Kirby Jackson Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 (edited) I agree with the OP. Every year I think that the Bills will look at the position like the rest of the league does and every year I am wrong. Kevin Everett was a 3rd round pick I think but other than that when was the last time that the Bills used a top 100 pick on a TE? They continue to look at the position like at the position as a luxury. The top offensives teams look at the position as a weapon because it is the easiest place to create a mismatch. It is 2013 and this has been the case since Gates and Gonzalez started this trend. There were many good TEs before them but the basketball player prototype started there. The Bills seem to be slow to catch the evolving NFL. You have to be the first to the party in order to win not the last. Edited September 3, 2013 by Kirby Jackson
Doc Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 Unless I am mistaken, the Bills never got over 400-500 yds from the TE position even with a hall of fame QB (Kelly). I have followed the Bills for a very long time and I cannot recall the last (if any) upper echelon TE? Anyone? Not exactly true. Metz got 609 yards in '93. McKeller had a couple mid-400 yard receiving seasons in '90 and '91. The next best was Riemersma with 590 in 2001 but that wasn't with Kelly.
dave mcbride Posted September 3, 2013 Author Posted September 3, 2013 Unless I am mistaken, the Bills never got over 400-500 yds from the TE position even with a hall of fame QB (Kelly). I have followed the Bills for a very long time and I cannot recall the last (if any) upper echelon TE? Anyone? That is in fact correct. I only went back to 2000, but the Bills haven't had a good TE game in like forever. They have surpassed 600 yards only twice since 1990: 1993: 665 yards 1999: 654 yards
Doc Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 Now let me say that I'd love a top TE and I think next year is the year to add one. But I'm fine going with Chandler and seeing what Gragg can do.
ko12010 Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 I think there's something to this. They haven't had a really good one since metzelaars and the numbers prove it. I don't think ya can really blame it on qb, even fitz could throw the short to intermediate routes for the tight end. It's on my draft wish list in 2014 if there's a good one out there. Buddy nix said ya can't fix everything at once. Chandler is adequate at best and will just have to do this year. Riemersma was pretty solid
dave mcbride Posted September 3, 2013 Author Posted September 3, 2013 (edited) Injury is a valid excuse. You chose 600 yards and again Chandler would have achieved that had he not gotten injured. It is not valid given the record of failure. Good teams - look 'em up and you'll see - all have second options at TE. That is, one guy may get 500 yards but another will get 325. I just went through every team in the NFL and it's pretty much a constant except for the worst teams. The Bills don't have a credible backup TE for Chandler, which is bad management. I'm talking about the position, not a single player. If a guy goes down for, say, the Eagles, they have another guy who can pick up the slack. I do think Chandler is adequate albeit not great. I'm certainly not advocating jettisoning him. Edited September 3, 2013 by dave mcbride
Doc Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 That is in fact correct. I only went back to 2000, but the Bills haven't had a good TE game in like forever. They have surpassed 600 yards only twice since 1990: 1993: 665 yards 1999: 654 yards Huh? Even with Chandler's injury, they surpassed it last year: 647 yards.
RussellDopeland Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 Maybe it's "The curse of Lonnie Johnson." While the Bills have certainly lacked grade A talent at TE (Riemersma and Chandler were and are passable players), the primary issue is the QB problem that's plagued this franchise post-Kelly. In the Superbowl years the Bills received quality production from McKeller, Metzelaars, and even Butch Rolle (in goal line situations). Bledsoe, who had a terrific TE in NE in Ben Coates, was able to utilize his TE (Riemersma) effectively during his stint here. The rest of the sordid lot of QBs we've had haven't suffered due to the lack of quality talent at TE as much as they've been hampered by their own lack of talent. A great QB can make an average TE look like a world-beater- remember Joe Montana making John Frank look like an all-pro at times, or Dan Marino converting countless third-down passes to Jim Jensen (not a true TE but used like one). Maybe it's actually "The Curse of the Abhorrent Bills Quarterback."
dave mcbride Posted September 3, 2013 Author Posted September 3, 2013 Huh? Even with Chandler's injury, they surpassed it last year: 647 yards. Last year Chandler had 571 and Lee Smith 13 yards -- 584 total. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2012.htm
SBUffalo Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 (edited) Injury is a valid excuse. You chose 600 yards and again Chandler would have achieved that had he not gotten injured. Debatable. Chandler needed 29 yards. He had less than that five times last year (not including the Miami game that he was hurt in). To be more fair, he needed 54 coming into the game. He had 11 games under that (just four over). Edited September 3, 2013 by DStebb716
dave mcbride Posted September 3, 2013 Author Posted September 3, 2013 Debatable. Chandler needed 29 yards. He had less than that five times last year (not including the Miami game that he was hurt in). To be more fair, he needed 54 coming into the game. He had 11 games under that (just four over). I'm talking about long term trends here. And 600 yards from the position isn't good in any case.
Doc Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 Last year Chandler had 571 and Lee Smith 13 yards -- 584 total. http://www.pro-footb...ms/buf/2012.htm Dickerson with 63 yards (he actually had 117 for the season, but got 54 yards in that Miami game where Chandler got hurt, so I subtracted it. If I added that, it was 701 yards). Debatable. Chandler needed 29 yards. He had less than that five times last year (not including the Miami game that he was hurt in). Not really. He got 38 yards at the Jets to open the season and that's who they played the last game.
boyst Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 Alright. Hmmph. Let me thunk. This is going to hurt and I am going to limit my response to 10 minutes. Nah, 5. It is 6:17. Our offensive scheme has not relied on the TE to move the chains. Fitzpatrick used the TE as a dump route, even some schemes. When you want to ding and donk, you tossit to a TE. Chandler is the big target you toss it to. Chandler is not the athletic streak down the seam TE that creates a mismatch with athleticism. Chandler is a steam down the middle and over sizes his coverage. Against one LB he wins. Against a LB and DB he loses because the DB is more athletic and can stop the reception. We need a TE like Hernadez was on this team. He had 2nd or 3rd round talent, I had hoped we drafted him for this. I saw more value in him then Gronk. I am not trying to dwell on it, especially how it turned out now. What I am saying is that we needed someone like Dickerson to pan out. A fast guy who can move through 2nd level defenders and make receptions in traffic while stretching the field. David Nelson is the type of TE that we have needed, except, he did not play TE and he could not play TE...and he's used up. 6:20... Looking at your list I can only add that those top teams have great QB's. A good TE makes a great QB better. A great TE makes a weak QB average. The Bills biggest problem is that there have not been very good TE's in this league compared to the number of teams. Sure, NE had two, and then you have about 4 others in the league that are premier... but look at the lifespan of a TE. They're not Tony Gonzalez. They're Antonio Gates. They're very big guys who get the **** kicked out of them worse then a RB. Jay Remersmuffin was the last well rounded TE we had.
BUNCH OF MULARKEY Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 Riemersma was pretty solid Agreed, but kind of pathetic in the past twenty years riemersma ,chandler ,and Robert royal are right up there.
djp14150 Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 As it turns out, the best offenses in the NFL tend to feature strong TE play. The Bills haven't had good TE play in ages, statistically speaking. In 2012, the Bills TEs had 47 receptions for 584 yards, and they didn't really address the position in the offseason. Plus their one credible TE is 8 plus months removed from ACL surgery. Here is the TE production of the top ten offensive teams in 2012: 1. NE - 115 receptions for 1467 yards 2. New Orleans - 100 for 1065 3. Detroit - 118 for 1221 4. Denver - 98 for 974 5. Washington - 57 for 785 6. Dallas - 126 for 1280 7. Houston - 124 for 1309 8. Atlanta - 99 for 953 9. Tampa Bay - 66 for 618 10. Indy - 73 for 817 My conclusion: to have a consistently effective offense in today's NFL, a strong TE game is basically a must. The Bills haven't had that, and I doubt they'll have that this year. The lack of one is the sort of problem that kills drives. The Bills have been bad for a long time: 2011: 47 catches for 441 yards 2010: 23 for 187 2009: 42 for 374 2008: 58 for 598 (their best season - the vaunted Robert Royal/Derek Schouman/Derek Fine combo) 2007: 56 for 499 (Michael Gaines and Robert Royal each had 25 catches) 2006: 29 for 280 2005: 22 for 156 2004: 34 for 362 2003: 44 for 462 2002: 48 for 491 2001: 54 for 591 (Riemersma's best year - 53 catches) 2000: 42 for 480 I mean, the numbers are just pathetic. They haven't gotten 600 yards from the TE position in this century. As it turns out, the best offenses in the NFL tend to feature strong TE play. The Bills haven't had good TE play in ages, statistically speaking. In 2012, the Bills TEs had 47 receptions for 584 yards, and they didn't really address the position in the offseason. Plus their one credible TE is 8 plus months removed from ACL surgery. Here is the TE production of the top ten offensive teams in 2012: 1. NE - 115 receptions for 1467 yards 2. New Orleans - 100 for 1065 3. Detroit - 118 for 1221 4. Denver - 98 for 974 5. Washington - 57 for 785 6. Dallas - 126 for 1280 7. Houston - 124 for 1309 8. Atlanta - 99 for 953 9. Tampa Bay - 66 for 618 10. Indy - 73 for 817 My conclusion: to have a consistently effective offense in today's NFL, a strong TE game is basically a must. The Bills haven't had that, and I doubt they'll have that this year. The lack of one is the sort of problem that kills drives. The Bills have been bad for a long time: 2011: 47 catches for 441 yards 2010: 23 for 187 2009: 42 for 374 2008: 58 for 598 (their best season - the vaunted Robert Royal/Derek Schouman/Derek Fine combo) 2007: 56 for 499 (Michael Gaines and Robert Royal each had 25 catches) 2006: 29 for 280 2005: 22 for 156 2004: 34 for 362 2003: 44 for 462 2002: 48 for 491 2001: 54 for 591 (Riemersma's best year - 53 catches) 2000: 42 for 480 I mean, the numbers are just pathetic. They haven't gotten 600 yards from the TE position in this century. chandler has been fine----its a matter of coaches and play calling. The offense Buffalo has operated tended to not use the TE much during most of the drive but then using the TE much more when inside the opponents 25. Finding a good offensive TE tends to be very difficult to do. Maybe 1 TE per year comes from the draft class as a good receiving TE. Other facotrs that skew the statistics..... 1. The QB---better QBs tend to distribute the ball to their receivers. So on some teams the TE operates as the escape hatch while on other teams its the RB that does this. You really need to split the numbers based on design routes vs dumping offs to avoid a sack. 2. The style of offense---some offensenses dont rely on the TE much. I think Mike Martz didnt even use a TE as a receiver. 3. How do tthe team uses there TE. For example NE uses there TE's more as slot receivers than actually blocking TE's as part of the line.
CardinalScotts Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 tomorrow - why cant we stop the other teams tight end
Doc Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 Alright. Hmmph. Let me thunk. This is going to hurt and I am going to limit my response to 10 minutes. Nah, 5. It is 6:17. Our offensive scheme has not relied on the TE to move the chains. Fitzpatrick used the TE as a dump route, even some schemes. When you want to ding and donk, you tossit to a TE. Chandler is the big target you toss it to. Chandler is not the athletic streak down the seam TE that creates a mismatch with athleticism. Chandler is a steam down the middle and over sizes his coverage. Against one LB he wins. Against a LB and DB he loses because the DB is more athletic and can stop the reception. We need a TE like Hernadez was on this team. He had 2nd or 3rd round talent, I had hoped we drafted him for this. I saw more value in him then Gronk. I am not trying to dwell on it, especially how it turned out now. What I am saying is that we needed someone like Dickerson to pan out. A fast guy who can move through 2nd level defenders and make receptions in traffic while stretching the field. David Nelson is the type of TE that we have needed, except, he did not play TE and he could not play TE...and he's used up. 6:20... Looking at your list I can only add that those top teams have great QB's. A good TE makes a great QB better. A great TE makes a weak QB average. The Bills biggest problem is that there have not been very good TE's in this league compared to the number of teams. Sure, NE had two, and then you have about 4 others in the league that are premier... but look at the lifespan of a TE. They're not Tony Gonzalez. They're Antonio Gates. They're very big guys who get the **** kicked out of them worse then a RB. Jay Remersmuffin was the last well rounded TE we had. What about Gragg? He's 6'3" and 244#, and runs a 4.4?
Meatloaf Sandwich Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 Let me know when we have a QB, then you can talk TE.
Rubes Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 (edited) Did you look at the use of TE in the context of the offense as a whole? In other words, was TE production merely reflective of offensive production in general? Or were the WR on those teams equally, highly productive, reflecting the fact that those teams had efficient, productive passing offenses in general? Edited September 3, 2013 by Rubes
boyst Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 What about Gragg? He's 6'3" and 244#, and runs a 4.4? oh, cool!!! On paper he is a stud. I'm optimistic on the guy, but I was thinking Donald Jones could be a legit #2 and David Nelson the twin to Victor Cruz.
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