Miyagi-Do Karate Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 That was not a complicated play by any stretch of the imagination. GO BILLS!!! It was complicated because there were 3 reads and a short time and distance to make the right one. In reality and this isn't to knock him, if Thad had run that play, he would have seen his first read covered, and then taken a sack (and probably have fumbled the ball). Tuel should have done the same thing (minus the fumble); 1st read covered = hold on to the ball. None of the QB's on the roster would have gone through the progressions to make the right throw to Stevie.
l< j Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 What's weird is that EJ himself has never run such a complicated play down near the goal line. It's always been fades, boots, one-option plays for EJ. But Hackett has a play where Tuel has 3 options, and is criticized because he didn't go to option No. 3 (with a defender about to sack him). Bad play call. No, he is being criticized because he went to the first option, even though there was a guy in a bright red jersey standing between him and the receiver. Maybe he doesn't have the experience to see Stevie. I get that. But that doesn't mean the only other option was to throw it to the covered receiver. kj
34-78-83 Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 It was complicated because there were 3 reads and a short time and distance to make the right one. In reality and this isn't to knock him, if Thad had run that play, he would have seen his first read covered, and then taken a sack (and probably have fumbled the ball). Tuel should have done the same thing (minus the fumble); 1st read covered = hold on to the ball. None of the QB's on the roster would have gone through the progressions to make the right throw to Stevie. I think that's a stretch but you're certainly entitled to the opinion.... I do believe there are a lot of Bills plays with Run / Pass option built in as I recall EJ talking about them while he was out there earlier this year.
Cash Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 It was complicated because there were 3 reads and a short time and distance to make the right one. In reality and this isn't to knock him, if Thad had run that play, he would have seen his first read covered, and then taken a sack (and probably have fumbled the ball). Tuel should have done the same thing (minus the fumble); 1st read covered = hold on to the ball. None of the QB's on the roster would have gone through the progressions to make the right throw to Stevie. Don't have time to scour the internet at present, but from what breakdowns of the Bills' offense I've read, EJ has absolutely had to make those same kind of reads, dating back to the preseason. I remember one preseason breakdown detailing a packaged play we ran 3-4 times with EJ where there were 4 or 5 different options, including both passes & runs.
K-9 Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 It was complicated because there were 3 reads and a short time and distance to make the right one. In reality and this isn't to knock him, if Thad had run that play, he would have seen his first read covered, and then taken a sack (and probably have fumbled the ball). Tuel should have done the same thing (minus the fumble); 1st read covered = hold on to the ball. None of the QB's on the roster would have gone through the progressions to make the right throw to Stevie. We'll just agree to disagree about what constitutes a "complicated" play. It was practiced during the week and they had success with it, according to Stevie. As to the bold text, I simply don't know how you can make that claim. It's unknowable until another QB is in that situation and I would doubt that Hackett calls the same play again, anyway. Bottom line is that that play was never designed to go to the slot. Ever. You can't throw to the slot out of that formation against that defensive alignment. GO BILLS!!!
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 Don't have time to scour the internet at present, but from what breakdowns of the Bills' offense I've read, EJ has absolutely had to make those same kind of reads, dating back to the preseason. I remember one preseason breakdown detailing a packaged play we ran 3-4 times with EJ where there were 4 or 5 different options, including both passes & runs. There wasn't enough time for anyone to make that read to Stevie. Tuel was getting hit when he was throwing to his first read.
l< j Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 There wasn't enough time for anyone to make that read to Stevie. Tuel was getting hit when he was throwing to his first read. The DL was 2 yards away when he released; see shot 5 in the Buffalo Rumblings breakdown linked above. Not being hit. More importantly, there was plenty of time to see that his receiver was not open. Throw it away. kj
26CornerBlitz Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 The DL was 2 yards away when he released; see shot 5 in the Buffalo Rumblings breakdown linked above. Not being hit. More importantly, there was plenty of time to see that his receiver was not open. Throw it away. kj Tuel definitely had time to let the play develop in order to consider other options.
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 The DL was 2 yards away when he released; see shot 5 in the Buffalo Rumblings breakdown linked above. Not being hit. More importantly, there was plenty of time to see that his receiver was not open. Throw it away. kj Tuel definitely had time to let the play develop in order to consider other options. Okay, I just re-watched it, and you guys are probably right. hehe. Looked like Tuel just stared down Graham, who, by the way, was open on that play. Had Smith gone with SJ, would have been a TD. Tuel just didn't see Smith, or saw him peripherally and figured Smith was going with Stevie--a perfectly reasonable assumption. The thing is, I can't really even fault Tuel for that throw. Graham was open; if he waits for Smith to vacate the area, it's too late to go to Graham. If he waits, then maybe the rusher gets to him or SJ isn't open. In a certain sense, Tuel trusted the defenders would do what they were supposed to do, and got screwed over by a broken play. The Chiefs just got lucky more than anything.
26CornerBlitz Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 JW: All-22 Review Week 9 - Bills/Chiefs: http://www.wgr550.com/JW--All-22-Review-Week-9---Bills-Chiefs/17694609 Until further review, it's the play of the year. You know the play. Jeremy White's All-22 Review takes a look at Sean Smith's 100 yard interception return for a TD, the play of newcomer Stefan Charles, and debuts KIKO-CAM. Sometimes it's just not fair.
eball Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 Okay, I just re-watched it, and you guys are probably right. hehe. Looked like Tuel just stared down Graham, who, by the way, was open on that play. Had Smith gone with SJ, would have been a TD. Tuel just didn't see Smith, or saw him peripherally and figured Smith was going with Stevie--a perfectly reasonable assumption. The thing is, I can't really even fault Tuel for that throw. Graham was open; if he waits for Smith to vacate the area, it's too late to go to Graham. If he waits, then maybe the rusher gets to him or SJ isn't open. In a certain sense, Tuel trusted the defenders would do what they were supposed to do, and got screwed over by a broken play. The Chiefs just got lucky more than anything. While I commend you for admitting your error, Tuel in no way "got screwed over by a broken play" -- he had time to survey the field and had he done so, rather than throwing a blind pass, he would have either thrown it away or found a wide open SJ. And yes, KC got somewhat lucky. It appears they are this year's Colts.
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 While I commend you for admitting your error, Tuel in no way "got screwed over by a broken play" -- he had time to survey the field and had he done so, rather than throwing a blind pass, he would have either thrown it away or found a wide open SJ. And yes, KC got somewhat lucky. It appears they are this year's Colts. I think the issue is as a QB, you're not supposed to be looking at the defender, but you need to sense the defender and make sure he's not going to be there. I am sure Tuel saw Smith peripherally, but assumed he was going to vacate the area. He can't make that assumption. Tuel needed to be safer with the ball there; if it's not wide open, then eat it.
fergie's ire Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 I think that the question is: Did the defender blow his coverage...or did he recognize that Tuel does not look off defenders...that he stares down his intended receiver, so that a defender can ignore his assignment and just go where Tuel is looking?
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 JW: All-22 Review Week 9 - Bills/Chiefs: http://www.wgr550.co...Chiefs/17694609 Until further review, it's the play of the year. You know the play. Jeremy White's All-22 Review takes a look at Sean Smith's 100 yard interception return for a TD, the play of newcomer Stefan Charles, and debuts KIKO-CAM. Sometimes it's just not fair. It makes me very depressed seeing the Tuel interception over and over again. It's got to make Tuel feel sick to his stomach. Another great analysis by JW; these articles are the highlight of the week.
goynahan Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 It makes me very depressed seeing the Tuel interception over and over again. It's got to make Tuel feel sick to his stomach. Another great analysis by JW; these articles are the highlight of the week. Just thinking the same thing. When I watched the replay and saw how open Stevie was it felt like I got punched in the stomach, I cant imagine how Tuel felt when he saw that. I also felt an extreme level of anger and hate toward Tuel, which I didn't feel until I saw the replay.
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 Just thinking the same thing. When I watched the replay and saw how open Stevie was it felt like I got punched in the stomach, I cant imagine how Tuel felt when he saw that. I also felt an extreme level of anger and hate toward Tuel, which I didn't feel until I saw the replay. I had more pity toward Tuel than anything. I developed hate for Smith; no justice to be rewarded for incompetence like that.
Cash Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 Just thinking the same thing. When I watched the replay and saw how open Stevie was it felt like I got punched in the stomach, I cant imagine how Tuel felt when he saw that. I also felt an extreme level of anger and hate toward Tuel, which I didn't feel until I saw the replay. I can't stop watching replays of that play, and every time I watch it, it kills me how wide-open Stevie is. Any kind of throw to the middle of the endzone -- even all the way at the back of the endzone -- produces a TD. Aaagh. I don't think I've ever said anything positive about Jeff Tuel, but I don't feel any anger or hate towards him. If anything, pity. Poor Jeff Tuel. He is who he is. I don't think it's fair to ask him to be a competent NFL QB, especially as a rookie. I don't necessarily kill Hackett for calling a pass or even that play, although I will continue to endlessly kill Hackett for having ANY play, much less a critical play, where TJ Graham is the QB's first read. If it's a clutch situation, that is the last guy we should be throwing to.
goynahan Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 I can't stop watching replays of that play, and every time I watch it, it kills me how wide-open Stevie is. Any kind of throw to the middle of the endzone -- even all the way at the back of the endzone -- produces a TD. Aaagh. I don't think I've ever said anything positive about Jeff Tuel, but I don't feel any anger or hate towards him. If anything, pity. Poor Jeff Tuel. He is who he is. I don't think it's fair to ask him to be a competent NFL QB, especially as a rookie. I don't necessarily kill Hackett for calling a pass or even that play, although I will continue to endlessly kill Hackett for having ANY play, much less a critical play, where TJ Graham is the QB's first read. If it's a clutch situation, that is the last guy we should be throwing to. That's how I felt about Tuel as well before watching the replay - that he is who he is, that he was put in a tough spot, that I shouldn't expect much of anything from him, etc. etc. But I couldn't help but want to punch him in the face after watching the replay. It goes against what I logically think about him and the whole situation but it's just the natural response I have to seeing it again.
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted November 5, 2013 Posted November 5, 2013 I can't stop watching replays of that play, and every time I watch it, it kills me how wide-open Stevie is. Any kind of throw to the middle of the endzone -- even all the way at the back of the endzone -- produces a TD. Aaagh. I don't think I've ever said anything positive about Jeff Tuel, but I don't feel any anger or hate towards him. If anything, pity. Poor Jeff Tuel. He is who he is. I don't think it's fair to ask him to be a competent NFL QB, especially as a rookie. I don't necessarily kill Hackett for calling a pass or even that play, although I will continue to endlessly kill Hackett for having ANY play, much less a critical play, where TJ Graham is the QB's first read. If it's a clutch situation, that is the last guy we should be throwing to. Agreed on Graham. I think the feeling we all are feeling is a profound sense of dumbfoundedness. We want to direct our anger, rage, sadness, depression, pity to something or someone, but can't figure out exactly who should get it all-- Tuel, Hackett, Graham, Smith, EJ, Thad, Fred and CJ (for not scoring)? I actually keep watching the play, hoping that Tuel goes to Stevie, or that someone makes the tackle on the pick.
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