Stevie Johnson: Pats can't 'stop me'

[The Big Cat]

The key to whether or not the Pats can stop SJ is how effective they are at stopping the Bills running game.If the Pats can contain the Bills rushing attack - without having to commit an extra defender in the box - then added attention (ie that extra defender) can be placed towards stopping SJ ..... if need be.

 

I feel like I'm back in an argument about Lee Evans...

[thebandit27]

No worries though. A couple weeks ago on Rochester radio during camp SJ13 said he had learned his lesson and was done doing immature things that hurt the team.

 

Here's the part I need to understand: how does what he said in the interview (I'm assuming you listened to it) hurt the team?

[billsfan1959]

Yet you don't say why the stats are useless.

 

In this case, we're looking at his history to make a determination about the very subjective assertion: Pats can't stop Stevie. What would "unstoppable" stats look like? I'd venture to say they're a whole lot better than about 4 catches for 60ish yards and less than half a touchdown per game.

 

And if stats don't exist in a vacuum, I welcome you to jump on into the many debates I've had defending Ryan Fitzpatrick, that Stevie wouldn't have gotten 3 x 1000 yard seasons if Fitz was as incompetent as posters here will have you believe.

 

Actually, I did. Those stats tell us nothing about the games themselves. Let me be a little more specific: How did his teammates play, how often was he double teamed, how often was he targeted, how accurate were the passes, did the offensive line give the quarterback enough time, etc. Those statistics are meaningless because they fail to factor in so many things that go into how effective any player is in any given game. They become even more meaningless when we are talking about how successful Johnson might be in a future game. I could go on; however, you should get the point - and I am sure you do.

[thebandit27]

For those that wonder about the Stevie-Fitz dynamic, here's a great breakdown by Cian Fahey:

 

http://presnapreads.com/2013/05/24/the-rollercoaster-series-steve-johnson-buffalo-bills/

[The Big Cat]

Actually, I did. Those stats tell us nothing about the games themselves. Let me be a little more specific: How did his teammates play, how often was he double teamed, how often was he targeted, how accurate were the passes, did the offensive line give the quarterback enough time, etc. Those statistics are meaningless because they fail to factor in so many things that go into how effective any player is in any given game. They become even more meaningless when we are talking about how successful Johnson might be in a future game. I could go on; however, you should get the point - and I am sure you do.

 

I understand what you're saying. But if you're going to dismiss the validity of stats based on these factors, then all stats are moot. CJ Spiller took it 90 yards to the house because two linebackers missed their assignment, or because the defense only had 10 guys on the field, therefore CJ's stats are meaningless.

 

Also, and more to the point, and similar to what somebody indirectly mentioned already, if New England* forced the QB into bad throws by disrupting the line, by getting into throwing lanes, but pressuring the quaterback, or by forcing the quarterback to go through more progressions, then--by your logic--they have effectively "stopped" Stevie Johnson.

[billsfan1959]

I understand what you're saying. But if you're going to dismiss the validity of stats based on these factors, then all stats are moot. CJ Spiller took it 90 yards to the house because two linebackers missed their assignment, or because the defense only had 10 guys on the field, therefore CJ's stats are meaningless.

 

Also, and more to the point, and similar to what somebody indirectly mentioned already, if New England* forced the QB into bad throws by disrupting the line, by getting into throwing lanes, but pressuring the quaterback, or by forcing the quarterback to go through more progressions, then--by your logic--they have effectively "stopped" Stevie Johnson.

 

I am not dismissing the validity of statistics - I am dismissing the validity of using general statistics in a vacuum. I will use your example: CJ Spiller carries the ball ten times in a game. On one play he runs for 90 yards and a touchdown because the other team has only 10 men on the field or because two linebackers miss their assignments on that particular play. On the other nine plays, Spiller gains 27 yards for a 3 YPC average. He ends the game with 117 yards on ten carries, for a YPC average of 11.7, and a touchdown. The stats are valid in terms of numbers only. If you were to then say the team he was playing is incapable of stopping him because he averages 11.7 yards per rush against them - then those stats become meaningless because they do not tell the whole story.

 

In general, stats are not that meaningful when the sample size is small, and become more meaningful as the sample size increases. For example, if Spiller plays for ten years and finishes his career averaging approx 20 carries a game and over 6 YPC, then the statistics become more meaningful because things like plays with only ten defensive players on the field or linebackers missing their assignments become statistical outliers. But even then, all they would really tell you is that he was a really good running back.

 

My point was that statistics, other than in very controlled scientific conditions, can only tell you so much. In the post I was responding to, those stats literally were meaningless in terms of supporting the argument. Maybe that is why, in sports, you often hear the phrase, "statistics are for losers."

Edited September 3, 2013 by billsfan1959

[The Big Cat]

I am not dismissing the validity of statistics - I am dismissing the validity of using general statistics in a vacuum. I will use your example: CJ Spiller carries the ball ten times in a game. On one play he runs for 90 yards and a touchdown because the other team has only 10 men on the field or because two linebackers miss their assignments on that particular play. On the other nine plays, Spiller gains 27 yards for a 3 YPC average. He ends the game with 117 yards on ten carries, for a YPC average of 11.7, and a touchdown. The stats are valid in terms of numbers only. If you were to then say the team he was playing is incapable of stopping him because he averages 11.7 yards per rush against them - then those stats become meaningless because they do not tell the whole story.

 

In general, stats are not that meaningful when the sample size is small, and become more meaningful as the sample size increases. For example, if Spiller plays for ten years and finishes his career averaging approx 20 carries a game and over 6 YPC, then the statistics become more meaningful because things like plays with only ten defensive players on the field or linebackers missing their assignments become statistical outliers. But even then, all they would really tell you is that he was a really good running back.

 

My point was that statistics, other than in very controlled scientific conditions, can only tell you so much. In the post I was responding to, those stats literally were meaningless in terms of supporting the argument. Maybe that is why, in sports, you often hear the phrase, "statistics are for losers."

 

And I don't necessarily disagree with that.

[CodeMonkey]

Here's the part I need to understand: how does what he said in the interview (I'm assuming you listened to it) hurt the team?

Yes I did hear it that day. What he said in the interview didn't hurt the team. What he said in the interview basically was that he had grown up and wasn't going to do immature things any more that could hurt the team. Yet not even week one and it's the same old Stevie it seems.

[Maury Ballstein]

 

 

Fair enough. But every time his antics bubble up, folks like you dismiss it by saying "Stevie's just..."

 

And my argument all along is that said dismissal is fine, if he did it once or twice, and not regularly enough that we have to keep hearing "Stevie's just..."

 

As mentioned already, his antics were enough for one coach to bench him already...

 

The happy new year / why so serious gangster is out of control !

 

 

[B-Large]

I wish Football players were more like hockey players in this regard. Shut your mouth and earn respect by being better, tougher and more hungry that your opponent.

 

Stevie is a clown and is free to run his mouth, dance like a jackass after TD's and pull other antics, but after purusing the Patriots/Bills records thread I don't see much reason for any Bills to run their mouths...

 

Lets hope that Brady doesn't sodomize our below average secondary for 50 this weekend.... Stevie, can you play DB? Could you unstoppable at that position?

[C.Biscuit97]

I wish Football players were more like hockey players in this regard. Shut your mouth and earn respect by being better, tougher and more hungry that your opponent.

 

Stevie is a clown and is free to run his mouth, dance like a jackass after TD's and pull other antics, but after purusing the Patriots/Bills records thread I don't see much reason for any Bills to run their mouths...

 

Lets hope that Brady doesn't sodomize our below average secondary for 50 this weekend.... Stevie, can you play DB? Could you unstoppable at that position?

 

Maybe if hockey players had some personalities, it won't be a fringe sport.

 

Btw, it's hilarious how posters act like players (most of them who are much younger than then) are supposed to act a certain way. You realize you are rooting for guys who play a game? Some of you need to get over yourselves.

[BUNCH OF MULARKEY]

I don't think he's a bad guy. I think he's a good player, good teammate, and good in the community.

Just the constant "look at me" antics seem like desperate pleas for attention that you would expect from a high school kid.

 

[transient]

Can't help it. Thread title makes me think of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c69DzQ2Yu8w

Edited September 4, 2013 by transient

[thebandit27]

Yes I did hear it that day. What he said in the interview didn't hurt the team. What he said in the interview basically was that he had grown up and wasn't going to do immature things any more that could hurt the team. Yet not even week one and it's the same old Stevie it seems.

 

Sorry for the confusion, I was referring to the audio of the "Pats can't stop me" quote...I meant to ask what about that interview hurt the team.

[CodeMonkey]

Sorry for the confusion, I was referring to the audio of the "Pats can't stop me" quote...I meant to ask what about that interview hurt the team.

Ohhhh. That quote in particular nothing (unless you believe in things like like firing other team up). But it sure makes it look like the same old SJ13.

 

Plus to be honest it makes him look like a fool. All anyone has to do is look at the records of the two teams over the last 13 years, both in general and against each other, and any Bill shooting their mouth off looks the fool.

Edited September 4, 2013 by CodeMonkey

[thebandit27]

Ohhhh. That quote in particular nothing (unless you believe in things like like firing other team up). But it sure makes it look like the same old SJ13.

 

Plus to be honest it makes him look like a fool. All anyone has to do is look at the records of the two teams over the last 13 years, both in general and against each other, and any Bill shooting their mouth off looks the fool.

 

Gotcha...for me, I tend to have (what I assume is) the same attitude as the players toward that kind of stuff; it just doesn't bother me. Some guys talk, some guys don't. I can't say I agree with your take, but I do understand that some folks prefer their athletes to keep quiet.

[B-Large]

Maybe if hockey players had some personalities, it won't be a fringe sport.

 

Btw, it's hilarious how posters act like players (most of them who are much younger than then) are supposed to act a certain way. You realize you are rooting for guys who play a game? Some of you need to get over yourselves.

 

If you like seeing Grown men dance like idiots all over your favorite game, fine. These are men were talking about.. I don't like or need the dancing and bull **** after a touchdown, hand the ball to the ref and get back to business... I don't know when this dancing **** started, but its stupid.

[biglukes]

 

 

If you like seeing Grown men dance like idiots all over your favorite game, fine. These are men were talking about.. I don't like or need the dancing and bull **** after a touchdown, hand the ball to the ref and get back to business... I don't know when this dancing **** started, but its stupid.

God forbid anybody have fun playing a GAME.

[thebandit27]

If you like seeing Grown men dance like idiots all over your favorite game, fine. These are men were talking about.. I don't like or need the dancing and bull **** after a touchdown, hand the ball to the ref and get back to business... I don't know when this dancing **** started, but its stupid.

 

And while you're at it...GET OFF MY LAWN!

[biglukes]

 

 

And while you're at it...GET OFF MY LAWN!

Damn kids with their rock n roll, 8 track tapes.