It's one of the reasons we ran him out of town. Wade: hick accent, wouldn't wear headset. Greggo: Bullhorn, arrogant Mullarkey: Meathead, We picked on his kids Dickless: "It's hard to win in the NFL", drafted too many DBs, Skelator face. Chan: Said Spiller got winded, hick accent. Loved Fitz. Marrone: ???? PTR Buddy Nix also said it after we drafted Gilmore. When was the last time people talked about how dominant a team's secondary is and how it really bails out their soft front 7? Never? Yeah me neither. You build from the front. Actually just last week with Seahawks. They were talking about the pressure they can get up front b.c of the coverage in the secondary.
BuffaloBillsMagic1 Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 Next year Round 1: CB, Round two : G, Rnd 3: free saftey, Rnd 4: Outside LB, Rnd 5: OL, Rnd 6: DB, Rnd 7: DB, Somehow sign a free agent TE with all star level skills....., not a mediocre blocking TE that can't run.....
bobobonators Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 Well, I should think that yesterday was quite embarrassing for some posters. The notion that drafting CBs is a waste of resources? Easily blown away by one rhetorical question: Never mind Gilmore/Byrd, how many of you wish McKelvin was on the field the whole game yesterday? Yes, the answer is: ALL of you. That's the difference between a first round CB, and everybody else. Yes, that's right: McKelvin, the "bust", the "wasted pick"...yet we lose the game, because he's not there? And, ALL of you wish he was? How does this make any sense at all? Where's the logic here? How does any of this square the with the conventional "wisdom" that not only was taking McKelvin a bad idea, but, that taking ANY DB in the first 2 rounds is a bad idea? Easy: while it may be conventional, it is not wisdom. Not in today's game. Wisdom = experience + knowledge. We had an awful experience yesterday, didn't we? A learning experience perhaps? Consider: One terrible sack given up by Colin Brown( along with 7 others for the whole line, and, how many of those do you put on the O line?) not being elite, but mediocre... vs... 2 easy TDs and all sorts of completions and PI penalties because Justin Rogers and Nickel Robey(and make no mistake, that could have been anybody else on this team, but McKelvin and Gilmore) are mediocre as well? Which has a bigger impact on the game? Answer: We WIN the game if we get better DB play. The Jets won the game with excellent DB play. I don't know how you can come away from yesterday's game, and maintain the opinion that drafting DBs high is always a bad idea. And, don't fret, I've already accounted for Jimmy Leonard's nice play. The answer there is: Ok, so we saved one awful TD(because we were beat there as well). Whom do we see about the other 2? While i dont disagree with you completely, theres also something to be said about the lack of pass rush by our HIGHLY PAID dline that only exploited our crappy secondary even more. Genos bombs dont occur if mario is in his face or puts him on his arse. Look at what the panthers secondary did to the giants' high octane passing game yeaterday. Scrubs looked like pro bowlers bc eli was on his arse all game. The key is always in the dline. Sure, coverage sacks can happen but in todays nfl good luck relying on coverage sacks. Our pass rush is too inconsistent. That being said, the jets had a perfect game plan yeaterday and made a lot of quick passes to counter pass rush and then geno made some great deep throws. Kudos to them.
eme123 Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 Well, I should think that yesterday was quite embarrassing for some posters. The notion that drafting CBs is a waste of resources? Easily blown away by one rhetorical question: Never mind Gilmore/Byrd, how many of you wish McKelvin was on the field the whole game yesterday? Yes, the answer is: ALL of you. That's the difference between a first round CB, and everybody else. Yes, that's right: McKelvin, the "bust", the "wasted pick"...yet we lose the game, because he's not there? And, ALL of you wish he was? How does this make any sense at all? Where's the logic here? How does any of this square the with the conventional "wisdom" that not only was taking McKelvin a bad idea, but, that taking ANY DB in the first 2 rounds is a bad idea? Easy: while it may be conventional, it is not wisdom. Not in today's game. Wisdom = experience + knowledge. We had an awful experience yesterday, didn't we? A learning experience perhaps? Consider: One terrible sack given up by Colin Brown( along with 7 others for the whole line, and, how many of those do you put on the O line?) not being elite, but mediocre... vs... 2 easy TDs and all sorts of completions and PI penalties because Justin Rogers and Nickel Robey(and make no mistake, that could have been anybody else on this team, but McKelvin and Gilmore) are mediocre as well? Which has a bigger impact on the game? Answer: We WIN the game if we get better DB play. The Jets won the game with excellent DB play. I don't know how you can come away from yesterday's game, and maintain the opinion that drafting DBs high is always a bad idea. And, don't fret, I've already accounted for Jimmy Leonard's nice play. The answer there is: Ok, so we saved one awful TD(because we were beat there as well). Whom do we see about the other 2? +10 Not to mention late round CB/Safeties are instrumental on special teams. Drafting secondary in EVERY draft is must.
Boatdrinks Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 Just to enlighten you the pass rush can only happen when the WRs are covered. One takes care of the other. Nope. A good pass rush can bail out an average secondary. All WR's are covered for the first couple seconds unless it's a blown coverage. When a QB can set and throw on rhythm there is no defense for a perfect throw. Perfect throws happen much less frequently when the rush beats their man and gets to the QB. Coverage sacks happen, but by definition your rush didn't get it done on those. Bruce Smith didn't get in the hall of fame because of Nate Odomes.
OCinBuffalo Posted September 23, 2013 Author Posted September 23, 2013 While i dont disagree with you completely, theres also something to be said about the lack of pass rush by our HIGHLY PAID dline that only exploited our crappy secondary even more. Genos bombs dont occur if mario is in his face or puts him on his arse. Look at what the panthers secondary did to the giants' high octane passing game yeaterday. Scrubs looked like pro bowlers bc eli was on his arse all game. The key is always in the dline. Sure, coverage sacks can happen but in todays nfl good luck relying on coverage sacks. Our pass rush is too inconsistent. That being said, the jets had a perfect game plan yeaterday and made a lot of quick passes to counter pass rush and then geno made some great deep throws. Kudos to them. Reasonable. However, you've contradicted yourself, haven't you? You can't have a "perfect game plan" and "counter the pass rush with quick throws", and, blame the pass rush for being inconsistent, at the same time, can you? Nope. We simply need to realize that in this D scheme, we have to be able to count on EVERY single man who has a coverage responsibility, to cover his man for 3 seconds, and, to win the 50/50 ball battle at least 75% of the time. Think about it: their WR has to catch it, and stay in bounds. Our CB has it easier: he has to break it up, or force the man out. It's not easy to play CB, but, if you actually have the ability, it's easy to win on jump ball that you don't have to catch.
White Linen Posted September 23, 2013 Posted September 23, 2013 I was as surprised as anyone that the Bills neglected the CB position in the 2013 Draft...I was even more surprised that the did so while drafting two mid round Safeties... But the Bills had SO many needs going into this Draft, and lets not forget Gilmore was 100% healthy...I don't mind that they did not take a CB high... I have no problem with the Bills first 3 picks in the 2013 Draft...But I do question what they did after that...Goodwin, while electric, is a project at WR...And what he does best, KR, is almost non-existent in today's NFL...Then they take the two Safeties even though they know Aaron Williams (a former 2nd Round Pick) is moving to Safety, and that Byrd is coming back for at least one more year...I don't mind that they took a Safety, but two??? I think it's easy to look back now and say those picks may have been better spent at CB...But who knows what their board was like...Obviously they graded Goodwin, Williams, and Meeks higher than the CB's available...But not adding some depth at CB through the Draft is coming back and biting them big-time...I don't think that can be questioned... I guess I'm going to question what can't be questioned. I don't believe that not drafting a 5th round CB for depth is "coming back and biting this team big-time". I'm not sure this rookie depth CB would have been the difference.
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