BB27 Posted January 14, 2005 Posted January 14, 2005 I'm just happy that we have an ideal distance from a star for carbon and other elements to coexist in a stable fashion, a fortuitous orbit around said star providing cyclic changes, and a moon of the right size and gravitational pull to keep this planet from wild rotational axis swings, enough vulcanism to keep the atmosphere and oceans in a regenerative state, and so on. I guess that's coincidence. 205930[/snapback] Another interesting factoid: The moon is slowly moving away from the earth! Many years from now, (Millions), the moon will be locked for some time in the same rotation as the earth. What does that mean? Well, only half the world will ever see the moon. Imagine your kids not know what the moon looks like, except from pictures. Imagine having to go on vacation to the other side of the earth to see the moon!
ch19079 Posted January 14, 2005 Posted January 14, 2005 I'm just happy that we have an ideal distance from a star for carbon and other elements to coexist in a stable fashion, a fortuitous orbit around said star providing cyclic changes, and a moon of the right size and gravitational pull to keep this planet from wild rotational axis swings, enough vulcanism to keep the atmosphere and oceans in a regenerative state, and so on. I guess that's coincidence. 205930[/snapback] think about how many stars there are, and how man planets there are. statisticaly there has to be a planet out there with similar conditions to earth, in terms of distance from the sun and such. im still trying to figure out why religious people (no offense), believe that god created people here on earth but would not do the same on other similar planets.... not to change the subject completly around to talk about religin... but.....
MadBuffaloDisease Posted January 14, 2005 Posted January 14, 2005 think about how many stars there are, and how man planets there are. statisticaly there has to be a planet out there with similar conditions to earth, in terms of distance from the sun and such. im still trying to figure out why religious people (no offense), believe that god created people here on earth but would not do the same on other similar planets.... not to change the subject completly around to talk about religin... but..... It's beause the Bible says so. That's all I'll say further on the subject.
BB27 Posted January 14, 2005 Posted January 14, 2005 When I was growing up, I remember going to Nativity in Orchard Park (Catholic Elementary School) they basically taught us that Dinosaurs and such never existed! When you asked, "what about the dinosaurs?" They would tell you, some things are not to be asked from God. Or, my favorite, "God put the bones in the earth to test your faith." What a bunch of BS.
stuckincincy Posted January 14, 2005 Posted January 14, 2005 im still trying to figure out why religious people (no offense), believe that god created people here on earth but would not do the same on other similar planets.... not to change the subject completly around to talk about religin... but..... 206021[/snapback] I can't speak for all planets and existences (amazingly, there are Pats fans - explain that!), but in general, most religious people don't limit God to our little blue-green bubble.. This argument precedes you and I by a long time - and far greater minds than you or I have contested it this way and that - so all I can say is make your own choice. It more or less comes down to having faith in something beyond one's comprehension, and a hope that beyond our existence there is a reason for being, a reason why the brutal survival-of-the-fittest theory of evolution seems to not work so cuttingly with humans. We care for each other, at least most of us do...
TheMadCap Posted January 14, 2005 Posted January 14, 2005 think about how many stars there are, and how man planets there are. statisticaly there has to be a planet out there with similar conditions to earth, in terms of distance from the sun and such. im still trying to figure out why religious people (no offense), believe that god created people here on earth but would not do the same on other similar planets.... not to change the subject completly around to talk about religin... but..... 206021[/snapback] Check out Cosmos by Carl Sagan. Some of you may find it interesting. There is an episode that talks alot about this question. Sagan talks about an equation that predicts the probablility of life elswhere. I looked it up and it states: The mathematical probability that extraterrestrial life exists and will attempt to communicate with Earth was expressed by Frank Drake: The probability = (the probability that a given star system has planets) x (the number of habitable planets among those planets) x (the probability that life evolved on those planets) x (the probability that intelligence developed among planets with life) x (the probability that an intelligent species will attempt interstellar communication within five billion years after the formation of its planet). The problem with the Drake equation, of course, is that many of the variables are unknown, so that, depending on the numbers you plug in, the results can vary widely. Check the ESA page out below, it gets much less traffic than the JPL site: http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygen...BQO71Y3E_1.html Anyway, I remember the number of planets predicted by this equation was surprisingly small, around 4 or 5 IIRC. I'll look it up and get back to you.
JP-era Posted January 14, 2005 Posted January 14, 2005 It may look like "scientists milling about" to the lay person...but in the scientific world, that's called "research". 205412[/snapback] umm i work in research and the scientists mill around while the techs do the thinking and the work!
AJ1 Posted January 14, 2005 Posted January 14, 2005 Check out Cosmos by Carl Sagan. Some of you may find it interesting. There is an episode that talks alot about this question. Sagan talks about an equation that predicts the probablility of life elswhere. I looked it up and it states: The mathematical probability that extraterrestrial life exists and will attempt to communicate with Earth was expressed by Frank Drake: The probability = (the probability that a given star system has planets) x (the number of habitable planets among those planets) x (the probability that life evolved on those planets) x (the probability that intelligence developed among planets with life) x (the probability that an intelligent species will attempt interstellar communication within five billion years after the formation of its planet). The problem with the Drake equation, of course, is that many of the variables are unknown, so that, depending on the numbers you plug in, the results can vary widely. Check the ESA page out below, it gets much less traffic than the JPL site: http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygen...BQO71Y3E_1.html Anyway, I remember the number of planets predicted by this equation was surprisingly small, around 4 or 5 IIRC. I'll look it up and get back to you. 206064[/snapback] Actually, I remember Sagan's interpretation of the Drake equation yielded several thousand intelligent beings occupied planets in our galaxy alone. About 5 years ago, two scientists came out with a book (Rare Earth) which disputes the parameters of the standard Drake equation. Their conclusion was that while life might be fairly aboundant throughout the universe, INTELLIGENT life could be extremely rare...one intelligent race per galaxy per every 100,000 years or so. I recommend the book.
JP-era Posted January 14, 2005 Posted January 14, 2005 Actually, I remember Sagan's interpretation of the Drake equation yielded several thousand intelligent beings occupied planets in our galaxy alone. About 5 years ago, two scientists came out with a book (Rare Earth) which disputes the parameters of the standard Drake equation. Their conclusion was that while life might be fairly aboundant throughout the universe, INTELLIGENT life could be extremely rare...one intelligent race per galaxy per every 100,000 years or so. I recommend the book. 206122[/snapback] 3 points, thats all, just 3 points. 1) anyone who thinks that there is no intelligent life anywhere else than Earth is unbelievably ego-centric 2) Anyone who thinks that intelligent life has never visted this planet is pretty foolish 3) Anyone who thinks that the intelligent life, if hostile, would not have wiped us out a long time ago, is also very foolish those 3 simple points put us in pretty good shape as far as NOT being on the "aliens without a planet" hit list!
Terry Tate Posted January 14, 2005 Posted January 14, 2005 INTELLIGENT life could be extremely rare...206122[/snapback] Proven here every day.
Berg Posted January 15, 2005 Posted January 15, 2005 Another interesting factoid: The moon is slowly moving away from the earth! Many years from now, (Millions), the moon will be locked for some time in the same rotation as the earth. What does that mean? Well, only half the world will ever see the moon. Imagine your kids not know what the moon looks like, except from pictures. Imagine having to go on vacation to the other side of the earth to see the moon! 206019[/snapback] Since the Moon is the primary reason the Earth's tilt remains basically steady at ~23degrees, and that is what keeps our weather patterns stable from a geocentric point of view, when the Moon does move that far away from the Earth, people will have much bigger problems than where they can see the Moon.
Berg Posted January 15, 2005 Posted January 15, 2005 3 points, thats all, just 3 points. 1) anyone who thinks that there is no intelligent life anywhere else than Earth is unbelievably ego-centric 2) Anyone who thinks that intelligent life has never visted this planet is pretty foolish 3) Anyone who thinks that the intelligent life, if hostile, would not have wiped us out a long time ago, is also very foolish those 3 simple points put us in pretty good shape as far as NOT being on the "aliens without a planet" hit list! 206124[/snapback] 1. Agreed, although I'd expand it to include those civilizations that are now long extinct. 2. Don't agree. We are in the "boonies" so to speak of the Milky Way Galaxy, so it is not inconceivable that we haven't been visited. 3. Not really sure what you mean by this one.
MadBuffaloDisease Posted January 15, 2005 Posted January 15, 2005 3. Not really sure what you mean by this one. He's saying that if the intelligent life that possibly visited earth was hostile, they would have wiped us out a long time ago. IOW the intelligent life that has visited us was NOT hostile.
Berg Posted January 15, 2005 Posted January 15, 2005 He's saying that if the intelligent life that possibly visited earth was hostile, they would have wiped us out a long time ago. IOW the intelligent life that has visited us was NOT hostile. 206238[/snapback] Oh. Ok thanks. I guess that makes sense, unless they're trying to infiltrate from within...
MadBuffaloDisease Posted January 15, 2005 Posted January 15, 2005 Oh. Ok thanks. I guess that makes sense, unless they're trying to infiltrate from within... No. That's not their plan. Really it isn't. Just drop the subject.
goober Posted January 15, 2005 Posted January 15, 2005 It's beause the Bible says so. That's all I'll say further on the subject. 206027[/snapback] were you the debate champ at your catholic high school
OGTEleven Posted January 15, 2005 Posted January 15, 2005 3 points, thats all, just 3 points. 1) anyone who thinks that there is no intelligent life anywhere else than Earth is unbelievably ego-centric 2) Anyone who thinks that intelligent life has never visted this planet is pretty foolish 3) Anyone who thinks that the intelligent life, if hostile, would not have wiped us out a long time ago, is also very foolish those 3 simple points put us in pretty good shape as far as NOT being on the "aliens without a planet" hit list! 206124[/snapback] One at a time: 1. While I agree with you that intelligent life is likely out there, I don't think you would have to be ego-centric to disagree. The odds are not calcuable since we do not know all of the factors contributing to life and/or intelligence. Anyone who thinks they know the answer (either way) is ego centric. 2. Why? We don't know everything about space travel or the properties of the universe. Why is it foolish to think that negotiating hundreds (at least) of light years is something that has not been achieved? We know the task is probably thousands of years out of our grasp (at best). Maybe we've been visited, maybe we haven't, but someone doubting it is not foolish. 3. If conditions 1 and 2 are met then maybe.
BB27 Posted January 15, 2005 Posted January 15, 2005 3 points, thats all, just 3 points. 1) anyone who thinks that there is no intelligent life anywhere else than Earth is unbelievably ego-centric 2) Anyone who thinks that intelligent life has never visted this planet is pretty foolish 3) Anyone who thinks that the intelligent life, if hostile, would not have wiped us out a long time ago, is also very foolish those 3 simple points put us in pretty good shape as far as NOT being on the "aliens without a planet" hit list! 206124[/snapback] I agree it would be foolish to think that there is no other life out there. Oddly enough, I bet it is more similar to life that is now, or once was on this very planet we live on. (Life is life, the same properties that make up the earth, our solar system, etc. are the same way out there, so therefore, it might be more like looking in a mirror than you think.) As far as inteligent life visiting us, little green men and all, I'm not so sure. We have a fairly good grasp on physics, and traveling thousands of light years is not that easy (physics is physics irregardless of what planet your on). Even if you could travel the distance, you would be thousands of light years old when you got there, and when you finally made it back, who know if the earth would even still exist. We are talking about a really long time you know. When you look up into the sky at night, the light you see coming from all those stars is actually quite old. A star might explode today, a long ways away, but you wouldn't know about it for quite a long time (years).
JP-era Posted January 15, 2005 Posted January 15, 2005 One at a time: 1. While I agree with you that intelligent life is likely out there, I don't think you would have to be ego-centric to disagree. The odds are not calcuable since we do not know all of the factors contributing to life and/or intelligence. Anyone who thinks they know the answer (either way) is ego centric. 2. Why? We don't know everything about space travel or the properties of the universe. Why is it foolish to think that negotiating hundreds (at least) of light years is something that has not been achieved? We know the task is probably thousands of years out of our grasp (at best). Maybe we've been visited, maybe we haven't, but someone doubting it is not foolish. 3. If conditions 1 and 2 are met then maybe. 206258[/snapback] For some reason, please dont take this as an attack, I picture you as a person with horse blinders on, happily sitting in ignorance. Im not calling you ignorant, rather Im stating that you are content with notion that anything that seems difficult to be true, must NOT be. For a moment, please release yourself from the confines of everything that you know from your life here on earth. In all the zillions of planets out there, there is not 1 that has life as intelligent as ours? THAT my friend, seems virtually impossible. And on that planet, that single planet in the zillions, to think that their intelligent life has advanced at the same rate as us, starting at the same point as us, so that they are only say a few THOUSAND years ahead of us, is absolutely ridiculous! There is EVERY reason to believe as a previous poster stated, that civilizations have risen, visited us as a primordial soup, left, and died out LONG before we were coherent! Einstein, while immensely popular, is only human, and by being human, is strapped by the rules and laws that WE have found/created. If a race of beings has found a way to travel faster than the speed of light, interstellar travel is than possible and furthermore, plausible. At the time of Jesus, how would we humans have considered a personal computer? space travel? impossible? fiction? cant happen? That was only a few thousand year back. How far could a civilization go in say a MILLION years? 500,000 times as long? Thats a VERY VERY long time to develop technologies! And again, that assumes they have equal intelligence and an equal rate of technology development. The shear number of possible planets, possible planets with life, and possible planets with itteligent life is HUGE. The chances that some of those planets have developed faster than us, started much much earlier than us, and have not been constrained by rules that we claim are absolutes throughout the universe is also HUGE. By the easiest look at this, if we are willing to drop the rules that we THINK are absolute, it is so very very likely that we have been visited that it is an almost certain reality. Furthermore, I see NO reason that an intelligent lifeform that has an intention to find a new planet to live on, would have not simply wiped us out in our infancy, or made us into their slaves. Hostility implies a drive to dominate or destroy, in either case a race that can get here can also accomplish either. It is very likely that whoever has come here has done so to watch, maybe to subtely help when times are rough, or to study us. Or who knows, maybe the beings that come here are simply teen-age interstellar punks that are coming here to f_ck with us! I can picture it now, "hey dude, sweet new tat, lets go rip up a corn field on Earth with that tat design". Anyways, humans have a drive to know things. Yet every single time we think we know something we find evidence that in fact it is NOT true.
JP-era Posted January 15, 2005 Posted January 15, 2005 I agree it would be foolish to think that there is no other life out there. Oddly enough, I bet it is more similar to life that is now, or once was on this very planet we live on. (Life is life, the same properties that make up the earth, our solar system, etc. are the same way out there, so therefore, it might be more like looking in a mirror than you think.) As far as inteligent life visiting us, little green men and all, I'm not so sure. We have a fairly good grasp on physics, and traveling thousands of light years is not that easy (physics is physics irregardless of what planet your on). Even if you could travel the distance, you would be thousands of light years old when you got there, and when you finally made it back, who know if the earth would even still exist. We are talking about a really long time you know. When you look up into the sky at night, the light you see coming from all those stars is actually quite old. A star might explode today, a long ways away, but you wouldn't know about it for quite a long time (years). 206306[/snapback] We have a fairly good grasp on what WE believe to be true, using OUR earth and our "system" as the foundation to generate those beliefs. We can "see" so very very little of whats out there. Does anyone really believe that our current list of elements is in fact THE ultimate list? that in fact there are NO other elements out there? Hell, we keep finding new ones right here on this earth! As we advance we constantly uncover things that we never knew existed. How can we claim to have THE rules and THE laws when our most basic beliefs and foundations for science keep changing?
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