Jauronimo Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 i'd diasgram the logical sequence of this argument but i doubt it would help. I share your conclusion, but likely for very different reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blzrul Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 absolutely true. sweatshops and peasant labor still are quite prevelant in places where they've not been made illegal.if by "stewing", you mean complaining about employers exploiting workers and consequently taxpayers, then i disagree. but i don't think that's what you mean. What I mean is that people seem to waste an inordinate amount of energy worrying about the possibility that a leech will get their hard-earned tax dollars. While no-one likes being taken advantage of, when there isn't a whole lot you can do about it and I'm not sure obsessing over it helps any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 In an age where ease of transport and flow of information has pretty much eradicated any form of natural monopoly do you think getting rid of the minimum wage would result in a sweeping and drastic decrease in the typical unskilled wage? If so, please explain. do you remember this?http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/13/world/asia/hundreds-die-in-factory-fires-in-pakistan.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0. maybe i shouldn't assume that you'll see the connection between this event and your question, but i will anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blzrul Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 do you remember this?http://www.nytimes.c...wanted=all&_r=0. maybe i shouldn't assume that you'll see the connection between this event and your question, but i will anyway. Was it not in the early 1900's that we had a similar experience in NYC? The Shirtwaist Factory I believe? Even though it was "only" women who died (maybe children too) it was the start of the realization that the age of industry was hazardous to workers' health and more than a little unfair in terms of labor practices. Yet people would implement policies that would allow us to go back there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 You disappoint me I often can't tell birddog and lybob apart. It's a weird sort of blind spot I have. do you remember this?http://www.nytimes.c...wanted=all&_r=0. maybe i shouldn't assume that you'll see the connection between this event and your question, but i will anyway. Minimum wage saves lives? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary M Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 not necessarily handicapped. is an IQ of 80 handicapped? is someone with 25th percentile intelligence likely ever to work as a fast food manager? are they likely ever to make more than minimum wagew? by definition, this is 25% of the population and even that number is arbitratry. it may be more like 30-40 that are destined for such work.the current min is $7.25 right? so that's about $1200/mo before taxes. even living alone it's damn near impossible to feed, clothe, transpot and house yourself on that. and a bump in the road or two and your at the title loan place paying 30% interest. the current minimum wage is not a living wage. ridiculous to even argue it. Do you really want these people raising a family? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 Was it not in the early 1900's that we had a similar experience in NYC? The Shirtwaist Factory I believe? Even though it was "only" women who died (maybe children too) it was the start of the realization that the age of industry was hazardous to workers' health and more than a little unfair in terms of labor practices. Yet people would implement policies that would allow us to go back there.... i wonder what friedman would comment here. "they were fortunate to have jobs"? Do you really want these people raising a family? just great...eugenics. not even venturing near there. I often can't tell birddog and lybob apart. It's a weird sort of blind spot I have. it's much the same for me with you and 3rd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 it's much the same for me with you and 3rd He tries to discuss things with you. I just call you an idiot. If you can't tell he and I apart, that says much more about you than it does us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 (edited) the premise of all this "anti-minimum wage" stuff is that companies will do the right thing and wages will reflect value of work, and worker. of course they will do the right thing - for themselves. if there was no floor on wages, and they could get away with paying $.75 an hour, they would. because they're in business to make money - for themselves, and their shareholder. obviously a wage that low is ridiculous, but the point is that companies do not have the welfare of their workers primarily in mind (except Costco). there are unfortunates who don't have many options, for whatever reason. and there are leeches. i pay taxes without complaint because i receive services that benefit me, and i don't mind sharing. it's irritating that leeches take some of it, but as Jesus said "love them all and let God sort them out in the end". it's rather sad how so many people stew over stuff like this. Competition between businesses ensures that this distopian nightmare is nothing more than an empty-headed liberal fantasy. Businesses must compete for quality, qualified labor as well as customers. Businesses cannot slash salaries without losing their valuable people to competitors who offer better compensation. Was it not in the early 1900's that we had a similar experience in NYC? The Shirtwaist Factory I believe? Even though it was "only" women who died (maybe children too) it was the start of the realization that the age of industry was hazardous to workers' health and more than a little unfair in terms of labor practices. Yet people would implement policies that would allow us to go back there.... Again, another liberal myth. The truth being that the labor practices you speak of were mostly done away with through the competition of the labor market long before laws were passed, and those laws didn't even manage to change the few remaining poor conditions. Edited August 22, 2013 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 (edited) do you remember this?http://www.nytimes.c...wanted=all&_r=0. maybe i shouldn't assume that you'll see the connection between this event and your question, but i will anyway. Wow. So had the Pakistani "robber baron" running that little piece of hell paid more for labor by mandate of a minimum wage somehow he would have also had more free cash to spend on capital improvements and safety equipment? Thats a very interesting concept. Tell me more. Edited August 21, 2013 by Jauronimo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 Wow. So had the Pakistani "robber baron" running that little piece of hell paid more for labor by mandate of a minimum wage somehow he would have also had more free cash to spend on capital improvements and safety equipment? Thats a very interesting concept. Tell me more. don't be obtuse. it's about regulation or lack there of including wage standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 don't be obtuse. it's about regulation or lack there of including wage standards. In that case then you make absolutely no !@#$ing sense. We are talking about minimum wage relative to welfare benefits in this country which has labor regulations up the ass. What does Pakistan have to do with anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I often can't tell birddog and lybob apart. It's a weird sort of blind spot I have. weird blind spot? I thought you just had weird liver spots anyways if you're described in the post as a bag of human skin filled with eels and the tears of children - it's probably me, not Birdog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 weird blind spot? I thought you just had weird liver spots anyways if you're described in the post as a bag of human skin filled with eels and the tears of children - it's probably me, not Birdog. Tears of adults. Children just run screaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/519759/posts "I will never refer to any job as 'unskilled labor' anymore," she said. "Every job, especially the minimum wage jobs, requires skill. In fact, the minimum skill jobs were some of the hardest jobs I have ever had." The hardest position Ehrenreich had was easily that of a maid. "This was by far the most physically punishing job that I took part in," she said. "I never even knew jobs like these existed, but I signed up for one when I found it." The maid service she worked for had her do everything from cleaning windows to scrubbing the floor on her hands and knees. The job would not even allow the drinking of fluids while in a house. "I am not a stranger to sweat in large quantities," Ehrenreich said. "But at least I would always be able to replenish -- with water afterwards." What Ehrenreich really discovered in her journey through the "lower-class" world was that everything is not as easy as society makes it seem. "I grew up on blue-collar ethics," she said. "You work hard, work hard, work hard and you would be OK. But I was working harder than I had ever worked in my life and I saw that I was getting nowhere at all." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 http://www.freerepub...ws/519759/posts "I will never refer to any job as 'unskilled labor' anymore," she said. "Every job, especially the minimum wage jobs, requires skill. In fact, the minimum skill jobs were some of the hardest jobs I have ever had." The hardest position Ehrenreich had was easily that of a maid. "This was by far the most physically punishing job that I took part in," she said. "I never even knew jobs like these existed, but I signed up for one when I found it." The maid service she worked for had her do everything from cleaning windows to scrubbing the floor on her hands and knees. The job would not even allow the drinking of fluids while in a house. "I am not a stranger to sweat in large quantities," Ehrenreich said. "But at least I would always be able to replenish -- with water afterwards." What Ehrenreich really discovered in her journey through the "lower-class" world was that everything is not as easy as society makes it seem. "I grew up on blue-collar ethics," she said. "You work hard, work hard, work hard and you would be OK. But I was working harder than I had ever worked in my life and I saw that I was getting nowhere at all." Working at a job that is hard work and one that requires skills are two very different things. Digging ditches is very hard work and is the epitome of unskilled labor. She grew up on blue collar ethics but didn't know that hard jobs like being a maid existed? That cleaning requires you get down on your hands and knees to scrub a floor? Sounds like she grew up a sheltered kid from actual hard work. Do this day I still clean my own house because the people we pay do a ****ty job and I'm on my hands and knees all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 (edited) Working at a job that is hard work and one that requires skills are two very different things. Digging ditches is very hard work and is the epitome of unskilled labor. She grew up on blue collar ethics but didn't know that hard jobs like being a maid existed? That cleaning requires you get down on your hands and knees to scrub a floor? Sounds like she grew up a sheltered kid from actual hard work. Do this day I still clean my own house because the people we pay do a ****ty job and I'm on my hands and knees all the time. I picked up on that too and then realized she meant that she didn't know jobs were out there that were as punishing. It seemed to be worded akwardly and that she was saying NOT that maid jobs existed, everybody knows maid jobs exist. They exist, but not to the punishing degree she dealt with... Like not being able to replenish (water, drink on the job site). Again, you are probably right about her being sheltered. The article is over 10 years old. She probably never knew anyone who worked on an assembly line and had to raise their hand if they wanted to take a dump, let alone replace lost sweat w/water. Yet, those line jobs were well paying so as one was able to raise a family... Again, everybody knows maid jobs exist, especially if one leads a most sheltered life. NOW, on the other hand... If she was raised to do all her own cleaning, ie: not sheltered... Maybe she didn't know people actually pay to have their cleaning done?? Being raised to do her own cleaning... One can take a drink and rest anytime they please? Edited August 22, 2013 by ExiledInIllinois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 I picked up on that too and then realized she meant that she didn't know jobs were out there that were as punishing. It seemed to be worded akwardly and that she was saying NOT that maid jobs existed, everybody knows maid jobs exist. They exist, but not to the punishing degree she dealt with... Like not being able to replenish (water, drink on the job site). Again, you are probably right about her being sheltered. The article is over 10 years old. She probably never knew anyone who worked on an assembly line and had to raise their hand if they wanted to take a dump, let alone replace lost sweat w/water. Yet, those line jobs were well paying so as one was able to raise a family... Again, everybody knows maid jobs exist, especially if one leads a most sheltered life. NOW, on the other hand... If she was raised to do all her own cleaning, ie: not sheltered... Maybe she didn't know people actually pay to have their cleaning done?? Being raised to do her own cleaning... One can take a drink and rest anytime they please? Yeah, that's likely. "A 'maid?' What is this 'maid' thing of which you speak?" How's the weather on your planet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 I picked up on that too and then realized she meant that she didn't know jobs were out there that were as punishing. It seemed to be worded akwardly and that she was saying NOT that maid jobs existed, everybody knows maid jobs exist. They exist, but not to the punishing degree she dealt with... Like not being able to replenish (water, drink on the job site). Again, you are probably right about her being sheltered. The article is over 10 years old. She probably never knew anyone who worked on an assembly line and had to raise their hand if they wanted to take a dump, let alone replace lost sweat w/water. Yet, those line jobs were well paying so as one was able to raise a family... Again, everybody knows maid jobs exist, especially if one leads a most sheltered life. NOW, on the other hand... If she was raised to do all her own cleaning, ie: not sheltered... Maybe she didn't know people actually pay to have their cleaning done?? Being raised to do her own cleaning... One can take a drink and rest anytime they please? Oh I know what she meant that she didn't know jobs that difficult ever existed. I was delivering newspapers at 12 carrying around a bag of Buffalo Evening (yes evening) News and Batavia Daily on my bike. I had a dog fly through a glass door at me and got stuck in a snow bank and almost run over by a snow plow. I had burn and knife scars on my arms and hands when I was 14. They told her she couldn't drink while working probably so she wouldn't mess up the toilets she cleaned. Did she ask why? If they told me that I'd say "tell you what, I'll drink all day and piss in the toilets and clean them last as I'm leaving." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 "I will never refer to any job as 'unskilled labor' anymore," she said. "Every job, especially the minimum wage jobs, requires skill. In fact, the minimum skill jobs were some of the hardest jobs I have ever had." I won't dispute that. I've only had one minimum wage job and it was probably the hardest job I ever had. I was 16/17 and worked at Burger King. Fast food work is crappy work. But it taught me a lot of lessons, like how to be on time, how to take orders from your boss, how you don't always get to do what you want to do and often have to do stuff you'd rather not. All kinds of valuable work ethic lessons. It also taught me two personal lessons. First, minimum wage jobs are not full time occupations. Strive for something better. Second, before I got my first paycheck I was so happy. It was my money, I earned it and I was going to spend it and had all kinds of ideas what I was going to buy with it. Then I got the check and had a serious WTF moment. The number was lower than I was expecting. I asked my manager what was up and she said taxes. I went home and asked my Dad what all that crap was, and he explained the way the real world works Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts