The "Why drafting DBs is now a must" thread

[OCinBuffalo]

Having just returned from the game, and,

having spent all of it focused on the defensive backfield when the Lions had the ball, and,

having seen our lack of depth, and especially TJ Heath, get beat 10+ times:

 

Those of you who decry drafting CBs and Ss high are literally fooling themselves.

 

We had them...over and over, drive after drive...but for bad DB play. We, and when I say we, I mean 5+ rows/seats in my section, all around me, could see what was going to happen before the snap, 80-90% of the time: the DBs simply failed.

 

Period.

 

Lack of talent is the issue here:

1. Searcy needs to be cut immediately.

2. TJ Heath is not even PS material.(Disclaimer: the Lions picked on him mercilessly. However, he should have been able to make at least 1 play. He did not.) EDIT: He did make one play...sorta. The WR would have had to make a circus catch to haul it in and stay in bounds. Heath made sure he couldn't.

3. Crezdon Butler is a capable player, but only against a #2 or less WR. He broke off his man coverage and tackled a RB for a loss. That alone means he makes this team, almost by default.

4. Dangerfield = cut.

5. Duke Williams was worth the draft pick, but, he is a rookie, and prone to being overly aggressive(see penalty(ies?)).

6. Meeks = solid PS

7. I'd put Kip Edwards on my team before any of the above players.

8. Justin Rogers didn't play enough for me to form a reasonable opinion.

9. I am wasting bits and time talking about Robey in any capacity.

 

People: We cannot play the NFL game with this level of talent at DB. End of story. We need our starters, sure, but, what happens when they get hurt? What happens when we need 4 cover guys on the field at the same time,plus 1 or 2 Ss? I will tell you: this game.

 

Enough is enough. You simply cannot continue to claim that the O lines and D lines are always more important, watch the game tonight, and then call yourself an informed football fan.

Edited August 30, 2013 by OCinBuffalo

[bowery4]

So, "you can never have enough good DBs?" BillinNYC' s head is going to explode.

[Meatloaf Sandwich]

The draft isn't till next year.

[CountryCletus]

Unfortunately, we can't play football on a professional level without a quality quarterback either. The shame of the entire process is that this will not be a one year turn around. The organization has failed with draft choices over and over and over... It is very conceivable that it will take this team another year or two to acquire the talent to become a competitive team. OL and DB will be high on the priority list this next year... I, by no means, am trying to cry doom and gloom as many posters on here are as of late. I feel that our roster has gotten better since last year and things appear to be pointed in the right direction...

[OCinBuffalo]

So, "you can never have enough good DBs?" BillinNYC' s head is going to explode.

That's OK. Bill is certainly capable of putting his head back together after it explodes, but, only after he has dealt with the reality I just observed.

The draft isn't till next year.

Thanks.

Unfortunately, we can't play football on a professional level without a quality quarterback either. The shame of the entire process is that this will not be a one year turn around. The organization has failed with draft choices over and over and over... It is very conceivable that it will take this team another year or two to acquire the talent to become a competitive team. OL and DB will be high on the priority list this next year... I, by no means, am trying to cry doom and gloom as many posters on here are as of late. I feel that our roster has gotten better since last year and things appear to be pointed in the right direction...

I've been to both games at home this year.

 

This team is better by a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong shot that it was last year. Especially given the fact that we are running a D that plays to our strengths(which...is basically WTF you do as a competent D coach, in any sport). We ran base D practically the whole night, blitzed little and left it to our CBs to cover.

 

This was obviously intentional. It's as if they told Heath and Butler: "Only one of you is making the team. Perhaps neither."

 

As I said, I am not worried by our front 7. I am worried about our DBs, and in this league, in this decade, this is problem #2 on Defense. Pass rush, or lack of it, is problem #1.

[Dr. Fong]

The problem isn't that the Bills haven't taken enough DBs, it's that too many I them have been the wrong ones. Lets also not forget that the best two weren't playing. Take the top two off of any team in the league and it would show.

[OCinBuffalo]

The problem isn't that the Bills haven't taken enough DBs, it's that too many I them have been the wrong ones. Lets also not forget that the best two weren't playing. Take the top two off of any team in the league and it would show.

I hear ya, and normally I'd say this is reasonable.

 

Nope.

 

Not today. But for the Lions WRs(who did not include Megatron, so there goes the 1s vs 1s argument) dropping ball after ball? The score is worse.

Against anyone other than a Lions QB who, if he played for the Jets, would be just as hyped, and just as awful, as Sanchez? The score is worse.

 

Edit:

To your other point(sorry):

 

DB is harder and harder to find, because less and less of that body type is playing football. Nevermind the fact that WRs are getting bigger, AND, teams are using 3-4 of them every play. You have to keep drafting DB, and, yes, you are going to miss on more than you hit, which means you have to draft more of them.

 

This is the reality of NFL football in 2013. Tonight is yet another confirmation of this.

Edited August 30, 2013 by OCinBuffalo

[Mango]

There are more DB's on the field than any other position every play. Almost half the field on a given play(5). Every team should be taking a DB in the first 3 rounds every draft. Hating on Nix and Jauron for this was flat out stupid. Hating on Mckelvin is a different story. I do think his contract is pretty friendly for us though.

 

I think most of the anti- DB people are also sky is falling people in the PS. It doesn't mean they wont be wrong, but it for sure doesn't mean they know more than us.

[San-O]

Wait until McLuvin is out there every play, week after week, getting worked. It's going to get ugly quick for this group.

[NickelCity]

Praying for Winfield and Nnamdi to be cut. I've heard of both of them!! (but seriously I would feel much better if we signed both)

 

Looking for more from CBs

 

Posted by Chris Brown on August 30, 2013 – 1:09 am

 

 

Cornerbacks Crezdon Butler and T.J. Heath got a ton of work in Thursday night’s preseason finale against Detroit. With Stephon Gilmore out for the foreseeable future it’s left a prime opportunity for someone among the cornerbacks left to seize the job while Gilmore is out. Head coach Doug Marrone after the Thursday night game is looking for a bit more from the players he had on the field covering receivers.

“I think we’ve got to do a better job in press,” said Marrone. ”Again we’ve got to be up there and contend more of those passes that they’re doing. We’ve got to put them in a position they can get the job done. We do have a lot of tape with them out there. We’ll be able to look at that. Obviously we wanted to look at both of those players to make a decision on where both of them were at. We rested Justin Rogers. We wanted to make sure we knew where those other two players were.”

Sounds like they know what they have in Justin Rogers, and perhaps discovered some very telling information about Butler and Heath in the game. We’ll see how it impacts the cornerback position, which is expected to carry six players including Gilmore.

Edited August 30, 2013 by NickelCity

[billsfan714]

You're right, because J. Bell and Miller and Riddick only averaged over 5 yards a carry against our D. We got probs either way.

[Dibs]

But we have drafted DBs. High and often.

[OCinBuffalo]

Praying for Winfield and Nnamdi to be cut. I've heard of both of them!! (but seriously I would feel much better if we signed both)

Your Chris Brown quote is telling: Marrone is being Marrone, and not throwing his players under the bus.

 

However, I am not Marrone, and I don't have his responsibilities or his considerations.

 

No amount of coaching is going to "put them in position". No. I could get all technical, and explain exactly why they were awful(and make no mistake, I can), or, I can just tell you: these kids can't play this game at this level. They lack the physical talent and the mind-->body that is required.

You're right, because J. Bell and Miller and Riddick only averaged over 5 yards a carry against our D. We got probs either way.

No. The run game was not the issue. The pass game was. Over and over. So many times they got little on runs on 1st and 2nd. So many 3rd downs, as soon as we dropped into zone, and every time we played man, they were killing us. They were killing us because both Butler and Heath were often as much as 5 yards out of position, often right after the snap.

But we have drafted DBs. High and often.

Yes.

 

And it doesn't matter. We have to have 3-4 above average cover guys on this team, at all times. We could have won this game, easily, if we had just 2 above average cover guys on the field.

 

If we hit on the next 3 DBs drafted, then we can look elsewhere. Until then, we cannot afford to pretend this is 1985.

Edited August 30, 2013 by OCinBuffalo

[NickelCity]

OCinBuf - I agree about our corner play. I saw the same things you did. I feel we desperately need some stopgap FAs for this season.

 

No. The run game was not the issue.

 

I thought it was one of several issues. I haven't been excited about our run defense at all this preseason.

 

That said, with some veteran CB stopgaps, and a G, I'll remain hopeful for this season. Can't wait to see what happens.

[OCinBuffalo]

OCinBuf - I agree about our corner play. I saw the same things you did. I feel we desperately need some stopgap FAs for this season.

 

 

 

I thought it was one of several issues. I haven't been excited about our run defense at all this preseason.

 

That said, with some veteran CB stopgaps, and a G, I'll remain hopeful for this season. Can't wait to see what happens.

 

Perhaps, however, on 3rd down, did they run, or pass, to get the 1st?

 

They passed. Almost every time, IIRC. In fact, I'm sitting here with no stats, trying to remember if they ran on ANY 3rd or 2nd and short. I don't remember one.

[Dibs]

Yes.

 

And it doesn't matter. We have to have 3-4 above average cover guys on this team, at all times. We could have won this game, easily, if we had just 2 above average cover guys on the field.

 

If we hit on the next 3 DBs drafted, then we can look elsewhere. Until then, we cannot afford to pretend this is 1985.

 

I feel that you are doing what most people do....and what is natural to do, and that is to overestimate the quality of players on other teams around the league and assume that we are in a horrible state compared to them. Are there any teams with 3 top tier DBs on their roster? If there is there would only be a handful at best. Most teams would be struggling to have a top Safety and a top CB.

 

Assuming Gilmore progresses in ability (as most assume he will) and that Byrd stays (and is healthy), we will have 2 premium DBs on the team. Obtaining another 2-3 decent (but not "good") DBs would then see us being in the upper tier of secondaries. This should be achievable with low 1st round or 2nd/3rd round drafting.....or via FA as teams like the 49ers have done.

 

High 1st round drafting (top 15 pick) of a DB would not be of value when considering the 2 quality DBs we already have and the long term aspects of capanomics.....unless we plan on letting Gilmore move on after his rookie contract.....or we intend to spend an unusually high percent of the cap on the secondary (compared to the rest of the league).

 

 

We certainly need better DBs, but striving for star talent in our #3,4,5 DBs is not a wise long term strategy all things considered IMO.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Dibs

[OCinBuffalo]

I feel that you are doing what most people do....and what is natural to do, and that is to overestimate the quality of players on other teams around the league and assume that we are in a horrible state compared to them. Are there any teams with 3 top tier DBs on their roster? If there is there would only be a handful at best. Most teams would be struggling to have a top Safety and a top CB.

Let me disabuse you of that notion right now:

I was at the game

I was a D1 athlete who played man-to-man and zone defense for 4 years. I know what running in coverage, turning your hips at the right time, backpedaling, cutting, recovering, pressing, etc.....is supposed to look like. I saw little of that tonight.

I have seen other Bills teams, and, I have seen other teams in general, with players at the DB positions do these things properly.

I have coached these things off and on for years.

 

So, no, none of this is "natural", or "estimation" or whatever.

 

This is a trained eye telling you: No F'ing Way, or whatever else is required.

We certainly need better DBs, but striving for star talent in our #3,4,5 DBs is not a wise long term strategy all things considered IMO.

It's far past time to lay this down. Let it go. Whatever you have to do.

 

We need 4 guys who can cover in this league, and that doesn't include safteties. Period. You cannot expect playoffs without them, becasuse we have to assume that at least one of them will be injured. 80% of the teams in this league have a base package with 3 WRs. Or, at the very least 2 TEs and a WR.

 

Safeties need to cover as well. Middle LBs have to be able to cover. See a pattern? If not, let me help: it's about "cover". We've got DEs dropping into coverage now. Is that "wise"? We were smoked 3 times, right in front of me, because we had a LB covering a WR. No chance.

 

I KNOW that if that is a real game, that LB is not on the field. Our 3rd or 4th CB is, or, one of the Ss, now that we are blitzing so often.

 

That's right: our base defense is 3 CBs. That's 3 starters. Last time I checked, it isn't "wise" to be drafting players who are sitting on the bench during the game, as "depth" O line/D line will be, and ignoring the players who will actually be in the game, almost every play.

[Dibs]

Let me disabuse you of that notion right now:

I was at the game

I was a D1 athlete who played man-to-man and zone defense for 4 years. I know what running in coverage, turning your hips at the right time, backpedaling, cutting, recovering, pressing, etc.....is supposed to look like. I saw little of that tonight.

I have seen other Bills teams, and, I have seen other teams in general, with players at the DB positions do these things properly.

I have coached these things off and on for years.

 

So, no, none of this is "natural", or "estimation" or whatever.

 

This is a trained eye telling you: No F'ing Way, or whatever else is required.

 

It's far past time to lay this down. Let it go. Whatever you have to do.

 

Huh?

 

 

.....

We need 4 guys who can cover in this league, and that doesn't include safteties. Period. You cannot expect playoffs without them, becasuse we have to assume that at least one of them will be injured. 80% of the teams in this league have a base package with 3 WRs. Or, at the very least 2 TEs and a WR.

 

Safeties need to cover as well. Middle LBs have to be able to cover. See a pattern? If not, let me help: it's about "cover". We've got DEs dropping into coverage now. Is that "wise"? We were smoked 3 times, right in front of me, because we had a LB covering a WR. No chance.

 

I KNOW that if that is a real game, that LB is not on the field. Our 3rd or 4th CB is, or, one of the Ss, now that we are blitzing so often.

 

That's right: our base defense is 3 CBs. That's 3 starters. Last time I checked, it isn't "wise" to be drafting players who are sitting on the bench during the game, as "depth" O line/D line will be, and ignoring the players who will actually be in the game, almost every play.

 

My point was that I agree that we need better DBs(outside of Byrd/Gilmore)......but it is not feasible to strive for top tier players, just players that as you said, can cover in this league. Therefore spending 1st round (top 15) picks to obtain that calibre of player is perhaps not very good value and that they can be obtained via later picks or via FA.

 

(Not that you ever said that we should spend top 15 picks on obtaining them.....but I assumed that was your inference.)

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Having just returned from the game, and,

having spent all of it focused on the defensive backfield when the Lions had the ball, and,

having seen our lack of depth, and especially TJ Heath, get beat 10+ times:

 

Those of you who decry drafting CBs and Ss high are literally fooling themselves.

 

We had them...over and over, drive after drive...but for bad DB play. We, and when I say we, I mean 5+ rows/seats in my section, all around me, could see what was going to happen before the snap, 80-90% of the time: the DBs simply failed.

 

Period.

 

Lack of talent is the issue here:

1. Searcy needs to be cut immediately.

2. TJ Heath is not even PS material.(Disclaimer: the Lions picked on him mercilessly. However, he should have been able to make at least 1 play. He did not.) EDIT: He did make one play...sorta. The WR would have had to make a circus catch to haul it in and stay in bounds. Heath made sure he couldn't.

3. Crezdon Butler is a capable player, but only against a #2 or less WR. He broke off his man coverage and tackled a RB for a loss. That alone means he makes this team, almost by default.

4. Dangerfield = cut.

5. Duke Williams was worth the draft pick, but, he is a rookie, and prone to being overly aggressive(see penalty(ies?)).

6. Meeks = solid PS

7. I'd put Kip Edwards on my team before any of the above players.

8. Justin Rogers didn't play enough for me to form a reasonable opinion.

9. I am wasting bits and time talking about Robey in any capacity.

 

People: We cannot play the NFL game with this level of talent at DB. End of story. We need our starters, sure, but, what happens when they get hurt? What happens when we need 4 cover guys on the field at the same time,plus 1 or 2 Ss? I will tell you: this game.

 

Enough is enough. You simply cannot continue to claim that the O lines and D lines are always more important, watch the game tonight, and then call yourself an informed football fan.

 

Every year we draft a a CB and the year we switched to an aggressive man cover system we don't draft one . Besides going for Patterson or Auston, I wanted a top CB like Millineer, one of these yrs will get it right.

 

Unfortunately, we can't play football on a professional level without a quality quarterback either. The shame of the entire process is that this will not be a one year turn around. The organization has failed with draft choices over and over and over... It is very conceivable that it will take this team another year or two to acquire the talent to become a competitive team. OL and DB will be high on the priority list this next year... I, by no means, am trying to cry doom and gloom as many posters on here are as of late. I feel that our roster has gotten better since last year and things appear to be pointed in the right direction...

 

[CSBill]

Somewhere in the world, Dick Jauron is smiling.