Holding call on punt

[ko12010]

the refs are lucky the Bills won... or else they'd be dodging a bunch of stuff thrown at them as they left the parking lots.

I wonder if they even frickin care. We get screwed every week, and that's not conspiracy theory talk. Refs cost us last week, too. Hard to get over this sh*t when the refs have so much potential influence over the outcomes of the games. I'll never get over the one New England game last year. 115 - 45 penalty yds in the first half, or somewhere close, and we still almost won. Insane

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

Good thread. Was wondering about this myself. The rule makes sense BTW. Will have to look at the tape and see if the hold (which was blatant BTW, he ripped off the player's helmet) was pre or post kick.

 

From the replay, it looked clearly pre kick.

[Fixxxer]

John Conner neck is toast.

 

Didn't know that, he was much better than the guy that took his spot on the Benglas, a TE converted to FB.

[Beerball]

Good thread. Was wondering about this myself. The rule makes sense BTW. Will have to look at the tape and see if the hold (which was blatant BTW, he ripped off the player's helmet) was pre or post kick.

Only saw the one replay. Thought it was ticky tack. Looked like he was held first, might have ripped the guy to the ground, but iffy. Also iffy as to whether it was before or after the kick. I'm sure we'll see plenty of replays to make up our minds.

 

No I think he's protecting his sister Sarah........

wasn't she his mommy?

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

But that's part of the problem, the ref can't look at a tape and decide if it was pre or post kick. Was very close, likely he first engaged the offensive lineman prior to kicking but then by the time he threw him to the ground was post kick. But since he first contacted him before the kick was probably the correct call. In normal plays the rule makes sense to prevent a defensive lineman from dragging the o-lineman to the ground and have someone else run through the hole. I've see the call made a couple of times on punts, but not very often. Also see nit called on a loose ball where a lineman holds onto another player to prevent tnat player from recovering the loose ball.

 

Good thread. Was wondering about this myself. The rule makes sense BTW. Will have to look at the tape and see if the hold (which was blatant BTW, he ripped off the player's helmet) was pre or post kick.

[BuffaloBillsMagic1]

Play like this happen all the time and don't get called. The guy almost killed SJ one time on a non play and blidsdied him and this Capttain guy or whatever his name was was not called yet summers was. Calls seem to go against us for some reason.

[BuffaloBob]

The hold was blatant and obvious! He tore his helmet off as he took him down! It was WWF at its finest. Stupid penalty to say the least. And yes, it started before the kick.

[xsoldier54]

That was an obvious call. Very stupid penalty. Wasn't the refs fault he was mauling the guy.

[BuffaloBill]

I was more upset with the Williams penalty it was flagrant and stupid. You could argue that Summers was simply playing with intensity. Both really hurt and both nearly cost us the game.

[ExiledInIllinois]

It's stupid. On a punt, a hold won't prevent a first down.

 

The rulebook doesn't see it that way. Until it is actually kicked, yes it can prevent a first down... What happens if it is a fake punt? IMO, it is a good rule and is consistent with every offensive play. Until that ball is kicked, it is just like any other offensive play. The rule book is blind and rightly so. Again, a fake punt comes to mind and the receiver being held... If they changed the rule, you would see holding all the time to prevent any kind of passing fake.

[OhIDunno]

Only saw the one replay. Thought it was ticky tack. Looked like he was held first, might have ripped the guy to the ground, but iffy. Also iffy as to whether it was before or after the kick. I'm sure we'll see plenty of replays to make up our minds.

 

wasn't she his mommy?

 

Yup...

[Buffalo Barbarian]

It's stupid. On a punt, a hold won't prevent a first down.

 

hate those refs for that call but I guess they returned the favor on that PI on our last drive.

[bladiebla]

Just before the ball is punted, notice Summers himself was being held:

 

Right after the punt (left circle is ball leaving), see middle circle for Summers being pushed same as right hand circle the same for opposing player (they both end up on the ground after that), see circle on Summers his left hand, he may have been holding or pushing the guy down there hard to see:

 

Summers pushing through with hand on the guys helmet which is loose apparently and comes off, notice that the ref is not making any actions towards throwing the flag and the ball is long gone by that time.

 

Summers clearly being held while he has no contact going himself anymore, NOTICE THE REF REACHING FOR HIS FLAG in reaction to that:

 

Flag is thrown and in the air, the throwing of the flag is a direct progression from the motion started by the ref when Summers was pulled down (you see Summers tumbling forwards here as a result of that pull):

 

As far as I can see it, defensive holding after the ball was snapped could have been called (for pushing/pulling off the helmet) with the correct call being offsetting holding penalties but the holding prior to the ball being kicked call was plain wrong.

Edited September 16, 2013 by bladiebla

[Peter]

Just before the ball is punted, notice Summers himself was being held:

 

Right after the punt (left circle is ball leaving), see middle circle for Summers being pushed same as right hand circle the same for opposing player (they both end up on the ground after that), see circle on Summers his left hand, he may have been holding or pushing the guy down there hard to see:

 

Summers pushing through with hand on the guys helmet which is loose apparently and comes off, notice that the ref is not making any actions towards throwing the flag and the ball is long gone by that time.

 

Summers clearly being held while he has no contact going himself anymore, NOTICE THE REF REACHING FOR HIS FLAG in reaction to that:

 

Flag is thrown and in the air, the throwing of the flag is a direct progression from the motion started by the ref when Summers was pulled down (you see Summers tumbling forwards here as a result of that pull):

 

As far as I can see it, defensive holding after the ball was snapped could have been called (for pushing/pulling off the helmet) with the correct call being offsetting holding penalties but the holding prior to the ball being kicked call was plain wrong.

Perhaps a stupid question, but where are the photos from and how were you able to post them? Thanks.

[bladiebla]

Perhaps a stupid question, but where are the photos from and how were you able to post them? Thanks.

 

I subscribe to NFL Gamepass and screenshotted (and circled) them myself then uploaded them with postimg.org.

Edited September 16, 2013 by bladiebla

[The Big Cat]

I understand it's a "penalty" and regardless if the timing is quesitonable, I'm firmly of the belief that the ref should know better and eat his !@#$ing whistle on that play.

 

If it was 4th and less than 10, call it all day.

 

4th and 11-15, think about it first.

 

But 4th and 18!? When the penalty otherwise had ZERO bearing on the play, that's a call that let's a team off the hook way too much, and a referee should know better than to insert himself into the game.

 

There's the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law. And the !@#$ing referee should no better.

Edited September 16, 2013 by The Big Cat

[bonechiller]

I believe since technically the team could fake from that formation that is why that call would result in a first down. I could be wrong but that is the only reason I could come up with.

 

I hated the fact they give a first down on this, until I read this ^^^^^

 

Not even thinking of a fake, now it's not such a bad call. Though not sure it was before kick.

 

Still a boneheaded play!

Edited September 16, 2013 by bonechiller

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

I subscribe to NFL Gamepass and screenshotted (and circled) them myself then uploaded them with postimg.org.

 

Thank you so much for posting those. I kept thinking that he had gotten held first when I saw the tape and I was furious about the call. It's nice to have video evidence. I'll be using that as an example when Carolina fans complain about the PI call...along with the no calls on Mario getting held and Stevie randomly getting decked.

[first_and_ten]

I understand it's a "penalty" and regardless if the timing is quesitonable, I'm firmly of the belief that the ref should know better and eat his !@#$ing whistle on that play.

 

If it was 4th and less than 10, call it all day.

 

4th and 11-15, think about it first.

 

But 4th and 18!? When the penalty otherwise had ZERO bearing on the play, that's a call that let's a team off the hook way too much, and a referee should know better than to insert himself into the game.

 

There's the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law. And the !@#$ing referee should no better.

 

Totally agree with this post. And where was the referee when Mario was being tackled on what would have been his 5th and a half sack? Where cam rolled out and completed a huge first down. Why are there no holding calls in these first two games against the other teams? But they call this senseless holding call on a 4th and 18 punt.

[Peter]

I subscribe to NFL Gamepass and screenshotted (and circled) them myself then uploaded them with postimg.org.

Thanks.