KRT88 Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Anyone who read the Buffalo News article yesterday and follows the Bills knows that Ralph C. Wilson should be in the pro Football Hall of Fame. What can we do about it? He violated rules and kept several AFL team afloat back in the 60's and he has done nothing but good for the NFL throughout his ownership. As a fan, I was pissed to see he isn't a finalist and I want something to be done! http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050...?tbd1061464.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 We can all hold our breaths until we turn blue and pass out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Yeah, ESPECIALLY since Lamar Hunt and Al Davis are in... we ALL know it is a crock. I wonder if Harry Wismer will get in before Ralph? :I starred in Brokeback Mountain: NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 I've always wondered if part of Ralph's problem with some folks on the selection committee was the way the final days of Jim Kelly went down vis-a-vis the salary cap. The cap was just swinging into full implementation and the Bills were hard at work trying to squeeze in one or more competitive teams before the grim reaper of cap hell came to call. Butler had done the unfortunate but probably necessary thing of extending vet contracts far beyond the time a player would play (Bruce, Phile Hansen, John Fina contracts for example) so that he could lower their immediate cap hit by paying them the large amounts or money the market demanded but prorate these payments over several years. This method is effective for holding onto vets, but eventually catches up with you when its time for a player to go and his cap figure accelerates into the current year. When Kelly's contract was coming to an end, he demanded to be paid what the market offered but did so a year in advance of his actual negotiation date occuring. RWS was correctly reluctant to extend the Kelly deal when it was not a sure thing he would be able to play much of his extended contract (in fact he occured that Kelly could not play any of it since Jax and his declining play forced him to retire). However, he made a handshake agreement with Jim to take care of him when the negotiations around this contract occured one year in the future and gave his solemn handshake to do this. Theoretically, such a deal in itself is a violation of the rules as RWS was taking on a future debt without taking a cap hit for it. However, this is not a real or enforcable violation as there was no real dollar amount involved and no actual figure to prorate. The problem was that when Kelly was forced to retire after the Jax concussion, he did make it clear that RWS needed to hold to his word and give Kelly something significant. There was no written contract with specific amounts so RWS could have simply walked away and left Kelly hanging (like the vendors who Kelly left hanging when his Buffalo restaurant folded), but RWS did not do this. He apparently gave Kelly a walking away check for $1 million. In mu mind, this was probably well deserved since Kelly had been a great Bill and helped bring the team many victories and glory and was easily a part of bringing RWS far more than a million bucks in profits. However, he paid this amount and as far as I know this was never allocated against the Bills salary cap because Kelly was not under contract to the Bills anyway at that point and the "walking away" money was probably done as a personal services contract between RWS and Jimbo rather than the Bills an Jimbo. The situation was unfortunate but things happen in life. RWS did something like the right thing in that he honored his word and Jimbo did nothing more than hold RWS to an agreement made and probably merited some payment based on this aggreement, past service to the franchise and the unknowns of Krabbe's disease and Hunter Kelly. However, the fact these payments did not hit the Bills in terms of cap was only legit in that Kelly was no longer a Bill and the general agreement was made when he was a Bill and based on an assumption he would remain one and any payment could be added ("hidden") in his future contract. The deal is marginal but not necessarily problematic in and of itself to the level to deny RWS what seems to me to be a merited place in the HOF. However, I do wonder what RWS said in the days prior to these events because similar off the book deals were being made by folks such as Jerry Jones as the tested the new CBA. I know nothing as a fact, but it would not surprise me at all if some folks may have a problem with RWS taking an initial stand based on an absolute assessment of what is correct and fair in terms of implementation of the CBA (the Jones/Deion Sanders deal was wrong from my perspective) but then he himself invested in a deal which was marginal at best in terms of implementation of the CBA with the Kelly deal. I'm not a fly on the wall so I have no idea what happened. However, if we are theorizing as to what on earth could be denying RWS a rightful spot in the HOF based on his AFL contributions and that even more controversial AFL figures like Lamar Hunt and Al Davis are in, i would suspect that there is something else sticking in the craw of voters. I doubt Ralph had an affair with Pete Rozelle's wife. I doubt RWS is a secret crack cocaine user and folks are taking a stand against him because of some weird transgression or rumor. My guess is that part of the rationale behind folks denying RWS this honot may well be how the Kelly deal went down and comments he made before which did not speak directly to this case but certainly seemed based in a more absolute reading by RWS of what is right and what is wrong. Who knows? I can't explain this bizarre denial beyond wondering if it is something like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corp000085 Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 FFS, you should hire a bunch of actors and produce an episode of "Conspiracy?" for the history channel... Sounds like a good theory. Just curious, how'd you get that info?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnykterstein Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Stojan made this thing http://www.ralphwilsonhof.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuckeyeBill Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 We have to form a grassroots strategy. Writing letters, going to Canton... we have to do something. This is a travesty that he is not in the Hall of Fame. Ralph C. Wilson Jr. has helped to create the NFL as we know it today. He is (one of the many) reasons why the NFL is so much greater than any other professional sport! Canton should open its doors. What do you suggest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRC Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 I've always wondered if part of Ralph's problem with some folks on the selection committee was the way the final days of Jim Kelly went down vis-a-vis the salary cap... 206416[/snapback] I do not buy this logic. In the overall scheme of things, this is pretty minor. Some of the voters have probably not even heard of this, so I cannot imagine this being a major sticking point. If I were a voter, and I heard this as an argument for why RW should not be admitted, I would laugh the person out of the room. If you want conspiracy theories, then you can look at RW testifying against the NFL in an anti-trust lawsuit brought about by the AFL, where RW said that the Buffalo Bills were hurt by the expansion of Minnesota into the league. I would think that this theory would be more plausible than the Kelly issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRC Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 We have to form a grassroots strategy. Writing letters, going to Canton... we have to do something. This is a travesty that he is not in the Hall of Fame. Ralph C. Wilson Jr. has helped to create the NFL as we know it today. He is (one of the many) reasons why the NFL is so much greater than any other professional sport! Canton should open its doors. What do you suggest? 206470[/snapback] First, you need to form a coherent message, specifically pointing out the EXACT reasons for RW to be admitted. List all of the accomplishements and how they have effected the NFL. Show the lasting impression his efforts have had to the league. Without this, no letter writing campaign to the selection committee will work. Start with this, then proceed building up the grass-roots support. Without this being done, you have no shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 I hearken back to the day when Bill MAzeroski was getting the big shaft in the Baseball HOF. Now he is finally in, and looks great in the ol' Hall!!! The only shame is that Ralph could go before he is admitted. THAT is the focus of my anger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Ok. I think I'm just going to keep posting this same answer everytime someone brings up this same subject. Maybe I'll get to be known as Spiked Nanker. Please, take a chill pill. For those Johnny Come Latelys... Ralph DID piss off a LOT of people in the league. He did that when he fired Wade and refused to honor his contract. That was a frigging HUGE No-No. He lost a ton of respect around the league. George Young actually worked for the League office in NYC for a few years after his NY Jints WON TWO SUPERBOWLS. He was the engineer of those teams and, like it or not, NYC is the media capitol of the universe and NFL. George earned a serious amount of recognition and respect across the league not only as the GM of the Jints, but in earlier serivce to the Colts and then in his last years in service to the entire league. He DIED of cancer. That engenders a TON of sympathy - unless of course you hail from western new york and your heart is as cold as the dog turds in your back yard in January. Ralph also was widely known as a tightwad - almost as tight as Dan Rooney - who also had a hard time getting into the HOF because he made a bunch of enemies along the way. Another factor arguing against Ralphie is that he's an owner, and the rules of the HOF have changed regarding their eligibility recently and it's a lot harder for non-players to gain entry. Here's a simple test: Who would you rather have in the HOF - Jim Kelly or Rusty Jones? Finally, perhaps the most egregious recent gaff that Ralphie committed in the eyes of the HOF voters is that he had a pissing contest with John Butler that was a little too public. Although I side mostly with Ralph on this one, when JB came down with the Big C, Ralph was viewd as petty and awfuly slow to forgive and forget some of the sh-- that went down. Ralph did not come up big on that one, and that was public knowledge within the league. That happened right on the heels of him trying to stiff Wade... bad timing. I've said a number of times before in this forum that Ralph would never get into the HOF until George Young did. The good news is George Young will get in this year, and there is no other non-player anywhere near as deserving as Ralph once that happens. I do believe he belongs in the Hall, and I hope he gets to make his acceptance speech. The sooner the better. He should have made it in before Lamar Hunt did. IMHO. Please feel free to copy and paste into anyone else's posting on this subject. Let's not cry about Ralph. He'll get in someday, but he's the one that created most of the baggage that's kept him out so far. He's done a lot of good, and on balance that far outweighs the bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 I do not buy this logic. In the overall scheme of things, this is pretty minor. Some of the voters have probably not even heard of this, so I cannot imagine this being a major sticking point. If I were a voter, and I heard this as an argument for why RW should not be admitted, I would laugh the person out of the room. If you want conspiracy theories, then you can look at RW testifying against the NFL in an anti-trust lawsuit brought about by the AFL, where RW said that the Buffalo Bills were hurt by the expansion of Minnesota into the league. I would think that this theory would be more plausible than the Kelly issue. 206492[/snapback] Like I said, I have no idea why he isn't in because like many Bills partisans his record would seem to make this pretty logical. In the absence of seeming logic I am moved to consider even illogical reasons. I like the cut shared by Nanker that the main reason is that Ralph's teams have failed to win SBs while AFL based folks like Al Davis and LaMarr Hunt who should be even more reprihensible to the NFL types are already in. I am attracted to the theory that Ralph's blow-up with Butler was a bit too public and he lost (a truly unforgivable sin in this world) but this does not seem to strike me as likely moving the votes of that many people, My recitation of the events surrounding the Kelly walkway money seem to be the public record of events and if I got any wrong I appreciate the correction. I think these events would also tend not to move votes and the entirely theoretical part of my thinking which would move votes would be if Ralph took one line of rectitude initially but then took the line of what I believe to be the facts of the Kelly case in real life. These events were reasonable but from my view though they were more what a moral relatavist like a Jerry Jones would do rather than an absolute judgment doing the "right" thing every time. As I sad, this is all theory on my part and I only consider these illogicak conspiracv ideas because the logical thing of honoring RWS with the HOF simply is not happening. I'm certainly game to embrace some other illogical theory to explain these events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 OK, Here we go... ProFootball HOF Selection Process - how it works folks, how it works. Deese is da rules: "Any fan may nominate any qualified person who has been connected with pro football in any capacity simply by writing to the Pro Football Hall of Fame. The only restriction is that a player must have been retired at least five years before he can be considered. For example, a candidate for the 2005 class must have concluded his career not later than the 1999 season. For a non-player, there is no mandatory retirement period, but a coach must be retired before he may be considered. Every nomination received will be processed and forwarded to the Board of Selectors. It is important to emphasize that the Hall of Fame itself has no say whatsoever as to who is or is not elected to membership. The only function of the staff is to process the nominations as they arrive and to coordinate the annual meeting." Pro Football Hall of Fame Board of Selectors i.e., THE GUYS YOU NEED TO WRITE TO AND EXPRESS YOUR OUTRAGE THAT RALPHIE ISN'T IN THE HOF Arizona Andy Bagnato, Arizona Republic Atlanta Furman Bisher, The Atlanta Journal Baltimore Scott Garceau, WMAR-TV Buffalo Mark Gaughan, Buffalo News Carolina Charles Chandler, Charlotte Observer Chicago Don Pierson, Chicago Tribune* Cincinnati Chick Ludwig, Dayton Daily News Cleveland Tony Grossi, Cleveland Plain Dealer Dallas Rick Gosselin, Dallas Morning News* Denver Woodrow Paige, Denver Post Detroit Jerry Green, The Detroit News* Green Bay Cliff Christl, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel Houston John McClain, Houston Chronicle* Indianapolis Mike Chappell, Indianapolis Star Jacksonville Sam Kouvaris, WJXT-TV Kansas City Bob Gretz, KCFX Overland Park, KS Miami Edwin Pope, Miami Herald* Minnesota Sid Hartman, The Minneapolis Star-Tribune New England Ron Borges, Boston Globe New Orleans Pete Finney, Times-Picayune New York (Giants) Vinny DiTrani, Bergen Record New York (Jets) Paul Zimmerman, Sports Illustrated Oakland Frank Cooney, The Sports Xchange Philadelphia Paul Domowitch, Philadelphia Daily News Pittsburgh Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette St. Louis Bernie Miklasz, St. Louis Post-Dispatch San Diego Jerry Magee, San Diego Union Tribune* San Francisco Ira Miller, San Francisco Chronicle* Seattle John Clayton, ESPN/ESPN Magazine Tampa Bay Ira Kaufman, Tampa Tribune Tennessee David Climer, The Tennessean Washington Len Shapiro, Washington Post* PFWA Howard Balzer, The Sports Xchange/USA Today Sports Weekly At Large Jarrett Bell, USA Today At Large Dave Goldberg, Associated Press* At Large Peter King, Sports Illustrated At Large Bob Oates, Los Angeles Times At Large Len Pasquarelli, ESPN.com At Large Mike Wilbon, Washington Post * Also serves on the Senior Selection Committee. What Bob Dicesare (of the Buffalo News) Should Say to Mark Gaughan, of the Buffalo News " There are 18 contributors among the 225 members of the Pro Football Hall of Fame, six of whom were inducted in the founding class of 1963. Only three owners have been elected since 1972: Al Davis of the Raiders in '92, Wellington Mara of the Giants in '97 and Dan Rooney of the Steelers in 2000. That's scant recognition on the ownership front considering the NFL's boom took place post-'72. " I'll say it again. George Young gets in this year. Ralph might get in next. Maybe Mark Gaughan should be making some more noise than he has. Wasn't it Larry Felzer that pushed Joe D's candidacy? So maybe it's Mark's feeling that Ralph is chopped liver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawk Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 Ok. I think I'm just going to keep posting this same answer everytime someone brings up this same subject. Maybe I'll get to be known as Spiked Nanker. Please, take a chill pill. For those Johnny Come Latelys... Ralph DID piss off a LOT of people in the league. He did that when he fired Wade and refused to honor his contract. That was a frigging HUGE No-No. He lost a ton of respect around the league. 206590[/snapback] But the NFL had no problem with Al Davis...oh yea..he only SUED THEM!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 But the NFL had no problem with Al Davis...oh yea..he only SUED THEM!!!!! 207007[/snapback] And you don't think his selection in '92 had anything to do with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawk Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 And you don't think his selection in '92 had anything to do with that? 207013[/snapback] Did It???,,,You tell me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRC Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 But the NFL had no problem with Al Davis...oh yea..he only SUED THEM!!!!! 207007[/snapback] I thought the lawsuit was in '95? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawk Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 I thought the lawsuit was in '95? 207024[/snapback] FYI...AL Davis caused a lot of stevetojan in the league..but yet he made Canton...NOW tell me how Ralphs messing with wade philip's contract,,made him such a outcast, that he wont be voted in..simply ridiculous... http://football.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsi...Fdavisall.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRC Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 FYI...AL Davis caused a lot of stevetojan in the league..but yet he made Canton...NOW tell me how Ralphs messing with wade philip's contract,,made him such a outcast, that he wont be voted in..simply ridiculous... http://football.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsi...Fdavisall.shtml 207060[/snapback] You are preaching to the chior about Davis. He has been a thorn in the NFL's side for a while before his induction. His induction may have been to try to calm him down. Obviously, it did not work since he sued the league not 3 years after his induction. None of the theories mentioned in this thread should keep RW out, IMO, but you need to show the reasons FOR his induction. People B word that he is not in there, but fail to provide a detailed listing of WHY he should be in. Do that, and you are on your way to getting him inducted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockpile Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 None of the theories mentioned in this thread should keep RW out, IMO, but you need to show the reasons FOR his induction. People B word that he is not in there, but fail to provide a detailed listing of WHY he should be in. Do that, and you are on your way to getting him inducted. 207069[/snapback] But Ken, starting with the link to the original post, AND with the qualifications listed on the petition that was linked to TSW a while back (I am too lazy and too busy to go find it), it is absurd that RW is not at least a candidate. You are the politician my friend. I do not have to explain to YOU that qualifications are not enough. Finding out WHO is blocking RW and WHY is the key to his "enshrinement" in the HOF. My prediction is that he will get in... the year after he dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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