Negativity

[Wayne Cubed]

Well, seeing Kolb get sacked with his back to the line of scrimmage was interesting. The 3rd game is the game that is supposed to be most "like a real game" of the 4, right?

 

I think historically thats been the case. But I'm not so sure anymore. Look at Green Bay, yes it's a completely different team, I realize, Aaron Rodgers played 1 series.

 

Then look at the game yesterday. The Redskins had 2 of their top QB's sitting out, which won't be the case in the regular season. So how can that game be "like a real game." It can't be.

[Sisyphean Bills]

It's all preseason and it's all equally worthless

 

If you mean worthless as the games don't count, well, I think we all got a grasp of that. If you mean worthless as there is no reason to throw a brick through the TV or cry your eyes out, well, yeah.

 

If you mean worthless as far as evaluating players and how they perform under adverse situations, then, well, you are wrong. That is exactly what this game was all about. And, like the thread title, there is going to be a little "negativity" in the coaches meetings watching that tape.

 

I think historically thats been the case. But I'm not so sure anymore. Look at Green Bay, yes it's a completely different team, I realize, Aaron Rodgers played 1 series.

 

Then look at the game yesterday. The Redskins had 2 of their top QB's sitting out, which won't be the case in the regular season. So how can that game be "like a real game." It can't be.

I forgot the smiley. Yes, it is historically, but like you said, hard to say in that game. But, Kolb's performance was dreadful and ended with a concussion... seemed to be "just like a real game" in a sad sense... fitting for a thread titled "negativity". Bring in the next ex-Cardinals scrub, I guess. <sigh>

[K-9]

Detroit will be a very good test for the Bills, BTW.

 

They have an excellent front 7 and they have been a very talented and underachieving group.

 

They're hoping to change the underachieving part.

 

For a series or two, anyway.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Matt in KC]

I am a homer. I think we're going to turn it around every year. I don't care how many bad years in a row. Yes it is very frustrating, not being a fan of a competitive team. But I don't care. I think it's just as rational to have hope that thing we were missing just might come to us one year. Maybe it's EJ. So I'm going to put my faith in him. I don't have to, I prefer to look at it this way instead.

I couldn't agree more. Enough so that I added this to my sig.

[Ronin]

It is preseason .... sky is falling .... no-fun crowd is no fun .... shut up ... why are you here ... blah blah .... why watch the Bills if that is your attitude ... you are wrong these guys will play better ... coaches put players in difficult spots on purpose in preseason .... etc etc ... (there--we got that out of the way).

 

The bottom line that any rational Bills fan should understand (and I do believe Bills FANS should be able to be rational on this board) is that nobody in their right mind should believe this defense will be good until they see it at this point. Defensive line doesn't play the way it looks on paper consistently. LB crew is terrible. And DBs are barely a notch better than LBs.

 

Additionally, we have no QB at this point other than the hope that EJ will get it done. There is a strong likelihood that between the offensive line, QB situation, and WR corp....that offense will be inconsistent at best, if healthy, and terrible if even a few injuries happen.

 

IF....EJ ends up being awesome....we may be able to do something. IF that happens...we probably win 9 games (looking at the schedule now) and end up missing the playoffs. That would be an amazing season and I would love it if that became reality. But the best case scenario never becomes reality.

 

So what is the point of this topic? No point. Other than to just say that all signs point to another 5-7 win season ... which is fine b/c nobody on this board is here b/c we are front runners. But all in all ... it is time to get our heads straight since the season is about to start. No sky is falling threads once the season actually starts b/c we all know what is coming deep down. Unless EJ lifts us to the heavens (which will almost definitely not happen based on his college career) ... it is the sameoldbills.

 

Go Bills. Lets enjoy the season, and be happy to root for this average at best team yet again.

 

PS: Preseason means nothing ... but the players you know you have do.

 

OK, now for that dose of reality.

 

 

The bottom line that any rational Bills fan should understand (and I do believe Bills FANS should be able to be rational on this board) is that nobody in their right mind should believe this defense will be good until they see it at this point. Defensive line doesn't play the way it looks on paper consistently. LB crew is terrible. And DBs are barely a notch better than LBs.

 

Who are the ones being rational? Irrational?

 

Seems to me that anyone that believes that this team will have anymore than 4/5 wins is not being rational.

 

But here's the thing, the team's units, forget W's/L's, needs to perform better than the units of the last loser of a coach we had, and for whom some of us here, the "irrational ones" apparently, called a spade a spade and said that Gailey wasn't a good coach and winner when he was hired. Yet, he had even better credentials, college or NFL, than the current cast.

 

But again, here's the thing, there is in fact cause for alarm if Marrone/Hackett/Pettine don't have things running better than they were last year, on both sides as well as on special teams.

 

We've all been treated and "educated" by the "rational" types here as to how nothing could possibly be as bad as it was under the last loser.

 

So what would it mean if it is, and if preseason has any meaning whatsoever in terms of 1st-team play, it very well could be?

 

We can't say that they need time because they have more talent than the team had last season with a Draft having produced all of these budding superstars that Whaley's responsible for. Our only relevant loss was one OG, not even a OT.

 

Spiller's in his second season after his first good one and that experience under his belt which also makes for better talent.

 

Manuel really can't be as bad or futile as Fitzpatrick even if he struggles, or so we've been told.

 

Either way, on paper this team is better. The "rational" people here have all preached how Marrone & Co. are better too, which if true shouldn't take a lot of time to prove.

 

IF....EJ ends up being awesome....we may be able to do something. IF that happens...we probably win 9 games (looking at the schedule now) and end up missing the playoffs. That would be an amazing season and I would love it if that became reality. But the best case scenario never becomes reality.

 

And IF the coaching staff really knows what it's doing and can get production from mere "schemes" and systems rather than actual talent as everyone here seems to believe that they can simply because they've said so. Not that the more "irrational" of us recollects ever having been sold a bill-of-goods as Bills fans or anything.

 

Otherwise, with this D which right now seemngly isn't even playing close to how last season's D was, even if Manuel has a great rookie season they'll be lucky to win 8 games against the schedule that they have. Again, rationality suggests maybe 6 wins tops.

 

So what is the point of this topic? No point. Other than to just say that all signs point to another 5-7 win season ... which is fine b/c nobody on this board is here b/c we are front runners. But all in all ... it is time to get our heads straight since the season is about to start. No sky is falling threads once the season actually starts b/c we all know what is coming deep down. Unless EJ lifts us to the heavens (which will almost definitely not happen based on his college career) ... it is the sameoldbills.

 

Go Bills. Lets enjoy the season, and be happy to root for this average at best team yet again.

 

The point should be to determine whether we finally have a good coaching staff and as the "rational" ones here insist is true for that reason, or whether once again we've all been sold a bill-of-goods by the FO, because once again people that will say anything to get us all hooked have insisted that "this time it's different." I've enjoyed watching high school football games more than I have the Bills in recent seasons. I've enjoyed watching NFL teams that I'm not a fan of more simply appreciative of good solid fundamental football, something we haven't seen in years in Buffalo.

 

It's difficult to enjoy watching the Bills play football the way that they've played over the last bunch of years. If they play the way that they have this preseason they'll be lucky to win 4 games and will be entirely unenjoyable to watch.

 

Why any such discussion is precluded from the arena of "rationality" is odd.

 

We'll see how much different the regular season is than the preseason, but if one thing should automatically have been upgraded it's the D which enters with no less talent after having lost only Barnett, whom all but everyone here says wasn't any significant loss, and Wilson, even more so, but with the gain of the new and improved replacements, Alonso and Lawson.

 

If that D is worse, then it's far from too soon to begin the criticism of this coaching staff. Let's not forget, it's the "rational" ones lecturing us all on how any stooge could get more from this D and how badly Gailey and a formerly completely unknown and still unqualified Defensive Coordinator ran it.

 

As a part of that rationale, if this crew cannot do better, immediately given Pettine's experience, then I dare say Houston, we have a problem.

 

As I've always said, the outcome of preseason games is meaningless, but what is not meaningless is the invidiual play of all but entirely proven players of which this team has few. Me being "irrational" of course.

 

I'm just wondering at what point the more "rational" among us will be calling a spade a spade if that's the way it manifests itself and otherwise for how long they'll defend the indefensible. Surely the more "irrational" among us will admit success if it comes. We'll have no choice and that's what we all want anyway despite lectures from the more "rational" ones.

 

There's nothing worse than realizing that once again you've been sold a bill-of-goods and that you've got at least three more seasons to deal with it, if you're lucky that is.

Edited August 25, 2013 by TaskersGhost

[Matt in KC]

<snip> I'm just wondering at what point the more "rational" among us will be calling a spade a spade if that's the way it manifests itself and otherwise for how long they'll defend the indefensible. Surely the more "irrational" among us will admit success if it comes. We'll have no choice and that's what we all want anyway despite lectures from the more "rational" ones.

 

There's nothing worse than realizing that once again you've been sold a bill-of-goods and that you've got at least three more seasons to deal with it, if you're lucky that is.

All because they lost a pre-season game without their starting QB/s to a good team? Or maybe we should call it losing a pre-season game to a good team. Yes, they looked bad. They also looked very good recently. It sounds like they are performing in PS like almost every other team in the league.

[Rockinon]

Negativity breeds more negativity. Next thing you know, you are wallowing in it. I think I'm going to just forget about this one and move on. It's one game in preseason and we have a whole regular season ahead. I hope the team is feeling the same way because negativity has no place in this game.

[Ronin]

By the way, it's hardly rational to preordain a coaching staff as being better much less even great without any evidence at all and with what limited evidence has already come in suggesting that perhaps they too won't be what we hope.

 

Irrational is to have these hopes, defend those that made those decisions, and then call for their heads if and after things don't work out as such.

 

Those defending the hire of Marrone are no better or more rational than those making the decision if they too fail here.

 

I gotta say, who on earth is unimpressed with the play of a 1st-team D that has allowed the equivalent of well over 400 net yards per game during the limited time that they've been on the field and largely to backup QBs and no-name RBs? Are hopes for a D playing better during the regular season rational?

 

I don't think so, so why try to turn the rationality or irrationality of things on its head?

 

And why is it irrational to simply discuss real issues with a significant basis underlying them?

 

I don't get it. Rationality says that a team that has never won anymore than a wild-card game against a divisional rival outside the Polian era isn't likely to do it given the current circumstances and that the burden of proof is on the team and coaches to prove differently, not for us to once again buy into their decisions without questioning them and rendering support for what could very well be yet the next in a long string of failures.

 

If that's so, then why is it all but anathema to discuss those things?

 

Food for thought.

 

All because they lost a pre-season game without their starting QB/s to a good team? Or maybe we should call it losing a pre-season game to a good team. Yes, they looked bad. They also looked very good recently. It sounds like they are performing in PS like almost every other team in the league.

 

Did you actually read and try to comprehend what I wrote?

 

It doesn't seem so.

 

Negativity breeds more negativity. Next thing you know, you are wallowing in it. I think I'm going to just forget about this one and move on. It's one game in preseason and we have a whole regular season ahead. I hope the team is feeling the same way because negativity has no place in this game.

 

So what, you can't discuss the team's issues without emotionally caving like a woman, or what?

 

Seriously, I'm not trying to incite you here, but what, really, you are incapable of discussing real demonstrable issues with the play of the team to the extent that you deem it rational only to stick your head in the sand to ignore them with absolutely nothing more than simple hopes that they're unfounded?

 

Is that it, do I understand you correctly?

 

Not sure where you work, but when a significant issue arises do you tell your seniors and all of your co-workers not to worry about it because negativity breeds more negativity? Or do you take it for what it is after discussion and rational intellectual treatment and deal with it straight on?

 

How about your homelife? Speaking generically, what, someone's spouse comes to them with a significant issue and they say not to worry about it because thinking about it in that way will only breed more negativity?

 

So ignorance is bliss in essence, would it be fair to sum your position up as such?

 

If all we're going to do here is dicuss the pie-in-the-sky aspects of the team, meaning largely promises made but hardly on track to be kept, while disallowing real discussion of anything else, what's the point of having a forum?

Edited August 25, 2013 by TaskersGhost

[thewildrabbit]

I have a different theory. The quick pace offense has some inherit strengths and weaknesses. The major risk with that fast paced offense is that if you don't get enough first downs, and have too many three and out series, you are putting your defense in jeopardy by having them too exhausted. I don't have the stats on hand but I'm sure that the Skins ran a lot more plays than the Bills. The major differential in plays can make a difference on performance.

I agree! That quick pace is what screwed Gailey and his sorta same short throws / quick passing style offense, and forced the defense to stay on the field far to long during games.

 

The remedy would have been to build a "power" running attack to counter the loss of productivity in the quick / short passing game. Contrary to Marrone previously stating tho, that the Bills would be able to run the ball during games when needed, they didn't or couldn't as the Bills couldn't run the ball well either.

 

Bills only 8 first downs, 3 rushing, 2 passing, 3 penalty is horrid, VS 27 first downs by the Skins with the 3rd & 4th string QB's, and mostly the back up RB.

 

Buffalo total net yards 155 to Washington's 452. Total plays Bills 49, Skins 81. Time of possession Bills 21:08- 38.52

 

The Bills 92 yards rushing @ 3.5 avg vs Skins 4.8 avg per rush @ 208 yards rushing. Passing was even more abysmal for Buffalo in only 63 total yards passing vs 244 for the Skins.

 

 

 

The Bills couldn't pass or run the ball with any consistency, and was dominated on both sides of the ball at the LoS. This team looked like the exact same thing we have seen at times under Gailey the last 3 seasons. The Redskin backups mostly outplayed the Buffalo Bills starters and backups. The Redskins had the 28th ranked defense last year in yards allowed, #22 in points allowed. So, not a really dominating defense overall from what I can see. The Redskins starting QB didn't even play, and the skins 2nd string QB was also out the entire game.

 

Then what happened to the Buffalo Bills in this game? Pro football players out of gas from a tough training camp? Unprepared or simply didn't game plan for the Redskins? What the Bills got was a taste of what they gave out in the first two pre season games. That is, against a very aggressive blitzing defense, and in the 2nd half, an offense they were unprepared for as the Skins running the triple option (read option) offense they haven't faced very often. The loss of one CB / safety shouldn't make or break the entire defense.

 

Even if EJ is the answer at QB, he can't pass block, or open holes for the RB. He can't rush the opposing passer or stop the run. Was this game an aberration or the reality? Time will tell.

[hondo in seattle]

I have a different theory. The quick pace offense has some inherit strengths and weaknesses. The major risk with that fast paced offense is that if you don't get enough first downs, and have too many three and out series, you are putting your defense in jeopardy by having them too exhausted. I don't have the stats on hand but I'm sure that the Skins ran a lot more plays than the Bills. The major differential in plays can make a difference on performance.

 

This has been discussed in other threads.

 

The old K-Gun often acted in a hurry-up mode. Then again, that offense had Hall-of-Famers on it: Kelly, Thomas, Lofton and - hopefully - Reed. With all that talent, it was likely to get first downs.

 

I wonder how wise it is to run a up-tempo offense with much less talent. It's going to produce a lot of 3-and-outs. I really hope Pettine and the Bills staff are working hard on the conditioning of the defensive unit, because they're going to be on the field a lot.

[tipopticxe]

Games like this are supposed to happen in the preseason. Look at how badly the patsies got beat up by the lions the other day.

[yungmack]

I was optimistic after reading some of the hype put out by the Bills and by those who watched them at camp. That all evaporated.

 

Hated the drafting of Graham. Hate it more, now.

 

Very disappointed in how Alonso looks so far.

 

Wondering if Hughes will turn into Maybin 2.0

 

Wannstedt was not the problem. He played vanilla because vanilla looks like it may have been the best optiin.

 

How can a team go so many seasons without an excellent linebacker?

 

How many players would hurt this team if they got hurt? Spiller has a decent backup and RB is the most overrated position on the field.Having a great RB means nothing in the standings.

 

Gilmore would hurt. Maybe a couple guys on the D line. SJ. EJ, even though we have no idea what he is.

 

All that said, they have an outside chance at .500 because the NFL is a game of attrition, so if you get luckier than the other guy with injuries you can still compete.

Seriously?

[billsfan714]

I love the line of the poster who wrote them maybe we should call this site Buffalo Bills rainbows and lollipops. Never understood people who dont think that we as fans should questions moves and decisions this team makes and just spend our time offering praise for everything they do. Eventually the rainbows fade and you have to start believing your lying eyes. A few things that concern me:

1. Getting shredded by the 3rd and 4th string QBs of the Skins.

2. Not stopping the run. This horror movie has run year after year in Buffalo. Seems like a pretty fundamental aspect of the game if you want to be a good team. People are responsible this includes the DL, including fan favorite Kylie Williams and its time to stop making excuses for Dareus. People have to get penetration and linebackers have to fill. Enjoy part 20 this year against the Pats starring Ridley, co-starring Vereen and Blount taking the place of BJGE and Danny Woodhead.

3. Ive always questioned the talent evaluators in the front office, never had faith in Nix and never tried to spin and twist rationality into a pretzel to justify his decisions, including Spiller, passing on local boys like Gronk and Williams, taking Troup and Williams, etc. Going into camp with just 3 QBs, a rookie, a UDFA and the other an injury prone underachiever who now seems Austin Collieesque as a concussion waiting to happen.

4. I question anyone who has watched preseason to tell me TJack is not miles better than Kolb. Yet somehow our football professionals cut him loose for Kolb.

5. No first downs for a half? Sorry alarm bells in my mind. We not talking points were talking a simple first down.

6. A secondary, that we constantly invest picks into without much results.

 

And dont question my fandom. I plunk down my money for Sunday ticket and root for them every Sunday. I live out of state, I wear the gear and take plenty of trash talk from friends, I just dont defend incompetance. I live among Steeler fans and can see what a well run organization looks like and know that playoffs and superbowls can be attained, they are not mythical unicorns, yes they exist.

 

It's a new era with Marrone and Whaley at the helm. I hope with ever fiber that they succeeed, but if results dont materialize then somebody is responsible and everybody should call a spade a spade.

Edited August 25, 2013 by billsfan714

[yungmack]

For the second game in a row, Tuel was inept running the hurry up. He & the team looked confused & unsure. He took too long getting the plays off & seemed jumpy running things. Reminded me of the horrible milling around the Bills did when they tried this with Edwards. I think they'll have to run a traditional huddle up offense if Tuel starts

[bisonbrigade]

I would love the Bills to have a winning record as much as anyone else, and I believe it's possible, but this year is more about getting EJ to play and get some expreience. By the end of the year if he is looking great that's all you can really ask.

[Buftex]

Which points are ridiculous? If you want to make a sweeping declaration you could at least offer up something specific. I believe everything I posted in that comment. Refute whatever you think is ridiculous.

 

Perhaps you believe that RB is incredibly important and you could point out how the best teams depend on great running backs. That was true before the NFL became a pass first and run as an afterthought business.

 

Great running backs don't equal success. Great quarterbacks do. Having a great D matters, especially a great pass rush. The Giants have demonstrated that repeatedly.

 

Or maybe you believe taking Graham was a good pick.

 

Or maybe you think Posluszny was a great linebacker.

I think Kiko Alonso has looked pretty good so far

[brucethomas34]

If the team doesn't make the playoffs in the next 3-5 years they should just move...

[ajzepp]

As with any NFL team it comes down to the QB. If Manuel develops into a good QB the Bills will be fine and on an upward path. If he turns out to be another in a long line of scrubs the Bills have placed behind center they will continue to wallow in the lower tiers of the league.

 

It's not any more difficult to understand than that.

 

Shut yo mouth, Gumby.

 

I think Kiko Alonso has looked pretty good so far

 

Kiko had a play yesterday where he cleanly stood up Helu as he was coming up the middle. I've have been hearing people say that Kiko doesn't look as big as he actually is, and this play proved it to me. Helu was running at will on us on most of his carries, but not on this one.

[3rdand12]

having read through this comparison of how Bills fans deal with Pre Season frustration i at not surprised at the arguments

For and Against .

my Dad often told me i overthink things. Probably right . But i can see a pinch of that here.

 

In my overthinking , i would like to believe Coach Marrone ran a game plan . to evaluate personnel . His first ups.

 

He gave them no advantages , ala Wannstache . I think he did the same with offense . Tested the wherewithal, endurance and fortitude . He is still pushing them. And not just physically but mentally . Sure they are tired. he knows that. Sure they are starting to get beat on the field he may have well expected it .

They did reduce penalties a bit. while under a lot of pressure , and they did not give up . sure lots of confusion and did not present well .

 

Isnt this what Marrone has nearly preached. How will they deal with adversity , losing getting a beat ing by a much more physical team up front on both sides of the ball.

the overthinker in me thinks he allowed this at some point in the game . not quitting certainly but not coaching for the win this time.

and checking the vets . Who is going to give 110 when its ugly.

The Lions game is now interestinger then before . Another big physical front to work with.

I am still Go Bills. we set one preseason win record back to the 90s and i was of course hoping to get that other one knocked off from the sixties.

Maybe its easier to be Go Bills. maybe for some not so much. but we are all Bills fans eh?

 

Shut yo mouth, Gumby.

 

 

 

Kiko had a play yesterday where he cleanly stood up Helu as he was coming up the middle. I've have been hearing people say that Kiko doesn't look as big as he actually is, and this play proved it to me. Helu was running at will on us on most of his carries, but not on this one.

This kid has promise . still needs work of course with play calling and the stack and shed stuff . but he is a bright spot for sure

[BillsFanNC]

If only this team had a proven track record over the last 13 seasons to give us just a little clue as to how this season will end.