dave mcbride Posted September 4, 2013 Author Posted September 4, 2013 That's not what we're saying, dm. A good TE is good to have and hopefully Chandler and/or Gragg breaks out or they draft one next year. However the QB is more important to the success of an offense. No doubt, but it's pretty clear (to me at least, judging from the evidence) that quality TE play is very important in today's NFL. I'm thrilled they took a QB, but they do need another tight end, one who is better than Chandler. That player, paired with Chandler, would measurably improve the offense.
Dragonborn10 Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 Bad analysis. Collectively, those teams account for almost all of the top Quarterbacks in the NFL. Show me a list of 10-12 TE's with journeyman QB's delivering them the ball that are performing at the same level. You can't because it doesn't exist. At best, you have a chicken/egg theory argument that you can't really win, when you're only talking about a guy that might catch 100 balls out of 600+ thrown and ignoring another 300-400 carries on the ground. Tony Gonzalez is a HOF TE and has mostly played with crap at the QB position.
Doc Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 Chris cooley and jason campbell 2008. Tommy kramer and steve jordan. All had big years with average QB's The Redskins were 19th in yards but 28th in points that year.
Helpmenow Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 Who was his wideouts in KC? Besides d. bowe. The Redskins were 19th in yards but 28th in points that year. cooley still had a huge yr! The bills have never put alot of stock in their TE! Pete came over from seattle. Tony hunter was a bust!
Doc Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 cooley still had a huge yr! LOL! The bills have never put alot of stock in their TE! Pete came over from seattle. Tony hunter was a bust! I wonder why this is? Ralph?
Helpmenow Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 (edited) Look it up 2008, 2007 and 2006. 83 catches in 2008 LOL! I wonder why this is? Ralph? Why RW? Edited September 4, 2013 by roush
Doc Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 Look it up 2008, 2007 and 2006. 83 catches in 2008 No, I was laughing at your "[who cares that the Skins' offense sucked,] Cooley had a great year" in a "but these go to 11" kind of way.
RuntheDamnBall Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 God knows the Bills needed better QBs over the years, but can people really believe that the lack of a quality TE in a now TE-centric league is irrelevant? Geez. Nope. And good TEs make QBs better. Manuel would be wise to build a relationship with the ones he has, and the Bills would be wise to look for an upgrade. I'd love to see them fall into position for this kid: Austin Seferian-Jenkins*, TE, Washington Height: 6-6. Weight: 266. Projected 40 Time: 4.60. From Walter Football: 8/3/13: Seferian-Jenkins turned in a stellar freshman season and continued that trend with a superb 2012 campaign. The sophomore caught 69 passes for 852 yards and seven touchdowns in 2012. Once again, defenses really struggled to matchup against him. He hurt his draft stock in spring 2013 with a DUI arrest. Seferian-Jenkins was in the running as the best tight end in college football as a freshman in 2011. He was an absolute force as a receiver and a blocker. Seferian-Jenkins already has an NFL body with the speed to be a top tight end at the next level. As a prospect, he looks like he could develop into a tight end on a par with Rob Gronkowski or Jimmy Graham. Seferian-Jenkins totaled 41 receptions for 538 yards and six touchdowns in 2011. He should produce more in 2013 with quarterback Keith Price maturing. Seferian-Jenkins is a special athlete who also played basketball for Washington. He has a rare combination of size, speed and athleticism. Assuming Seferian-Jenkins maintains his level of play, he will be the top tight end prospect to enter the NFL since the super 2010 crop of Gronkowski, Graham and Aaron Hernandez. With the DUI arrest and pickups of guys like Kiko, he could fit the "jerkball" mould they seem to be going for lately. I see the Gronk / Graham comparisons and get a bit excited.
JohninMinn. Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 Keith Mckeller last receiving tight end on our team. Superbowl years
biggerdaddynj Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 Woods and Goodwin were better picks than Escobar/McDonald/Kelce and Goodwin ('cause we had to get our beast LB in Alonso with the other pick in the 2nd). Barring injuries, Woods has the tools and ethic to be. VERY SOLID 6-10 year WR2 who everyone loves (I think he's got about 2 Pro Bowls in him if all goes as expected--he's gonna be like Amani Toomer--a pro who produces year in and year out without hype-- let's hope he has a similarly long career). We're all going to love this kid (doesn't seem like he's gonna Byrd us). Sure we could have gone with Toilolo or Sims in the 4th and still nabbed a solid DB but I trust the new FO (yes I do) that Duke and Meeks were better fits for the scheme than the upside of one of those TEs over Gragg. Actually, I was PO'ed we didn't sign a veteran TE to a one year deal as insurance on Chandler while we wait for Gragg to develop (Mallett compares him favorably to Hernandez--minus the guns and with a plus on speed!). Patience, I like the new culture and the players' seem to be ready to be pros.
Kelly the Dog Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 chandler has been fine----its a matter of coaches and play calling. The offense Buffalo has operated tended to not use the TE much during most of the drive but then using the TE much more when inside the opponents 25. Finding a good offensive TE tends to be very difficult to do. Maybe 1 TE per year comes from the draft class as a good receiving TE. Other facotrs that skew the statistics..... 1. The QB---better QBs tend to distribute the ball to their receivers. So on some teams the TE operates as the escape hatch while on other teams its the RB that does this. You really need to split the numbers based on design routes vs dumping offs to avoid a sack. 2. The style of offense---some offensenses dont rely on the TE much. I think Mike Martz didnt even use a TE as a receiver. 3. How do tthe team uses there TE. For example NE uses there TE's more as slot receivers than actually blocking TE's as part of the line. Good post. That's what I think. Finding a good one is hard and they don't come along in the conventional ways, hence the lack of a lot of good to great TEs drafted in the first round. Gates and Graham pretty much came out of nowhere. Gronk was an injury risk and Hernandez was a very good prospect who had a tendency to kill people. Gonzalez was the exception. A lot of fairly touted TEs just don't turn into good players. The ones that excel now, like Hernandez and Graham are more like WR and don't block much. I have to think that Scott Chandler, if he were on NE or Den or GB would be getting 80 catches for 800 yards and 10 Tds. That said, we haven't had a good one in 40 years. McKellar was never really all that good. Metz was very good as a short yardage possession guy but scared no one. Remeirsma was third rate Metz.
Prickly Pete Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 I'm not at all convinced that if the Bills had say, Tony Gonzalez all these years, that their record would have been signifigantly different.
n3wyork13 Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 WTB QB to get the TE's a ball. Play wow much?
8-8 Forever? Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 As it turns out, the best offenses in the NFL tend to feature strong TE play. The Bills haven't had good TE play in ages, statistically speaking. In 2012, the Bills TEs had 47 receptions for 584 yards, and they didn't really address the position in the offseason. Plus their one credible TE is 8 plus months removed from ACL surgery. Here is the TE production of the top ten offensive teams in 2012: 1. NE - 115 receptions for 1467 yards 2. New Orleans - 100 for 1065 3. Detroit - 118 for 1221 4. Denver - 98 for 974 5. Washington - 57 for 785 6. Dallas - 126 for 1280 7. Houston - 124 for 1309 8. Atlanta - 99 for 953 9. Tampa Bay - 66 for 618 10. Indy - 73 for 817 My conclusion: to have a consistently effective offense in today's NFL, a strong TE game is basically a must. The Bills haven't had that, and I doubt they'll have that this year. The lack of one is the sort of problem that kills drives. The Bills have been bad for a long time: 2011: 47 catches for 441 yards 2010: 23 for 187 2009: 42 for 374 2008: 58 for 598 (their best season - the vaunted Robert Royal/Derek Schouman/Derek Fine combo) 2007: 56 for 499 (Michael Gaines and Robert Royal each had 25 catches) 2006: 29 for 280 2005: 22 for 156 2004: 34 for 362 2003: 44 for 462 2002: 48 for 491 2001: 54 for 591 (Riemersma's best year - 53 catches) 2000: 42 for 480 I mean, the numbers are just pathetic. They haven't gotten 600 yards from the TE position in this century. I would say TE is the least of the Bills problems right now.
dave mcbride Posted September 4, 2013 Author Posted September 4, 2013 Nope. And good TEs make QBs better. Manuel would be wise to build a relationship with the ones he has, and the Bills would be wise to look for an upgrade. I'd love to see them fall into position for this kid: Austin Seferian-Jenkins*, TE, Washington Height: 6-6. Weight: 266. Projected 40 Time: 4.60. From Walter Football: With the DUI arrest and pickups of guys like Kiko, he could fit the "jerkball" mould they seem to be going for lately. I see the Gronk / Graham comparisons and get a bit excited. Good to know -- thanks. Good post. That's what I think. Finding a good one is hard and they don't come along in the conventional ways, hence the lack of a lot of good to great TEs drafted in the first round. Gates and Graham pretty much came out of nowhere. Gronk was an injury risk and Hernandez was a very good prospect who had a tendency to kill people. Gonzalez was the exception. A lot of fairly touted TEs just don't turn into good players. The ones that excel now, like Hernandez and Graham are more like WR and don't block much. I have to think that Scott Chandler, if he were on NE or Den or GB would be getting 80 catches for 800 yards and 10 Tds. That said, we haven't had a good one in 40 years. McKellar was never really all that good. Metz was very good as a short yardage possession guy but scared no one. Remeirsma was third rate Metz. I'm still scarred by years of listening to Van Miller in my childhood calling, "Ferguson drops back ... looking ... looking ... passes to Gant and ... it is dropped!" Gant has to be an all time leader in the percentage of passes dropped.
bobobonators Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 You forget this is a two part equation, if not three. The second for sure is you must have a quality QB to deliver the ball. The potential third is the offensive line has to give time for the plays to develop. The Bills were clearly missing the second piece. Stevie Johnson has had 3 consecutive +1000yd seasons. Sometimes the best explanation is the simplest and most obvious: our TE's have sucked.
Sisyphean Bills Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 God knows the Bills needed better QBs over the years, but can people really believe that the lack of a quality TE in a now TE-centric league is irrelevant? Geez. It's a position that the Bills have, for the most part, simply conceded as an offensive weapon for years. That fits your data: teams that win have and make use of the contributions made by the position. Those teams win football games in the NFL, which is only irrelevant if winning is not a priority. Concerning the Bills, Trent Edwards is a very middling QB whose best skill was the dump off pass. Not coincidentally, the Bills "best" years of TE play in recent memory came when he was the primary starting QB and Robert Royal was dropping nearly as many as he caught. If Edwards had been dumping off to Tony Gonzalez, those drops turn into first downs that keep the chains moving and the offense on the field. None of which would've made Trent Edwards a great QB any more than Dick Jauron was an offensive mastermind of a coach. Still it is not difficult to imagine how the Bills offense staying on the field would give them both a chance to score more points and to keep the undersized Jauron Tampa-2 defense on the sidelines where it wouldn't be as prone to be decimated by injury season after season.
Sisyphean Bills Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 That's not what we're saying, dm. A good TE is good to have and hopefully Chandler and/or Gragg breaks out or they draft one next year. However the QB is more important to the success of an offense. Who said having a TE was more important than a good QB? If the choice is between having Tom Brady and Rob Gronkowski, anybody would take Brady. On the other hand, Brady's job is much tougher if you surround him with garbage that can't run precise routes or catch a football. Playing 10 against 11 because your TE has no hands and is a token blocker at best isn't a recipe for sustained success.
billsfan_34 Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 As it turns out, the best offenses in the NFL tend to feature strong TE play. The Bills haven't had good TE play in ages, statistically speaking. In 2012, the Bills TEs had 47 receptions for 584 yards, and they didn't really address the position in the offseason. Plus their one credible TE is 8 plus months removed from ACL surgery. Here is the TE production of the top ten offensive teams in 2012: 1. NE - 115 receptions for 1467 yards 2. New Orleans - 100 for 1065 3. Detroit - 118 for 1221 4. Denver - 98 for 974 5. Washington - 57 for 785 6. Dallas - 126 for 1280 7. Houston - 124 for 1309 8. Atlanta - 99 for 953 9. Tampa Bay - 66 for 618 10. Indy - 73 for 817 My conclusion: to have a consistently effective offense in today's NFL, a strong TE game is basically a must. The Bills haven't had that, and I doubt they'll have that this year. The lack of one is the sort of problem that kills drives. The Bills have been bad for a long time: 2011: 47 catches for 441 yards 2010: 23 for 187 2009: 42 for 374 2008: 58 for 598 (their best season - the vaunted Robert Royal/Derek Schouman/Derek Fine combo) 2007: 56 for 499 (Michael Gaines and Robert Royal each had 25 catches) 2006: 29 for 280 2005: 22 for 156 2004: 34 for 362 2003: 44 for 462 2002: 48 for 491 2001: 54 for 591 (Riemersma's best year - 53 catches) 2000: 42 for 480 I mean, the numbers are just pathetic. They haven't gotten 600 yards from the TE position in this century. we havent had a qb for a long time
Bill from NYC Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 Hard to take tight ends when you are rebuilding every 3-4 years with runnin' backs and CB's. OP is correct and quibbling about it is pointless. Having a good offense means having a good or better receiving TE. Thanks for saving me the trouble of posting this.
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