welfare versus minimum wage

[Azalin]

When consumers stop spending, doesn't everybody cry?

what generally happens is that the market adjusts. using automobiles as an example, if people aren't buying then the dealers provide incentive, usually by lowering their markup. they make less profit per car, but at least they sell them. in turn, they will save money other ways....less people buying means less salesmen needed, and more emphasis placed on sustaining the automobiles on the road by running specials on authentic manufacturer auto parts in their service departments. when people are spending less, the market will adjust on its own to accommodate consumers.

 

good examples of how things get screwed up can also be found in the auto industry. in the early-mid 70's, japanese imports were like tiny little tin cans compared to american autos. no one payed them much attention until we had our fuel crisis with it's long lines at the gas pump and rationing based on license plate numbers. consumers began to buy more japanese cars, and as they did, the japanese began making them better - more solid, safer, and with increased fuel economy. they drove up the demand for them in the american market. the american auto industry reacted by lobbying lawmakers into placing a tarrif on all imports, which artificially inflated the cost of the japanese cars to the point where people were more likely to 'buy american' due to a relatively equal cost between the japanese cars and the american ones. instead of US automakers rising to the challenge of producing a superior product, they instead had washington intervene, essentially taking the benefit of competition out of the equation. that's one of the reasons there are so many japanese automakers with plants here in the US now. it's more cost effective for them to pay a higher wage to have them built here.

[Tiberius]

what generally happens is that the market adjusts. using automobiles as an example, if people aren't buying then the dealers provide incentive, usually by lowering their markup. they make less profit per car, but at least they sell them. in turn, they will save money other ways....less people buying means less salesmen needed, and more emphasis placed on sustaining the automobiles on the road by running specials on authentic manufacturer auto parts in their service departments. when people are spending less, the market will adjust on its own to accommodate consumers.

 

 

 

Yes, one way the economy adjusts is by having higher unemployment! Don't need that many cars? Don't make as many and lay off the work force which only contributes to the bad situation. Ever hear of the Great Depression? Sure, you are right, it was a buyers market, but so what if no one has two dimes to rub together

 

That's.... that's not what we're talking about... thought I'm not surprised you don't understand that.

 

You've differentiated a small subset of consumer spending, stating that it's essential to the economy, IE. poor people spending all of their money on consumable goods and services is central to a healthy economy. Then you backed that up by stating the the government creates the demand for food.

 

Please source this.

I said the government creates THE demand for food? No, I said, and its no surprise you couldn't comprehend, that food stamps stimulate demand for food. If Joe the Grocer sells a 200 pounds of hamburger to two hundred people with food stamps, don't you think he will put in an order to buy more to sell that much again? That's demand stimulated by food stamps. Does that really need to be sourced??? If it does, don't bother me again as you are not worth the time

 

 

good examples of how things get screwed up can also be found in the auto industry. in the early-mid 70's, japanese imports were like tiny little tin cans compared to american autos. no one payed them much attention until we had our fuel crisis with it's long lines at the gas pump and rationing based on license plate numbers. consumers began to buy more japanese cars, and as they did, the japanese began making them better - more solid, safer, and with increased fuel economy. they drove up the demand for them in the american market. the american auto industry reacted by lobbying lawmakers into placing a tarrif on all imports, which artificially inflated the cost of the japanese cars to the point where people were more likely to 'buy american' due to a relatively equal cost between the japanese cars and the american ones. instead of US automakers rising to the challenge of producing a superior product, they instead had washington intervene, essentially taking the benefit of competition out of the equation. that's one of the reasons there are so many japanese automakers with plants here in the US now. it's more cost effective for them to pay a higher wage to have them built here.

Should we not relaliate against other nations that have tariffs on our cars?

[Azalin]

Yes, one way the economy adjusts is by having higher unemployment! Don't need that many cars? Don't make as many and lay off the work force which only contributes to the bad situation. Ever hear of the Great Depression? Sure, you are right, it was a buyers market, but so what if no one has two dimes to rub together

 

I said the government creates THE demand for food? No, I said, and its no surprise you couldn't comprehend, that food stamps stimulate demand for food. If Joe the Grocer sells a 200 pounds of hamburger to two hundred people with food stamps, don't you think he will put in an order to buy more to sell that much again? That's demand stimulated by food stamps. Does that really need to be sourced??? If it does, don't bother me again as you are not worth the time

 

 

Should we not relaliate against other nations that have tariffs on our cars?

you make Curly Howard look like Albert Einstein. I've known flounder smarter than you.

[Taro T]

you make Curly Howard look like Albert Einstein. I've known flounder smarter than you.

It's not even close between Kent Dorfman and him.

[TakeYouToTasker]

You do agree that people have to have money to spend it to create demand, correct?

 

Do food stamps create demand for agricultural goods?

See, I suppose my problem is that I'm basing my argument on the things you're actually saying rather than the private thoughts you aren't sharing. You know, like in the quote above where you inferred that the government creates demand.

 

With that said, no the government doesn't stimulate the demand for food either. It manipulates the food markets dictating what types of food there will be demand for (picking winners and losers).

 

You need to stop conflating price-consumption curves and demand curves. But since you have no idea what either of those concepts are individually, much less what the difference is; and you're seemingly more than willing to pop off at the mouth espousing drivel to an audience of people who do this for a living, I have no misconceptions about you stoping, and instead am content to laugh at you while you say even dumber things as you dig deeper into your pit of ignorance.

 

[Chef Jim]

 

 

But as real incomes trend down, what other choice does the country have? Almost everything is run by Cheap Debt, Housing, Cars, Schooling, heck even purchses like TV's nowadays.

 

 

No it's not. Cash is and always will be king. Walk in to a furniture store waving cash.

[birdog1960]

some interesting numbers dispelling some common myths: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505143_162-57600587/fast-food-strikes-underline-big-national-problem/

[TakeYouToTasker]

some interesting numbers dispelling some common myths: http://www.cbsnews.c...tional-problem/

I'm going to guess that niether yourself, nor the author, have any idea what the profit margin of a very successful restaurant is. I'm also going to guess that niether of you have any idea of what the successful start-up rate is.

[birdog1960]

this question was debated here as well. lets look at some analysis: http://www.latimes.c...0,6607607.story...about 16% i'd say.

Edited August 29, 2013 by birdog1960

[Jauronimo]

some interesting numbers dispelling some common myths: http://www.cbsnews.c...tional-problem/

Whats interesting about those numbers and what myths do they dispel? Did you even read the article?

[TakeYouToTasker]

A very successful restaurant seeks an annual profit margin of 10%.

 

30% goes towards fixed costs such as rent, maintenence, licencing, fuel, energy costs.

30% goes towards food costs, or atleast it used to until our inflationary environment dove those costs to what it typically between 33-35%

The final 30% gets budgeted towards labor costs, this, however is your only flexible metric.

 

If an owner is seeking 10%, the only place he can make up that ground is in labor. A forced rise in labor costs breaks the business model completely. Then these people with no other marketable stills will be completely **** out of luck, because their job will have been destroyed by their own recklessness and ignorance.

[birdog1960]

Whats interesting about those numbers and what myths do they dispel? Did you even read the article?

i read "the common picture of the fast food worker is inaccurate...". did you read something else?

[Jauronimo]

i read "the common picture of the fast food worker is inaccurate...". did you read something else?

I read that and determined it to be neither interesting or relevant. Furthermore, I found very few figures which supported your case. In your estimation, does that tid bit have any relevance to whether minimum wage should be raised?

[jjamie12]

i read "the common picture of the fast food worker is inaccurate...". did you read something else?

 

I just read a WSJ editorial that directly contradicts this article.

 

From WSJ and According to BLS:

 

71% of min wage workers in the restaurant industry are under the age of 25.

47% are teenagers.

57% of industry workers are students. (Gee, I wonder why the average hours worked per week in the article is 26.4?)

 

Because of the above (most especially the third point), that "yearly income of the average worker" of $12K from the article just doesn't makes sense. It makes even less sense to compare it to the poverty line of $11K.

 

Just thought I'd throw it out there to anyone who wishes to be informed.

 

I realize that the article is talking about 'fast-food' vs. the industry. You must also realize that any changes to law aren't going to only apply to 'fast-food' places.

Edited August 29, 2013 by jjamie12

[B-Man]

Organized Chants for the strikers..............really

 

[DC Tom]

i read "the common picture of the fast food worker is inaccurate...". did you read something else?

 

Funny, I thought everything that article covered was the common picture of a fast food worker.

 

You and the writer have a common picture that's firmly grounded in the '60s, apparently.

 

Organized Chants for the strikers..............really

 

 

When you need cliffs notes for your elementary-school taunts, there's probably a reason you're asking people if they want to supersize their order.

[/dev/null]

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2013/08/29/fast-food-retail-workers-stage-one-day-strike-for-higher-wages/

 

Tyree Johnson said he’s worked at McDonald’s for 21 years, but is still earning minimum wage — $8.25 an hour in Illinois for workers 18 and older; and $7.75 for those under the age of 18, or older employees on the job less than 90 days.

 

“Every time I ask for a raise, they tell me ‘You shouldn’t have joined that union, we’re not giving you no raise,’” he said.

 

Has it occured to him that he could have tried getting a different job sometime in the last 21 years? Maybe join the military? Take some night classes? Learn a trade?

[DC Tom]

http://chicago.cbslo...r-higher-wages/

 

Tyree Johnson said he’s worked at McDonald’s for 21 years, but is still earning minimum wage

 

How does anyone read that and think the problem is he's only making minimum wage?

[Doc]

How does anyone read that and think the problem is he's only making minimum wage?

Because more money solves everything.

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

“Every time I ask for a raise, they tell me ‘You shouldn’t have joined that union, we’re not giving you no raise,’” he said.

 

Wouldn't this be a violation of the Wagner Act? Unfair labor practice (ULP)?

 

(a)(3) "by discrimination in regard to hire or tenure of employment or any term or condition of employment to encourage or discourage membership in any labor organization"