The "Why drafting DBs is now a must" thread

[skibum]

Are we over-reacting a bit? I missed the game, and in reading these comments I assumed the Lions QBs went like 45 of 50 for 600 yards and 7 touchdowns.

 

I look at the box score and see they went 15-29 for 151 yards.

 

DBs lose their battles a majority of the time - That's why good QBs routinely complete well over 60% of their passes. I feel like the expectation on this board is that our DBs must break up every single pass that comes their way, or else they're deemed terrible.

 

Discuss.

[ALLEN1QB]

I hope we can pick up some decent players after this weeks cuts. Guess we know how next year's draft will go.

[ganesh]

Having just returned from the game, and,

having spent all of it focused on the defensive backfield when the Lions had the ball, and,

having seen our lack of depth, and especially TJ Heath, get beat 10+ times:

 

Those of you who decry drafting CBs and Ss high are literally fooling themselves.

 

We had them...over and over, drive after drive...but for bad DB play. We, and when I say we, I mean 5+ rows/seats in my section, all around me, could see what was going to happen before the snap, 80-90% of the time: the DBs simply failed.

 

Period.

 

Lack of talent is the issue here:

1. Searcy needs to be cut immediately.

2. TJ Heath is not even PS material.(Disclaimer: the Lions picked on him mercilessly. However, he should have been able to make at least 1 play. He did not.) EDIT: He did make one play...sorta. The WR would have had to make a circus catch to haul it in and stay in bounds. Heath made sure he couldn't.

3. Crezdon Butler is a capable player, but only against a #2 or less WR. He broke off his man coverage and tackled a RB for a loss. That alone means he makes this team, almost by default.

4. Dangerfield = cut.

5. Duke Williams was worth the draft pick, but, he is a rookie, and prone to being overly aggressive(see penalty(ies?)).

6. Meeks = solid PS

7. I'd put Kip Edwards on my team before any of the above players.

8. Justin Rogers didn't play enough for me to form a reasonable opinion.

9. I am wasting bits and time talking about Robey in any capacity.

 

People: We cannot play the NFL game with this level of talent at DB. End of story. We need our starters, sure, but, what happens when they get hurt? What happens when we need 4 cover guys on the field at the same time,plus 1 or 2 Ss? I will tell you: this game.

 

Enough is enough. You simply cannot continue to claim that the O lines and D lines are always more important, watch the game tonight, and then call yourself an informed football fan.

 

And yet the Bills have two 1st round picks and a two top 2nd round pick in the Defensive backfield....That is 4 starters out of the 4 positions...You are simply not going to draft more DBs at the top of the draft to be your # 5 through 8. It is bad that players like Brooks and Butler have not gone on to be good role players and that Byrd is limping around and Gilmore is injured for the next 5-6 weeks.

[Packerland Bills Fan]

We need another Gilmore. CB is going to be the position to watch this year in the college ranks.

 

But if Manuel can keep developing, the foundation will be there, even if the secondary holds the team back.

[MClem06]

Pettine sent one blitz call in the entire night. They did this on purpose to see which corners would hold up on man coverage. When you give a pro back up and 2nd/3rd stringers a ton of time to pick them apart they're going to look bad. YES, I watched the game and YES they looked awful. I do agree that Heath is a goner and was burned on every possible occasion. Butler is going to be helped on coverage if we have to start him. They'll cheat Aaron Williams or Jarius to his side but that will put McKelvin on his own sometimes which is downright scary. My question : Is Crezdon Butler more talented than Aaron Williams at CB? Aaron at least has some hours as a starter going up against the 1's. I'm not saying he is but what does the board think?

[eme123]

Prior to the draft I was pulling for the Bills to draft a starting corner. In hind sight i'm glad we got EJ. We still need corners desperately.

 

Crezdon Butler looked awful last night in my opinion. His man beat him glaringly for a 30 yard gain. The the next play Butler gave up a TD to the same guy.

[Dr. Fong]

 

We could have won this game, easily, if we had just 2 above average cover guys on the field.

 

 

One has a broken wrist and the other is in the middle of throwing a tantrum.

[CountDorkula]

Somewhere in the world, Dick Jauron is smiling.

 

I was thinking the same thing.

[uncle flap]

Are we over-reacting a bit? I missed the game, and in reading these comments I assumed the Lions QBs went like 45 of 50 for 600 yards and 7 touchdowns.

 

I look at the box score and see they went 15-29 for 151 yards.

 

DBs lose their battles a majority of the time - That's why good QBs routinely complete well over 60% of their passes. I feel like the expectation on this board is that our DBs must break up every single pass that comes their way, or else they're deemed terrible.

 

Discuss.

 

I'd suggest you find a replay of the game to watch. Heath was especially terrible, and to say Butler struggled is putting it mildly.

 

Nothing you said is untrue, except perhaps that the expectation is that every DB should be perfect. I disagree, and I think many, if not most, here can tell the difference between giving up a completion and getting outright burned.

 

The Lions receivers had a handful of drops and catches out of bounds. The stat line doesn't accurately reflect how poorly the secondary played IMO. Especially when there's no bonus for roasting the coverage.

 

In defense of the Bills DBs, it was obvious that they were put on islands much of the time, so that they could be evaluated at a higher standard. Well, they didn't rise to the occasion.

 

I agree with OC the OP re: drafting DBs high. And I think Brooks will turn out OK. Right now, it's kinda feast or famine with him, but he's still developing. I think we will all agree soon that he is at the very least capable - certainly not a "hole."

 

If they can pick up an FA who is better than Butler, and/or Rogers can live up to the promise he showed his first year (last year was abysmal), I think they'll be OK.

 

Looking ahead to next year, I don't think the situation is so dire that they need to draft a DB high, but I still think they should simply because of the numbers game that OC illustrated above.

[BuffOrange]

The problem isn't that the Bills haven't taken enough DBs, it's that too many I them have been the wrong ones. Lets also not forget that the best two weren't playing. Take the top two off of any team in the league and it would show.

 

This. I am one of those whackos who thinks all things being equal, lines are more important. Most of the time though the DT & the CB you're considering drafting don't turn out to be equal players relative to their positions. Just as Ngata was a better football player than Whitner, Patrick Peterson is a better player than Dareus. And Joe Schmo 1st round Safety was better than Aaron Maybin & Mike Williams & John Doe DT is better than McKelvin. To be good in this league you either have to pick the right guy more often than the Bills have, or have a really good QB.

 

Pretty obvious stuff. Thanks for the awesome "informed football fan" public service announcement though OP.

Edited August 30, 2013 by BuffOrange

[OCinBuffalo]

Crezdon Butler looked awful last night in my opinion. His man beat him glaringly for a 30 yard gain. The the next play Butler gave up a TD to the same guy.

He did have his problems, but I did say:

3. Crezdon Butler is a capable player, but only against a #2 or less WR. He broke off his man coverage and tackled a RB for a loss. That alone means he makes this team, almost by default.

Which is how you know that this

DBs lose their battles a majority of the time - That's why good QBs routinely complete well over 60% of their passes. I feel like the expectation on this board is that our DBs must break up every single pass that comes their way, or else they're deemed terrible.

isn't accurate.

 

No, I do not expect DBs to break up every single pass. No, I fully expect them to be beaten often. This is merely a numbers, or more accurately, a %s game.

 

I didn't base my evaluation on the scoreboard or merely the outcomes of plays. No competent coach does that. I looked at each individual player, in terms of technique. Specifically, not whether they got beat, but rather, after the WR made their initial move, how well did the CB react, and recover their position? What did they do prior to the move that gave them the best chance to recover? How often and how badly were they beaten, because they were too slow to turn their hips and run, or, don't have the necessary foot quickness and strength to make contact with their man at the LOS, and delay his rout, thereby giving the D Line time to get to the QB?

 

Yes, Butler was beaten. However, taking each play into consideration, including the ones where his man wasn't targeted, Butler is a competent cover guy. The main reason that TJ Heath was picked on so often? Butler had better coverage on his man, especially the first 5 yards off the LOS. However, as I said, he is not currently capable of dealing with a #1 WR.

This. I am one of those whackos who thinks all things being equal, lines are more important. Most of the time though the DT & the CB you're considering drafting don't turn out to be equal players relative to their positions. Just as Ngata was a better football player than Whitner, Patrick Peterson is a better player than Dareus. And Joe Schmo 1st round Safety was better than Aaron Maybin & Mike Williams & John Doe DT is better than McKelvin. To be good in this league you either have to pick the right guy more often than the Bills have, or have a really good QB.

 

Pretty obvious stuff. Thanks for the awesome "informed football fan" public service announcement though OP.

Right, the lines are always more important, but especially when we miss on a high DB.

 

However, when we hit on a high DB....what? exactly what? Guys like you spend 3 months after the draft telling us that, while you understand the need for CB, the 5-6th best LT on the board would have been a better pick than the #2 CB on the board.

 

It's this illogical, and inconsistent, approach to posting here that I have identified. Too bad if you don't like it. It's the same thing every time: missing on a high DB pick is always 5x the sin that missing on a high lineman pick is.

 

Horsecrap. Dangerous horsecrap to boot. We need to draft more DBs, because we need more of them on the field, period. We don't need to decry the FO every time they do what is merely: prudent.

 

It's as I said. Enough is enough with this distortion and/or double standard.

[run dat back]

 

Enough is enough. You simply cannot continue to claim that the O lines and D lines are always more important, watch the game tonight, and then call yourself an informed football fan.

 

The lines ARE more important, but it's not like you can play with two stud lines and trash at every other position. No question you need competent personnel at most every position, and the secondary has been a mixed bag for the Bills over the past few years. The fact the safeties often led in tackles highlights an arguably bigger problem; that linebacker has been a complete wasteland.

[KD in CA]

But we have drafted DBs. High and often.

 

Well you have to draft a lot of good ones in a short period of time since the Bills team policy is to never resign a DB. You know, unless he returns a kick for a touchdown every couple of years.

[BADOLBILZ]

Having just returned from the game, and,

having spent all of it focused on the defensive backfield when the Lions had the ball, and,

having seen our lack of depth, and especially TJ Heath, get beat 10+ times:

 

Those of you who decry drafting CBs and Ss high are literally fooling themselves.

 

We had them...over and over, drive after drive...but for bad DB play. We, and when I say we, I mean 5+ rows/seats in my section, all around me, could see what was going to happen before the snap, 80-90% of the time: the DBs simply failed.

 

Period.

 

Lack of talent is the issue here:

1. Searcy needs to be cut immediately.

2. TJ Heath is not even PS material.(Disclaimer: the Lions picked on him mercilessly. However, he should have been able to make at least 1 play. He did not.) EDIT: He did make one play...sorta. The WR would have had to make a circus catch to haul it in and stay in bounds. Heath made sure he couldn't.

3. Crezdon Butler is a capable player, but only against a #2 or less WR. He broke off his man coverage and tackled a RB for a loss. That alone means he makes this team, almost by default.

4. Dangerfield = cut.

5. Duke Williams was worth the draft pick, but, he is a rookie, and prone to being overly aggressive(see penalty(ies?)).

6. Meeks = solid PS

7. I'd put Kip Edwards on my team before any of the above players.

8. Justin Rogers didn't play enough for me to form a reasonable opinion.

9. I am wasting bits and time talking about Robey in any capacity.

 

People: We cannot play the NFL game with this level of talent at DB. End of story. We need our starters, sure, but, what happens when they get hurt? What happens when we need 4 cover guys on the field at the same time,plus 1 or 2 Ss? I will tell you: this game.

 

Enough is enough. You simply cannot continue to claim that the O lines and D lines are always more important, watch the game tonight, and then call yourself an informed football fan.

 

Did your trained eye happen to see the cornerback talent signing for cheap in free agency this year?

 

Mine did.

 

As were a whole lot of players at other positions.....signing for cheap.

 

The Bills missed the boat......anybody with one eye, trained or otherwise, could see that the team was going to have to strike platinum on draft day to avoid being depth deprived this year.

 

But they have $30M in cap space.......before the Eric Wood deal.

 

Bottom line.....it's not about drafting defensive backs early. The Bills have two very early first round picks in their secondary....Gilmore and Leodis. They reached for Williams....who was such an early second round pick it was almost a first rounder.

 

That's not much of a return on investment whether they are healthy or not.

 

Bottom line: Get a QB, score points, and rush the passer with grade A talent and the secondary can be addressed......as EBall quoted lil' Donte.....with" B's and C's".

 

Check the quality of secondary play on the teams in the SB the last 5-6 years and you will find that it was basically a bunch of dudes. Some had pedigree but underachieved, others were just journeyman quality. The last HOF type CB to play in a SB was Charles Woodson with Oakland and that was a decade ago. Don't waste your top picks on corners.......waste them elsewhere.

[Orton's Arm]

There are more DB's on the field than any other position every play. Almost half the field on a given play(5). Every team should be taking a DB in the first 3 rounds every draft. Hating on Nix and Jauron for this was flat out stupid. Hating on Mckelvin is a different story. I do think his contract is pretty friendly for us though.

 

I think most of the anti- DB people are also sky is falling people in the PS. It doesn't mean they wont be wrong, but it for sure doesn't mean they know more than us.

 

> Hating on Nix and Jauron for this was flat out stupid.

 

No it wasn't. The real stupidity was the Bills' decision to reach for Whitner. There were teams like the Broncos interested in moving up to our draft spot. No way was Whitner good enough to remotely justify passing up a trade like that.

 

In some ways, the McKelvin pick was easier to justify than the Whitner pick. At least with McKelvin, the Bills were doing something the experts thought might be smart. Instead of doing something the experts knew was stupid, like picking Whitner 8th overall. Granted, neither player lived up to expectations; so with the benefit of hindsight both picks look about equally bad.

 

Another objection to the Bills taking DBs early is that when a guy does work out, the Bills typically let him walk after his first contract. Antoine Winfield went first-contract-and-out. Nate Clements went first-contract+1 year-and out. Greer left in free agency shortly after the Bills drafted McKelvin. Byrd looks like he has one foot out the door.

 

Over the last 40 years, the Bills have used 25% of their first picks of the draft on DBs. Granted, that's not as bad as using 25% of your first picks of the draft on RBs. (Which they've done also.) But it's still too much. One of the reasons they've poured so many picks into the secondary over the years is because they want to have a good #1 CB, but don't want to do what it would take to sign their best DBs to extensions.

 

If the Bills used a first round pick on an Antoine Winfield every ten years or so, and kept him locked up as a Bill for the guy's entire career, I'd be happy. But there have been far too many first-contract-and-out DBs, DBs as busts, DBs who were reaches, etc. Under the right circumstances, I'm perfectly okay with the Bills using a first round pick on a DB. The Gilmore pick is a good example of that. Or will be, if the Bills don't let him go first-contract-and-out. But these first round DBs must be taken as part of a disciplined, long-term team building strategy. Letting first round DBs go first contract and out, so that they can be replaced by fresh first round, first contract and out DBs, does not represent a disciplined strategy.

[BuffOrange]

Right, the lines are always more important, but especially when we miss on a high DB.

 

However, when we hit on a high DB....what? exactly what? Guys like you spend 3 months after the draft telling us that, while you understand the need for CB, the 5-6th best LT on the board would have been a better pick than the #2 CB on the board.

 

It's this illogical, and inconsistent, approach to posting here that I have identified. Too bad if you don't like it. It's the same thing every time: missing on a high DB pick is always 5x the sin that missing on a high lineman pick is.

 

Horsecrap. Dangerous horsecrap to boot. We need to draft more DBs, because we need more of them on the field, period. We don't need to decry the FO every time they do what is merely: prudent.

 

It's as I said. Enough is enough with this distortion and/or double standard.

 

"Guys like me.."

Enough is enough.."

"Distortions."

 

Its almost as if Im the one starting narcissistic threads, making up straw man arguments & bragging about how I was right about...well, nothing really (its not like the Ravens played most all of last yr without their best CB by a mile).

 

We have archives here. Why don't you show your work one time in your life rather than make outrageously sweeping generalizations.

"Guys like me" defend the lack of tackle drafted for the sake of drafting a tackle in the face of heavy criticism the year we took Wood/Levitre & traded Peters (which unlike the gibberish you're spewing is a legit reason to say "I told you so") and then never start a thread about it.

 

Aren't you one of the guys who has been predicting the Patriots' demise for about 7years? Why don't you start another thread on how much more informed you are than everyone else just to confirm you're the forums best troll instead of worst poster - as of now its unclear. Make sure to throw in a few smiley faces for the clueless trifecta.

Edited August 30, 2013 by BuffOrange

[Orton's Arm]

"Guys like me.."

Enough is enough.."

"Distortions."

 

Its almost as if Im the one starting narcissistic threads, making up straw man arguments & bragging about how I was right about...well, nothing really (its not like the Ravens played most all of last yr without their best CB by a mile).

 

We have archives here. Why don't you show your work one time in your life rather than make outrageously sweeping generalizations.

"Guys like me" defend the lack of tackle drafted for the sake of drafting a tackle in the face of heavy criticism the year we took Wood/Levitre & traded Peters (which unlike the gibberish you're spewing is a legit reason to say "I told you so") and then never start a thread about it.

 

Aren't you one of the guys who has been predicting the Patriots' demise for about 7years? Why don't you start another thread on how much more informed you are than everyone else just to confirm you're the forums best troll instead of worst poster - as of now its unclear. Make sure to throw in a few smiley faces for the clueless trifecta.

 

Overreact much?

 

The OP is a former DB. He seems like he's focused on DB play the way Bill from NYC is focused on offensive line play. If the OL played horribly, I'd expect Bill to point it out. Given that the DBs played very poorly, there's nothing wrong with OCinBuffalo pointing that out.