Is Brandon's plan like the Astros ?

[bowery4]

Astro made some kickass training camp threads, I don't get the problem.

[BADOLBILZ]

2) Ralph Wilson wants to win, Russ Brandon wants to win everybody down to the guy that takes out the trash at One Bills Drive wants to win. Winning fills the seats. Makes contract negotiations easier. Makes free agent signings easier. Makes getting new stadium with more boxes and profit centers easier.

 

You say that Ralph wants to win like that excuses the lack of commitment to doing so.

 

Everyone WANTS to win.

 

When Ralph had good teams he was willing to pay his players the highest salaries in the league. But when he isn't winning on the field, he shifts focus and instead wants to win the net income battle with his fellow owners.

 

One way or another, Ralph is going to get his satisfaction and being that he doesn't know how to build a winning organization this is what you get much more often than not over the past half century.

 

The Bills have missed the real playoffs for 13 straight years, but they are a perennial playoff team in terms of net earnings versus their fellow NFL teams.

 

Before you mistake that for some kind of victory, remember that many of the other owners are trying to win both on the field and gain equity off of it. Ralph's franchise makes money but it isn't keeping pace with the others in terms of value and the losing streak has become an epic embarrassment.

 

This is what you get when you have a mercurial owner. Ralph used to have a lot of company when there were more self-destructive owners and owners with financial struggles but most of those guys have been replaced by shrewd, ambitious businessmen and they have left Ralph in their wake.

[BADOLBILZ]

More likely we have a lot of guys that are going to be FAs next year we would like to retain...

 

I know you are a young guy but I would suggest that you start looking at things more objectively before it hits you like a ton of bricks and you get jaded.

 

The Bills have a way of doing business that makes it difficult to create and sustain success. It's just a fact and it is directly attributable to Ralph.

 

Organizations like the Steelers and Packers have systems in place that work and they stay true to them. The fact that they don't re-sign all of their free agents is one of the very few things they have in common with the Bills.

[BobChalmers]

I'm with you on this.

 

1) MLB is a completely different animal.

2) Ralph Wilson wants to win, Russ Brandon wants to win everybody down to the guy that takes out the trash at One Bills Drive wants to win. Winning fills the seats. Makes contract negotiations easier. Makes free agent signings easier. Makes getting new stadium with more boxes and profit centers easier.

 

There is no conspiracy.

 

 

This

 

If EJ Manuel justifies his pick I think threads like this will cease.

 

I'd argue he already is well on his way.

 

I don't think there are too many Jets fans (or national media morons) willing to say the Bills didn't take the right QB first these days, eh?

[chris heff]

 

Again, I ask, why are the Bills $20M under the cap this year and pushing Fitz's dead money into next year -- it's completely illogical --- sign / retain some players with the cap space they have this year -- if you create the space this year USE IT ---- I don't want to hear next year that they don't have cap space to sign FA's or retain Wood and Spiller ---

Who did you want them to spend the money on?

 

If this is true, then he's one of the biggest failures in the history of professional sports. if you accept the astros model theory, he's been extremely successful.

The Bills won championships in the sixties, were competitive in the late seventies, became fun to watch in the late eighties and dominated the AFC in the early nineties. This past decade plus has been bad, but franchise is not as historically as bad as some. You do realize that the Patriots were very bad for very long. The Packers were bad to mediocre for thirty years. The Saints were bad for forty years. Should I go on?

 

 

 

You say that Ralph wants to win like that excuses the lack of commitment to doing so.

 

Everyone WANTS to win.

 

When Ralph had good teams he was willing to pay his players the highest salaries in the league. But when he isn't winning on the field, he shifts focus and instead wants to win the net income battle with his fellow owners.

 

One way or another, Ralph is going to get his satisfaction and being that he doesn't know how to build a winning organization this is what you get much more often than not over the past half century.

 

The Bills have missed the real playoffs for 13 straight years, but they are a perennial playoff team in terms of net earnings versus their fellow NFL teams.

 

Before you mistake that for some kind of victory, remember that many of the other owners are trying to win both on the field and gain equity off of it. Ralph's franchise makes money but it isn't keeping pace with the others in terms of value and the losing streak has become an epic embarrassment.

 

This is what you get when you have a mercurial owner. Ralph used to have a lot of company when there were more self-destructive owners and owners with financial struggles but most of those guys have been replaced by shrewd, ambitious businessmen and they have left Ralph in their wake.

See above

[CowgirlsFan]

No.

 

For starters, the Astros have the former St. Louis Vice President of Scouting and Player Development, so they reached out to a very good organization to build things from the ground up. Really, the ground up. Like, they decided to hit rock bottom and make things hurt for awhile while acquiring high ceiling talent in the lower ranks. Their intention was not to make money while losing, but to build the organization with shrewd acquisitions and a stronger scouting system.

 

Baseball has a luxury tax that football doesn't have where the poor teams are subsidized by the overspenders. Revenue sharing is entirely different in the NFL. And, you can turn things around more quickly in the NFL by hiring a new coaching staff that can adapt to the talent on hand. MLB rosters are significantly smaller and every piece matters more, so to speak. In baseball you also have different kinds of cost control -- arbitration for everyone as opposed to franchising one guy.

 

Now, granted, the Astros took a lot of money to move to the American League where their lot in life is significantly more difficult. But they moved to the AL West where everyone in direct competition has some deficiencies, save for maybe the Rangers.

 

The basic premise here is let's not base our theories on a single article in Forbes. The situation could not be more different for these two teams.

 

 

Good points and may I add that Nolan Ryan's son Reid is

now team President. Astros may not be as fugal in the coming

years.

[chris heff]

I think I am being misunderstood. I believe Ralph Wilson wants to win, however I also believe he has made a lot of bad decisions over the years. I was disagreeing with the premiss of this thread. I don't believe that the Bills management has the Andy Robustelli mind set, that it is best to just miss the playoffs every year.

[GA BILLS FAN]

Who did you want them to spend the money on?

 

 

The Bills won championships in the sixties, were competitive in the late seventies, became fun to watch in the late eighties and dominated the AFC in the early nineties. This past decade plus has been bad, but franchise is not as historically as bad as some. You do realize that the Patriots were very bad for very long. The Packers were bad to mediocre for thirty years. The Saints were bad for forty years. Should I go on?

 

 

See above

Who did I want them to spend the money on ???? -- a couple options (1) pay Levitre; (2) pay Byrd; (3) extend Wood; (4) extend Spiller --- if you don't think they or any other player is worth spending on --- take the full $10M dead money hit from Fitz in 2013 --- why are you spreading it into 2014 ?? --- there is still not ONE legitimate answer to this question except that the Bills are managing the team to the bottom line financially at the expense of fielding a winning team !!! --

[chris heff]

 

Who did I want them to spend the money on ???? -- a couple options (1) pay Levitre; (2) pay Byrd; (3) extend Wood; (4) extend Spiller --- if you don't think they or any other player is worth spending on --- take the full $10M dead money hit from Fitz in 2013 --- why are you spreading it into 2014 ?? --- there is still not ONE legitimate answer to this question except that the Bills are managing the team to the bottom line financially at the expense of fielding a winning team !!! --

Levitre got over paid. The Bryd situation is not over yet and how do you know what happened there? Or what the Bills offered?

 

How do you know what they are going to do with Spiller and Wood?

[GA BILLS FAN]

Levitre got over paid. The Bryd situation is not over yet and how do you know what happened there? Or what the Bills offered?

 

How do you know what they are going to do with Spiller and Wood?

I don't know what they plan to do (nobody does), but to date, they've done nothing --- but let's assume they do sign them to extensions ---- you still have over $23M in cap space THIS YEAR, why not take the full hit of Fitz's DEAD money now ? --- that still leaves the team over $16M in cap space this year (if a miracle happens and they extend Wood/Spiller) and it also gives you $7M more for next year when you want to troll for some FA's ---- if you want to win consistently in this league you need to manage the cap to enable your team to keep key players and go after select FA's, you don't manage the cap to pad the bottom line ---

 

I don't know what they plan to do (nobody does), but to date, they've done nothing --- but let's assume they do sign them to extensions ---- you still have over $23M in cap space THIS YEAR, why not take the full hit of Fitz's DEAD money now ? --- that still leaves the team over $16M in cap space this year (if a miracle happens and they extend Wood/Spiller) and it also gives you $7M more for next year when you want to troll for some FA's ---- if you want to win consistently in this league you need to manage the cap to enable your team to keep key players and go after select FA's, you don't manage the cap to pad the bottom line ---

Another way to look at this -- any unspent money DOES NOT carryover to the next year -- so, if the Bills under spend by $20M THIS year, that money is GONE and cannot be used NEXT year --- not using the full cap every year is ridiculous

Edited August 27, 2013 by TXBILLSFAN

[chris heff]

 

I don't know what they plan to do (nobody does), but to date, they've done nothing --- but let's assume they do sign them to extensions ---- you still have over $23M in cap space THIS YEAR, why not take the full hit of Fitz's DEAD money now ? --- that still leaves the team over $16M in cap space this year (if a miracle happens and they extend Wood/Spiller) and it also gives you $7M more for next year when you want to troll for some FA's ---- if you want to win consistently in this league you need to manage the cap to enable your team to keep key players and go after select FA's, you don't manage the cap to pad the bottom line ---

 

 

Another way to look at this -- any unspent money DOES NOT carryover to the next year -- so, if the Bills under spend by $20M THIS year, that money is GONE and cannot be used NEXT year --- not using the full cap every year is ridiculous

Have you considered that they had the foresight to keep enough cap space to sign Byrd? You have no idea how those negotiations, or the lack there of went. For all you know Byrd may told Parker that unless the Bills offer a ridiculous sum, I don't want to play there. So when the deadline past what should they have done? Who should they have spent that money on?

 

I will reiterate, you have no idea what their intention is with Spiller and Wood.

Edited August 27, 2013 by chris heff

[NoSaint]

 

Have you considered that they had the foresight to keep enough cap space to sign Byrd? You have no idea how those negotiations, or the lack there of went. For all you know Byrd may told Parker that unless the Bills offer a ridiculous sum, I don't want to play there. So when the deadline past what should they have done? Who should they have spent that money on?

 

I will reiterate, you have no idea what their intention is with Spiller and Wood.

 

you do realize they couldve taken the hit on fitz AND signed byrd, AND signed wood with 23m in cap space, right?

 

as is, unless we spend in a way the league has never seen the next couple weeks we will be waving goodbye to about 20% of a years cap, and pushing another 6% in hits into next year. I dont know how you field a highly competitive team by simply hand over a quarter of a years cap back to the league and saying "no thanks." forget the weather, the taxes, the losing, the whatever.... until this team learns how to get maximum production out of the limited and perishable resource that is the salary cap we may win in short windows but not long term.

Edited August 27, 2013 by NoSaint

[chris heff]

 

 

you do realize they couldve taken the hit on fitz AND signed byrd, AND signed wood with 23m in cap space, right?

 

as is, unless we spend in a way the league has never seen the next couple weeks we will be waving goodbye to about 20% of a years cap, and pushing another 6% in hits into next year. I dont know how you field a highly competitive team by simply hand over a quarter of a years cap back to the league and saying "no thanks." forget the weather, the taxes, the losing, the whatever.... until this team learns how to get maximum production out of the limited and perishable resource that is the salary cap we may win in short windows but not long term.

Ok, so who should they have signed?

[papazoid]

Mario Williams cap hit increases by $6 mil next year:

 

2013: $12,400,000

2014: $18,400,000

 

 

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/mario-williams/

[apuszczalowski]

you do realize they couldve taken the hit on fitz AND signed byrd, AND signed wood with 23m in cap space, right?

 

as is, unless we spend in a way the league has never seen the next couple weeks we will be waving goodbye to about 20% of a years cap, and pushing another 6% in hits into next year. I dont know how you field a highly competitive team by simply hand over a quarter of a years cap back to the league and saying "no thanks." forget the weather, the taxes, the losing, the whatever.... until this team learns how to get maximum production out of the limited and perishable resource that is the salary cap we may win in short windows but not long term.

you do realise that the "Salary Cap" is just a number, its not actual money. NFL teams don't have a bank account with over a hundred million dollars just sitting in it that goes to the players, and if it isn't used it is given to the league as revenue.

 

The Bills can spend up to that Cap with salaries , but they have to have that money to actually spend (or have access to that kind of money to spend it). Maybe they figured that this year they may end up taking a hit in revenue because they are starting a new rebuild with a new coaching staff and it may take some time to build back the fan base to sell out the stadium, so instead of just spending money foolishly and overpay for players just so they can maximise their spending with the cap they thought they would spend what they need to and try not to get into the red this season.

 

They could have overpaid Levitre, and even overpaid for Byrd too, just to make the fans happy for this season, but whats going to happn next season, or the year after when they have these high salaries on their books and need cap room to try and improve? Both those guys wanted high salary long term deals.

 

As for Fitzs "dead money", the cap will more then likely go up again next year, so putting it off until then may just eat up the increase in the cap next season, they still will have the money to spend to make improvements they feel are necessary.

 

But as for the original point about the Astros, they are currently in the middle of a complete franchise overhaul that includes their prospects and minor league systems. Most teams won't do what they are doing because the fans are not patient enough to allow them to do this the right way. In Houston the fans, coaching staff, and everyone associated witht he team have bought into the complete overhaul and want to make this work. They have built a very strong prospect pool and in a few years may end up having one hell of a great team. They aren't the marlins who do it because their owner is cheap and just looking at the financial side of every deal.

[NoSaint]

 

Ok, so who should they have signed?

 

they didnt have to sign anyone (though there were several options). Simply TAKING THE CAP HIT for fitz wouldve been enough for me to say "oh well, they didnt like the guys available or the guys didnt like us."

 

pushing 7m into next year without any plan to spend this year is a huge issue.

 

you do realise that the "Salary Cap" is just a number, its not actual money. NFL teams don't have a bank account with over a hundred million dollars just sitting in it that goes to the players, and if it isn't used it is given to the league as revenue.

 

The Bills can spend up to that Cap with salaries , but they have to have that money to actually spend (or have access to that kind of money to spend it). Maybe they figured that this year they may end up taking a hit in revenue because they are starting a new rebuild with a new coaching staff and it may take some time to build back the fan base to sell out the stadium, so instead of just spending money foolishly and overpay for players just so they can maximise their spending with the cap they thought they would spend what they need to and try not to get into the red this season.

 

They could have overpaid Levitre, and even overpaid for Byrd too, just to make the fans happy for this season, but whats going to happn next season, or the year after when they have these high salaries on their books and need cap room to try and improve? Both those guys wanted high salary long term deals.

 

As for Fitzs "dead money", the cap will more then likely go up again next year, so putting it off until then may just eat up the increase in the cap next season, they still will have the money to spend to make improvements they feel are necessary.

 

But as for the original point about the Astros, they are currently in the middle of a complete franchise overhaul that includes their prospects and minor league systems. Most teams won't do what they are doing because the fans are not patient enough to allow them to do this the right way. In Houston the fans, coaching staff, and everyone associated witht he team have bought into the complete overhaul and want to make this work. They have built a very strong prospect pool and in a few years may end up having one hell of a great team. They aren't the marlins who do it because their owner is cheap and just looking at the financial side of every deal.

 

Obviously they have to pony up real dollars, and if they werent going to you TAKE FITZS HIT THIS YEAR and leave yourself more flexibility next year.

 

even if the cap doubles next year, theres no reason not to take the hit this year unless you are 1) planning on spending this year or 2) planning on not spending next year. They havent shown they are following 1 (still time, but they would have to do a ton), and 2 should infuriate you as a fan.

Edited August 27, 2013 by NoSaint

[indiragandhi'sthong]

Read title ... Said to myself, "post can't possibly be that stupid." I WAS WRONG.

[....lybob]

To win in the NFL you have to increase your overall talent -( FA acquisitions + drafted talent + young players getting better) has to be greater than ( FA losses + losses thru injury and retirement + talent deterioration thru age and injury)

 

The Bills have not been able to get ahead on talent for a long time

 

This year the Bills add talent at QB (potentially), WRs (though neither Wood, Graham or Goodwin strike me as a high quality #1 WR) and LB (Lawson, Alonso and Hughes add speed and athleticism to the LBs)

 

This year the Bills lose talent in the OL (Levitre was a top 5 guard and Chad Rinehart was a quality backup) RB (Fred Jackson ages out)

 

Right now I call it a wash and the Bills treading water- If Manuel turns into star then we will look back at this season as a big win if we need to take another QB in 2014 we will look back at this season as a big loss

[Cash]

they didnt have to sign anyone (though there were several options). Simply TAKING THE CAP HIT for fitz wouldve been enough for me to say "oh well, they didnt like the guys available or the guys didnt like us."

 

pushing 7m into next year without any plan to spend this year is a huge issue.

 

 

 

Obviously they have to pony up real dollars, and if they werent going to you TAKE FITZS HIT THIS YEAR and leave yourself more flexibility next year.

 

even if the cap doubles next year, theres no reason not to take the hit this year unless you are 1) planning on spending this year or 2) planning on not spending next year. They havent shown they are following 1 (still time, but they would have to do a ton), and 2 should infuriate you as a fan.

 

NoSaint, thank you for fighting the good fight in this thread. There are some spectacular leaps of illogic floating around with regards to Fitz's dead money. (And I would also add in Mark Anderson's dead money.) My only hope is that there's some cap rule I've never heard of where teams can absorb next year's dead money into this year's cap at the end of the year or something like that.

[NoSaint]

 

 

NoSaint, thank you for fighting the good fight in this thread. There are some spectacular leaps of illogic floating around with regards to Fitz's dead money. (And I would also add in Mark Anderson's dead money.) My only hope is that there's some cap rule I've never heard of where teams can absorb next year's dead money into this year's cap at the end of the year or something like that.

 

ive been trying to be patient since mentioning the issue in the spring, and see what kind of plan they have for the money but at this point its looking extremely difficult to even formulate a way to use that cap space. unless they have big extensions lined up and plan on using roster bonuses and salary for those to hit this year instead of signing bonuses that will eat up future years....

 

id love to hear that a rule exists to fix this down the line but until i do - and after months of bringing up the point the rule hasnt been pointed out - its an issue deserves to be hammered home. theres not a ton that i think the fans "deserve to know" but i think that something like this does deserve an answer. hopefully someone can either point out something obvious im missing, or one of the local media that reads this board can ask the team.

Edited August 27, 2013 by NoSaint